Paper Patching 45-70 Gov ?? Trapdoor Rifle

[DoctorBill]

I just bought an H&R Inc 45-70 Trapdoor Black Powder Rifle - NEW - at a gun show.
It has never been fired from what I can tell by looking at it.

That company went out of business in 1987 from what I can glean off the Internet.
In business for 115 years - Worcester, Massachusetts.

Wonder why ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/a89b7ce263.jpg

A big 'P' on left side of receiver and on the underside of the butt end of the stock.

???????

http://www.mynetimages.com/06e793aa6a.jpg

Is/was this a good rifle ?

I am wondering if I can Paper Patch for that caliber ?

DoctorBill

[elk hunter]

DocB,

Nice carbine.

I never owned an H&R trapdoor, but can't help but think they would be a good shooter.

PP bullets should work fine. Since the government carbine load was standardized at 55 grains of powder and a 405 grain bullet, to reduce recoil, I would look for a heavy weight bullet for the 45 Colt at .452 diameter and patch it up to .458 or so, and go have fun.

[Good Cheer]

My brother worked the kinks out of paper paper for his 45-70, a scoped 1885 High Wall. And then it was stolen along with almost everything else. But, he had developed rather punishing pure lead paper patched hunting loads that printed groups of less than one bullet diameter at over 100 yards. So, yes, it can be done with much success. I was always afraid he was going to give himself shaken baby syndrome.

[Don McDowell]

The original Sharps 45 2.1 load was a 420 gr patched bullet on top of 75 grs of powder.
I shoot a .444 diameter 420 gr bullet patched with 9lb onionskin,a 060 fiber wad a 1/8 in lubed felt wad and a .030 fiber wad, over 72 grs of 2f. I can shoot several rounds before it's necessary to swab the bore or use a blow tube.

[scattershot]

Beautiful rifle, you don't see them in that condition very often.

[DoctorBill]

I bought the LEE 3 DIE Set today for $25, the LEE Case Trimmer for $4 and
50 Winchester Brass Cases for $39 from our local Discount Sporting Goods store (White Elephant).

My God, have Brass prices shot up ! (non-ferrous metal prices went way up).

We need a new President, a new Congress and some intelligence in Washington, DC !

My machinist friend, Gary, says that according to an author named Wolfe,
I should shoot soft bullets instead of wheel weight bullets.

Wolf says accuracy goes to Hell with wheel weight bullets in the 45-70 rifles.

I have some .457-450 GG Bullets made from wheel weights ready to load !

Is this rubbish or not ?

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Paper patched bullets don't make much difference, shooting grease grooves it may or may not.

[DoctorBill]

What 44 cal bullet mold are you using ? Lyman, RCBS, etc ?

LEE does not make a large 44 caliber rifle bullet mold for a paper patched bullet.!

DoctorBill

[nanuk]

in a previous life, a friend of mine showed me one of these

I had an original 1873 at the time so passed when he told me the seller had another. IIRC, the price back then was around $400.

I should have bought it. it was a fun gun to shoot

hindsight is always 20/20

[Don McDowell]

I'm using a nosepour adjustable mould from Old West bullet moulds in Fruita Co.

You can get some swaged bullets in that weight from Buffalo Arms.

[montana_charlie]

I bought the LEE 3 DIE Set today for $25, the LEE Case Trimmer for $4
Don't be trimming any 45/70 brass until you have fired it, and then only after you know how deep your chamber is.

'Short' cases can cause leading with grease grooved bullets, and paper rings shaved from patched ones.

CM

[Lead pot]

Please someone tell me why a WW bullet wont shoot good???

I been using WW and WW mixes along with pure lead tin mixes all my shooting life and I cant tell the difference in there performance.
When I read comments like this makes me wonder if they even cast or shot cast bullets.

[Freightman]

Please someone tell me why a WW bullet wont shoot good???

I been using WW and WW mixes along with pure lead tin mixes all my shooting life and I cant tell the difference in there performance.
When I read comments like this makes me wonder if they even cast or shot cast bullets.
It is a conspiracy to keep more W-W for them selves, I do not know how much more accurate I could stand from my 45/70's my heart flutters at some of the groups already and with W-W only.

[Don McDowell]

Please someone tell me why a WW bullet wont shoot good???

I been using WW and WW mixes along with pure lead tin mixes all my shooting life and I cant tell the difference in there performance.
When I read comments like this makes me wonder if they even cast or shot cast bullets.

Don't know but I think it has alot to do with the antimony content of wheelweights nowdays. As you know it's almost impossible for me to get enough wheelweights to amount to anything, but the last few batches I have got lead something fierce. I didn't have that problem with the older wheelweights I accumalted 20 someodd years ago.
With the last batch of new wheelweights I got ahold of I decided to use the last of the 50-50 solder bars I had in captivity to make up some #2 alloy.... :groner: What I got in the end was an alloy that you could probably use to shoot thru a german tiger tank at 2 miles from a 40-65, it was so hard....

[Lead pot]

Don.

My Son In Law is a service manager and he brings me a lot of WW but I told him dont bring anymore because I dont want to go through several buckets full of Ww sorting out the new **** they use now.
I melted down a 100 pound batch last spring I must have missed some of the WW made of zinc or what ever they now use and it stuck to the ladle and sidewall of the pot and had butter like stuff floating on top I could not flux into the mix. I pitched the whole batch.
When my several hundred pound batch of ingots from the old stuff runs out then I will quit using WW

[Don McDowell]

Kurt I've got a bucket full of the old ones I've hung onto for 20 years , and I'm going to keep them so that at least I have something to load hunting bullets from should things get real tuff.
I liked shooting those wheelweights when you could count on them being somewhat uniform and making a dependable alloy.
My banker tells me he knows a salvage yard that has a mountain of old wheelweights in the back that he can get for 5$ a bucket.. I might go check them out if I get a chance to get to town.

[DoctorBill]

I have about 300 lbs of WW ingots that I cast.

Yes - I noticed that the newer ones had some strange characteristics.
Whiter color of my newer 1 lb ingots.
Sometimes a Butt Load of mushy metal floated to the top - I skimmed it off.

Went to a metal recycling place and ask for lead - they lead (ha !) me to a couple
of 55 drums full of huge electrodes and Plumber's Sheet Lead.

If these new ingots yield Rubbish, then I will add some pure lead from the Plumber's Sheet Lead
to get it back to what it used to be like.

I want to make some pure lead .457 bullets to resize down to .451 so's I can
paper patch them for the Trapdoor 45-70.

Pure Lead ought to be soft enough to allow me to do that.

I have a LEE .457 sizer and another LEE .451 sizer is only $18 here.

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Dr. Bill try it if you like but you'll likely end up wasting a goodly amount of time and lead and not be able to hit the broadside of a barn.

[DoctorBill]

Don McDowell - Why would you say that ?

I am shooting Paper Patched 577/450's and hit the 500 Yard Gong several times
with my Martini-Henry !

Quigley reloaded Paper Patched bullets....
Paul Matthews wrote a book on Paper Patching the 45-70 bullet (The Paper Jacket).
Supposedly about 1/3 of the Buffalo killed in the old West were done in with PP Bullets.
About five hundred of Zulus met their end from a paper patched bullet....
http://britishbattles.com/zulu-war/rorkes-drift.htm

...or are you referring to something else ?

Maybe I misinterpreted your meaning...?

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Properly done paper patched bullets can be marvelously accurate. Unfortunately for you "properly done" may not include trying to size down a grease groove bullet to a size that is larger in diameter without the paper than a properly patched bullet is.
Keep it simple and either get a decent patched bullet mould or buy some slicks from BACO or other supplier and get some good results.

[DoctorBill]

"Unfortunately for you "properly done" may not include trying to size down a
grease groove bullet to a size that is larger in diameter without the paper than
a properly patched bullet is."

? ? ?

Don McDowell - Thank you for that advice.

I like to try different things, push the envelope, see what happens...
do those things that others say can't be done. Have fun and not worry.

Perhaps I have been on this forum for too long !

GUSA #6
People will forget what you said...
People will forget what you did...
But People will NEVER forget how you made them feel

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Unless I mistyped something, I don't get this.

My H&R Trapdoor 1873 slugs out to 0.445 in to 0.461 inch.

My LEE Mold drops 0.459 slugs which I want to size to 0.457 then resize to 0.451 inch final.

Then I want to Paper Patch that 0.451 bullet to 0.458 or .459 final diameter with the patch on the bullet.

I have said this all along - did I say it wrong ?

Do you not shoot bullets at 0.458 final diameter in this rifle ?

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Just knock your socks off, have a good time, I'm sure it'll produce national championship type accuracy....

[greywuuf]

DrBill,

What you have said is clear, what I THINK was implied ( and be warned this is only my gatherings from other PP threads as i have not done this my self) is that A: some people feel the "proper" Pp bullets do not have Lube grooves. B: Sizing bullets down is detrimental to accuray and C: a purpouse build PP bullet fora 45-70 will be smaller than .451.

All that being said you will find numerous example of people doing exactly as you suggest and it seems to be quite workable.

I am all for just doing you thing with what you have, if you are not happy with it or want to pursue it further, then by all means look to a Smooth sided small PP custom bullet.

Have fun and let us know !

[RMulhern]

:killingpc:groner::violin::popcorn::dung_hits_fan: :awesome::2 drunk buddies:

[montana_charlie]

Then I want to Paper Patch that 0.451 bullet to 0.458 or .459 final diameter with the patch on the bullet.

I have said this all along - did I say it wrong ?

Do you not shoot bullets at 0.458 final diameter in this rifle ?

There are two schools of thought on paper patching bullets.
To begin, smokeless powder doesn't cause a lead bullet to bump in the same way that black powder does.

Therefore, if you wanted to paper patch a bullet to be fired with smokeless, you MUST patch to groove diameter (.459" in your case). That is the only way to assure that the bullet/patch 'package' seals the bore at the instant of firing.

Since black powder will bump a bullet up almost instantaneously, you CAN patch to bore diameter (.445" in your case), and that is the method chosen by many black powder shooters.

The reasons for that choice can be varied, but if a couple of inherent disadvantages can be overcome, it is a very effective way to paper patch.

Which method constitutes a 'properly patched bullet' depends on your goal.

However, the fact that smokeless powder demands patched to groove doesn't mean that 'packages' of groove diameter can't be used with black powder.
Martinibelgian, your mentor in the other thread uses groove diameter, and so do I. We may be in a minority, but we are not alone.
Lead Pot, another of your advisors, patches from 'slightly under bore' to 'almost groove' depending on which diameter works best in a given circumstance.

And, patched to groove sidesteps the disadvantages I alluded to earlier.

The actual shape of your chamber can be a clue as to which method you might find most succesful. But, to know that requires a chamber casting to look at and measure.
Some of the old chambers were intended for paper patched bullets, with their interior shapes and dimensions aimed at that practice. They wouldn't accept a bullet (or 'package') bigger than bore diameter. Some modern-made chambers may share one or more of the features found in the old-time rifles ... and maybe not.

Since my own chamber has the standard (modern) interior, designed for the grease grooved bullets, I chose to try patched to groove. It worked for me, and should work for anybody with a similar chamber.
I cast a .454" bullet and wrap it with 9-pound onionskin paper for a 'package' of .459".
This will slip snugly into a fired case mouth with just finger pressure.

A .452" bullet also works fine, but it doesn't fill the unsized case mouth as snugly.

I chronicled my decision for, and delving into patching to groove. There were some ups, and downs ... and a side trip, or two ... but it worked out.
If you are interested in the journey, it's here ...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=42529

CM

[Don McDowell]

One thing that some of the paper patch experts haven't pointed out yet, is the rifle in question is a trapdoor.
Any of the experts here have any idea about what's going to happen when he tries to close that breech on the second round of groove diameter patched bullet , without wiping the bore???????
Never mind what's going to happen to that patch when he tries to close the breech with that 459 patched bullet into the 445 bore he claims to have....

[Lead pot]

Why is it when some guy asks a question and then argues the advice given.
Don is right. A TD with a patched bullet to groove diameter is death to accuracy unless it is deep seated so the round is set back off the throat.
The TD was shot with lubed bullets for fast reloading and the action is designed to cam the bullet in with a fouled throat something not advisable with a PP bullet.
I shoot PP bullets in the two of the original TD's I have, but they are patched so they will drop in the chamber with out pressure pushing them in and I never use smokeless in these rifles.

[RMulhern]

Unless I mistyped something, I don't get this.

My H&R Trapdoor 1873 slugs out to 0.445 in to 0.461 inch.

My LEE Mold drops 0.459 slugs which I want to size to 0.457 then resize to 0.451 inch final.

Then I want to Paper Patch that 0.451 bullet to 0.458 or .459 final diameter with the patch on the bullet.

I have said this all along - did I say it wrong ?

Do you not shoot bullets at 0.458 final diameter in this rifle ?

DoctorBill

DB

Have you ever tried stacking greased BBs while standing on your head in a rolling boxcar with boxing gloves on??[smilie=1::roll:

[DoctorBill]

If I were to buy a straight sided, paper patch bullet mold (mould) for this rifle,
what diameter bullet would be best ?
I would patch to groove - 0.457 to 0.459 in my H&R. Right ? !

"a purpose build PP bullet for a 45-70 will be smaller than .451." What size then ?

What grain size ?

Who sells them ?

Looks to be 1 turn in 22 inches with the patch on cleaning rod method.
http://www.mynetimages.com/8431eaaeda.jpg

Instead of just High School type criticism, wise cracks and ridicule, how about some help and information.

I was hoping that I'd find better on this CAST BOOLITS Forum.
The tone has changed...
"Have you ever tried stacking greased BBs while standing on your head in a rolling boxcar with boxing gloves on??"
"Why is it when some guy asks a question and then argues the advice given."
"...going to happen when he tries.../....he claims to have...."

From some PMs I've received, people are driven away from posting here and won't come back on.
Not good for the Forum - may get a bad reputation.

I know two shooters here in Spokane who won't get on Shooting and Reloading Forums anymore
because of this very thing.

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

In that rifle a .441 diameter bullet 1.1 inches long would be about right, going with a .440 diameter might not hurt with the bore measurement of .445 you gave.
Best bet if you don't have a machinist build a mould, would be to go with one of the "custom" makers adjustable moulds. Old West probably the least expensive, the last one I got from Bernie was 125, his blocks will use the lee 6 cavity handles.

Patching to bore means the final diameter of the bullet will be the same as or a touch smaller than the bore measurement. Patching to groove means the bullet is the same or smaller than the groove diameter.
Patching to bore is more forgiving trying to load a second shot without wiping or blowtubing the barrel.
Patching to groove almost guarantees you have to wipe the bore clean to shoot the second shot, without getting into a terrible mess with leading ,paper rings and all that can crud things up when the patch gets torn up prematurely.

[Simonpie]

From the looks of your slug, your rifling is considerably different than an original trapdoor. Mine has 3 grooves and lands and they are equal in width. Not really a problem, but advice on bullet diameter may be a bit off, since your groove diameter appears to be a bigger percentage of the bore. Most of the Wolf info was based on original barrels.

I've never paper patched, so feel free to ignore me.
Good luck.

[DoctorBill]

I lieu of me ordering a true paper patch bullet right now (money ?), I am going
to shoot my GG LEE Cast bullets sized to 0.457 (lubed).

Now that I am done reforming 577/450 Brass Cases for my Martini-Henry,
I am working on loading up 45-70's for my H&R Trapdoor referred to in
previous posts. (0.447 - 0.461)

Here is one of my cases with a LEE .457-450 gr bullet inserted.

http://www.mynetimages.com/0b02ec6ba0.jpg

Does this look alright ?
The line on the case is where the bullet seats to to make 2.54 inches OAL.

I usually make a "Snap Cap" like this to load into my rifles and "play with'....
Inner Tube Rubber hot melt glued into the primer hole & razor blade trimmed flat.

The line is where the bullet goes in to.

NOW....these are compressed Black Powder loads, am I correct ?

It is 51.2 grains of Fg GOEX to the line on the case right now.

I am somewhat new to BP Cartridges and my Martini-Henry cases are so huge
that I have not done a compressed load yet.

Kinda has me concerned - compressing an explosive.....

What load would you expurts recommend that I go for - first time around ?
Maybe 55 grains of Fg GOEX ?

Should I use a paper disk under the Bullet to keep the Lube from the BP ?

DoctorBill

PS - SMOKELESS POWDER - According to Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook,
3rd Edition, page 233, I ought to be able to use 33 grains of Reloader 7
plus a fiber wad as a minimum load for this Bullet in a Trapdoor Rifle -
separate tables for other types of 45-70's.

They show a 420 grain with 33 grains RL 7, but being the minimum load,
a 450 grain bullet should be OK - probably a "Thumper".....

Also - if I go for RL-7, I can use the LEE Liquid Alox lube instead of some BP
Lube like I have for my Martini-Henry.

[mazo kid]

My machinist friend, Gary, says that according to an author named Wolfe,
I should shoot soft bullets instead of wheel weight bullets. Wolf says accuracy goes to Hell with wheel weight bullets in the 45-70 rifles. I have some .457-450 GG Bullets made from wheel weights ready to load ! Is this rubbish or not ?
DoctorBill
Wolfe is referring to ORIGINAL Trapdoor rifles in his book. The soft lead was needed to bump up into the rifling as bore sizes were not as standardized then as they are today. They ranged all the way up to maybe .460". WW should shoot OK in your contemporary rifle. My 2 cents worth.

[powderburnerr]

have you tried chambering that round , I tried that bullet in a couple chambers and the nose was too big . Way to big with a fouled bore,just for informational purposes. dont know of yours.

the softer bullets if tight in the chamber will load easier than hard onew with the camming action of your rifle if needed

And you should be able to put 60-70 gns of black under that bullet , 61 to 64 is a good accurate load in most rifles with a 500 gn bullet.1F is most comfortable

[DoctorBill]

The nose before the lube rings is 0.452 inch diameter.

My H&R Model 1873's bore is 0.447 - 0.461 inch (slugged).

My Snap Cap (2.54 inch OAL) fits perfectly and does not engrave.

DoctorBill

BTW - a Hot Melt Glue Stick fits into the 45-70 case like a piston !
Nice for seating a felt or milk carton disk.