.450 Marlin vs. 45-70

[Forester]

Aside from the obvious differences in the case, is there any reason to have a preference between the .450 Marlin and .45-70 in a new manufacture gun? I have been looking around for a new levergun recently and can’t seem to find a good reason to have a preference between these two.

FWIW, I will probably want to shoot a boolit in the 350-450gr range and push it as fast as it will be safe and accurate - I do tend to be a glutton for punishment sometimes [smilie=b:

[Parson]

The reason Marlin and Hornady put together the 450 was in response to requests that Hornady was getting from Alaska guides. The loved the short barrel Marlins in 45-70 for back up but wanted a hot factory round, they did not want to reload. Hornady was not comfortable loading a hot 45-70 for fear someone would put one in a trapdoor or whatever, so they convinced Marlin to chamber the 450 which is no more than a hot 45-70 ballistically. So, to answer your question, if you reload they booth will do the same as the other, no real advange. Personally I dont like a belted case for reloading, they tend to get nicked up in the feeding process and need to be cleaned up periodically but its not a problem we cant live with

[wiljen]

I'd second Parson's comments. I tend to like the 45-70 as it is available in a much broader range of guns than the 450. Since I do handload, I can load 45-70s from 1200fps (using unique) all the way up through 2500fps (used only in my Ruger #1). I'm reasonably certain I can do anything the 450 can without the belt and the attendant hassles created by it.

[SharpsShooter]

45-70 = Beltless 450 Marlin. They are so close ballistically that you could not tell them apart with handloaded ammo. The brass for the 45-70 is both cheaper and readily available almost anywhere. I agree with those gents that posted prior to me, the versatility of the old warhorse if far greater than the 450.

If you enjoy the recoil, I'd reccomend a 514gr Paper Patch boolit at 1600+ fps. It is not unlike being struck by lightning each time you fire and will provide your friends with hours of amusement watching you shoot.



SS

[Forester]

If you enjoy the recoil, I'd reccomend a 514gr Paper Patch boolit at 1600+ fps. It is not unlike being struck by lightning each time you fire and will provide your friends with hours of amusement watching you shoot.

SS

I'm just dumb--(young?) enough to think that might be fun:roll: The local deer and coyote population should be terrified.

It sounds like my first thoughts were about right. I will probably try and find a 45-70 to play with since the brass will be easier to get ahold of.

Since I have only been casting a few months now I have to ask. I have seen the term "paper patched" before but never have read anything about casting that type of boolit. Can someone point me in a good direction to do some reading?

[9.3X62AL]

If you enjoy the recoil, I'd reccomend a 514gr Paper Patch boolit at 1600+ fps. It is not unlike being struck by lightning each time you fire and will provide your friends with hours of amusement watching you shoot.SS

SS, that kinda recoil enjoyment requires being dropped on yer head as an infant several times, I believe. I can only imagine the recreational potential of loads like that in my 7-1/4# Ruger #1. "Struck by lightning", indeed--or maybe by Brian Urlacher straight-on. Have paramedics pre-staged, methinks.

+1 for the 450 Marlin/45-70 comparison.

[Scrounger]

I'm just dumb--(young?) enough to think that might be fun:roll: The local deer and coyote population should be terrified.

It sounds like my first thoughts were about right. I will probably try and find a 45-70 to play with since the brass will be easier to get ahold of.

Since I have only been casting a few months now I have to ask. I have seen the term "paper patched" before but never have read anything about casting that type of boolit. Can someone point me in a good direction to do some reading?

I copied this from somewhere, probably right here at Cast Boolits, so it is not mine, most likely Buckshot or somebody. This instruction should be posted at Castpics if the caretaker happens to read this...

Subject:
(required)
Message: Replying To: ........Paper patching in itself is simple in the
extreme. It consists simply of wrapping a piece of paper around a
projectile. On further thought about Forty Four's question re: patching hard
cast bullets, the answer would be an emphatic yes. Recalling now Ross
Seyfried's very first published article, which is safely tucked away in my
info piles, dealt with paper patching Hornaday 500gr 45 cal condom slugs up
to .472" for use in a .470 Nitro Express double rifle. Results were perfect.
The bare basics are nothing more that covering a lead bullet's bearing
surface with a double (usually) wrap of paper, and having it long enough to
allow turning in, past the base. And that's it in it's minimalist form. So,
to elaborate a little: Paper: Doesn't have to be anything special. No
'banknote' paper, etc. It does have to be able to stand being dampened and
then stretched somewhat as it's wrapped around the bullet. So no newsprint!
Commonly avail useable paper is, dress pattern .001-.0015, 9# bond .002, 16#
or med typing .003-.0035, 20# std typing .004", and 24# .0045". These are
somewhat variable except the 9# 25% cotton airmail paper is very consistant
at .002". It's also high quality and 100 sheets cost about what a ream of
typing paper costs. A friend once used 4 color advert newspaper inserts to
patch up bullets for his 577-450! Very colorfull and fun when fired, with
all those colored bits floating around. It worked fine too. Paper selection
is primarily based upon what the finished diameter of the bullet needs to
be. By pre-sizing the lead bullet, and selecting your paper or careful
sizing after patching you can get most any diameter you need. Depending upon
how wet the patch goes on, and how much you stretch it will also have an
effect on the dry diameter. I mainly use the 9# paper and after drying it
adds almost exactly .007" for .001" shrinkage and it's on TIGHT! The
mechanics of the deal: Paper has a grain like a board and cutting with the
grain means the paper won't stretch as much. I prefer to cut across the
grain. It stretches more so it seems to grip the bullet better. Cutting
paper to make a template for future use is pretty much a series of 'tries'.
I first measure the width of the paper which is simply laying the bullet
down and marking from about 1/16" beyond the start of the ogive to about
1/8" (or so) past the base. An item of detail is that some say to leave
enough to twist into a tail at the base and it's clipped off when dry. Ya
can if ya wanna. Then you wrap the bullet 3 times and then clip a notch
through the layers of paper at the point where you began (the beginning edge
of the paper). Unroll the paper and the distance from the beginning to the
2nd notch is your beginning 'try' distance. I use manilla file folder
material for my templates. The template is cut in the form of a
parallelogram ( a leaning rectangle :-)) with about a 35-40 degree list.
Your piece of paper's bottom left corner is the bottom left corner 'point',
and the 2nd notch is the templates bottom right corner 'point'. Use your
template to cut a patch, dampen it and wrap'er on. The edges will overlap
some little bit. Eyeball that amount and cut it off the template and do the
wrapping again until it gives you a piece of paper wrapped on the slug with
the end edges just almost touching. Later on, as you get the feel for your
paper and how much dampening and stretching it will take, you may have to
adjust the template again. Naturally, the more it's stretched the longer
it'll be. Once wrapped on I use my thumb and finger to bend the excess paper
at the base around the edge while rotating the bullet. Kinda like the first
crimp former on a shotshell reloader. Then put the bullet base down on a
hard smooth surface and rotate the bullet while pressing down. Congrats,
your first paper jacketed slug! When dry, that paper patch will look as if
it was painted on. If you have to pre-size the lead bullet, all traces of
lube have to be removed before patching. You can figure your own way to do
that. Since I use'em for hunting vs long range target stuff I take a very
soft .458" lube groove bullet as cast and wrap it up. Then I lube the patch
(Lee Liq Alox is great for this) and run the whole shebang into a .459" die.
The quick and lazy way. Another good lube is spray moly lube that's sold
very cheaply in machine shops. Anything that doesn't soak the paper turning
it transparent is fine. If it soaks the paper, it'll get between the bullet
and patch and things will not be rosey accuracy wise. As to bullets, for
general shooting I do not believe you need a special slug for patching. A
regular lube groove design works just fine. I think that those designed for
smokless powder may be the better of the type since their lube grooves are
generally narrower and shallower. When the patch dries it will shrink into
the grooves somewhat and these depressions will hold extra lube if you're
using a non spray type and possibly even help in keeping the patch on. I
rolled some lead slugs across a coarse double cut file to produce some
knurling before paper patching but don't really know that it made any
phantasmagorical wonderment of an improvement in anything at all, but it was
something to do. For the bullets I patched and used in the M91/30 M-N rifle
I used the Lyman 311284 slug without a gas check and with a gas check. The
ones 'with' had the paper wrapped on normally over the copper diaper. I sure
couldn't see any difference in what they were doing at 50 yards. Just the
drive bands were patched as the nose of this slug at .301" was a snug slip
fit in the bore. The diameter over the drive bands after patching was .316"
as I sized the bullets to .309" before patching. As with regular cast
bullets you do have to bell the case mouths so as to not tear the patch, but
you can use a much tighter neck tension on the bullet. Also, once wehn
shooting some Liquid Alox lubed patched bullets in my 577-450 I found that
some of the casenecks still had paper stuck to the inside. This ammo had
been loaded a couple of months and I guess the lube hardened as the volatile
evaporated out and stuck pretty good to the caseneck. Since these were .458"
slugs patched up to .472" with 20# paper that wrap that didn't go down the
barrel with the bullet caused about a .006" reduction in bullet diameter!
Didn't seem to make any difference in what I was doing since I didn't think
anything about it till I happened to look in the neck of one of the cases.
But since the Martini is .450"x.460", loosing that 6 thou from a .472"
bullet didn't affect much I guess. But since the Brits patched up a .465"
slug to .472" for the same rifle, that's what I did. After a day of shooting
PP'd slugs and you look down the barrel, it will appear that the thing
hasn't been fired much, if at all. That is assuming you have a good
efficient load that doesn't leave a lot of crud behind. Shooting a patched
bullet through a leaded barrel will also clean it out too! There is also a
couple considerations. One which I hate to bring up and that is wear from
patched bullets. Paper IS abrasive and I honestly believe that some takes
place. However abrasive is a relative term. I think that a burnishing effect
is more in line with what really happens. I bring it up only because someone
else might, so I want to agree before that happens!:>) But I don't think
that continual firing of patched bullets will cause any problems in anyone's
lifetime. The other is a genuine cause for pause and that is lube picking up
dirt/dust/etc. Since a portion of the patch is exposed and if a wax type
lube is used it could happen. As a concession in the direction of
anti-abrasiveness, I don't use any recycled paper for patching bullets.
Transport to the range in a plastic cartridge box presents no problem with
dirt as those patched bullets are 'bullet down' in the box on the bench when
the top is off. When hunting, I doubt one or two dirty rounds fired will
turn your 45-70 (or whatever)into a .69 Cal smoothbore, but it's something
to think about. The same thing may happen with naked cast lead slugs too, so
there you have it. I will admit to a certain amount of vanity, so when
patching bullets for the range I usually use a beeswax/Vaseline lube,
applied by hand after the slug is seated. Why? Because I want to show off
that nice white patch, that's why! And Liq Alox makes it murky brown and
spray moly makes it look like a regular cast slug unless you look close!
That 577-450 case is neat enough but with a patched 405gr Lee only seated
about 1/8" deep (gotta be to touch the leade!) it's a real wowser.
.........Buckshot

[Mk42gunner]

If you like recoil, I can definately recommend a Ruger #1 in 45-70 with 400 grain bullets and large doses of 3031. :shock:
This combination will turn you into a believer in light loads.

That said, 45-70's are a lot of fun; you can have everything from original blackpowder loads to loads your daughter can shoot all day long to loads you woudn't wish on an ex-wife.


Robert

[NickSS]

Everything said about the 45-70 is true and I have loads that go from shooting mice with a round ball to equivalent loads to old english elephant rifles. Infinate flexibility. Several years ago I loaded some loads with 54 gr of IMR 4895 and a 400 gr Remington soft point as Bear medicine for a fishing trip to Alaska. I had to put a sand bag between me and my Marlin 95 to sight it in and even then I got a headake from wiplash. It was an accurate load though putting three into less than 2 inches at 100 yards. I never needed them for the bear medicine but a year later I used one to kill an elk. The shot was at about 80 yards and it died like it was pole axed on the top of the head by Paul Bunyan.

[BAGTIC]

NICKSS,

I once loaded some 600 grain cast bullets that chronographed 1900 fps from a Browning M78. Even with a sissy bag it was [.B]too much [/B]off the bench. Offhand it was tolerable but not pleasant. Never again.

[Johnch]

I had a Ruger #3 in 45/70 for years till I needed to pay bills a few years back .:( :(
I had the nice brass butt plate
Can't remember exactly how much it weighted ( about 6 lb ? ) but it kicked like something out of a horror film . :drinks:
I loaded 20 full Ruger #1 loads , they took 8 trips to the range to shoot up , I let some fool shoot the last 3

I would just buy the 45/70 and enjoy

Johnch

[Castaway]

Forester, paper patching is simply wrapping two wraps of paper over a bullet that is roughly 0.008" less in diameter than the caliber you are loading for. Generally it is used for large calibers allowing you to shoot putty soft lead bullets at velocities that would normally lead the barrel. Various papers can be used, from sewing pattern paper to 25 lb. paper associated with copy maching paper. Usually something in between is used. Personally, I use a 0.452 bullet with two wraps of 16 lb. paper and can get close to MOA in my 45-70.

[Forester]

Once again this board is a wealth of information. The flexibility that exists for the 45-70 would be the same for the .450 though right? The reason I ask is I have seen several .450s at gun shows that were lightly used and quite a bit cheaper.

With safe reloading practices (starting low and working up) you could use 45-70 load data for a .450 as well right?--obviously not the load data that is intended for a ruger #1 or bolt action rifle of any kind.

[Ranch Dog]

Forester... I have both the 45-70 (1895G) and 450M (1895MR) and I honestly don't know why you couldn't use the same data as long as the 45-70 is for leverguns. I'll always read not to use the same stuff but yet a program such as Load For A Disk is going to generate pretty much the same. Even the data in pubs like Hodgdon's annual is very close.

Like I said, I have both, and reload both. The only difference I've noticed is in the brass, the cost might be higher for the 450M, but it is still pretty close. On the 450 Marlin I have lost a few cases to the shellholder pulling the rim off the case. It is a pretty thin rim. I've learned to really lube those cases so that I don't end up with a stuck case disrupting my reloading operation.

Of the two, I personally favor the 450 Marlin. I'm not sure why other than may be it is the rifle (MR vs. M) which was available for only a short time. I have read that the loading cycle from magazine tube to chamber is smoother with the 450M cartridge compared to the 45-70 and there is no doubt about that but that is really small potatoes.

I too was offered a 1895M at a gun show for $350 because I just bought a 444P for $400 and it was the first rifle the dealer had sold in two days. Both rifles were NIB and I was a fool for not slapping up the 1895M.

[BABore]

You shouldn't use the same data because of the case capacity difference. I too have both and there is almost a 7 grain capacity difference between the Hornady 450 cases and the Winchester 45-70. It will make a difference. Even different brands of 45-70 cases have quite a spread. You wouldn't want to work up a load in Winny cases, then switch to Remington's. Also the nickle plated cases will show a higher pressure reading than straight brass ones.

I'm talking top end lever gun loads here. The 45-70 is listed at 38-40k cup, and the 450 is 43.5k psi. They are roughly equivilent. In Marlins, both cartridges use the same action, but the 450 uses a different barrel thread type to provide more strength. None the less you should stick to pressure tested data. Lever guns, operating in this pressure range do not show excessive pressure signs like higher operating pressure rounds. Traditional flattened primers and sticky extraction is not just a little warm in a Marlin, It's way the hell over. Even measuring case head expansion is not recommended here. This little rant comes from both personal experience and from a commercial loader, of high end big bore ammo that has had his stuff pressure tested by Hodgdon's lab.

About the only sane statement would be that you could use 450 Marlin data in the 45-70. Not the other way around.