is it posible/reliable to use ground up 2F in the flash pan?

[MBTcustom]

Hey fellers! I just got another deal! .50 cal traditions flint-lock for $50! There is a little rust in the bore, but there is still a lot of rifling left.
Anyway, I got the old girl going again by sharpening the flint with a small brass hammer and cleaning the frizzen with sand paper. Over all, the outside of this piece is in realy good condition. It looks like the previous owner spent most of his time chipping away at the flint and dry firing it. Looks like it was shot once with Pyrodex, wiped down on the outside, and put away in the cabinet to rust, (why doesn't anybody wipe out the bore?):roll:
Well, I didn't want to drive all the way back into little rock for 4f priming powder, and after reading about how to make the stuff, it seemed like its just ground finer, I took a piece of brass on my wood bench and ground some 2F holy black into dust. I primed the pan and it burned perfectly, but I dont know if it will set off the charge in the rifle or not. I know looks can be deceiving. Any thoughts?

P.S. this is my very first flinter so ANY info will be well received.

[Ragnarok]

I was getting fair ignition in my cheap flintlock pistol with Pyrodex RS...but I ain't a rock-lock guru..and it didn't work when it was windy at all..

[waksupi]

If you ground 2F finer, it will work just fine.

[MBTcustom]

I must be doing something wrong. I can only get it go off about half the time. It wouldn't even think about it with strait 2F. I put some of the fine stuff in the pan (level in the little groovy groove), cock the hammer, wipe the residue off the frizzen and the flint, come to point, and pull the trigger. I have sharpened the flint a couple of times (using that term loosely) and I can usually get the right result on the second try, but its on and off from there.
Whats the trick? I'm sure that the movie "Patriot" would have been much less exiting if Mel Gibson had all the trouble I'm having![smilie=l:

[waksupi]

When you hammer is forward, is it pointing directly at the center of the pan?

[405]

I must be doing something wrong. I can only get it go off about half the time.

:mrgreen:
No nothing wrong. Just on the leading edge of a learning curve.
Actually that ground up 2F should light faster than regular 4F simply because the grinding has exposed more raw BP to ignition. The "g" in FFg for example stands for graphite. Where the kernals are coated with graphite. :)

Are you getting the powder in the pan to flash but not the main charge? or is the pan charge not igniting?

You can dry fire the rifle unloaded chamber ,with no powder in pan, in a darkened room to test the flint-frizzen effectiveness. Should get some little burning balls of metal bouncing off the pan. The more the better of course but a few hits will ignite dry pan powder. Then still with unloaded chamber but about half a pan of priming powder try the dry fire again... should go POOF pretty quickly. The rest has to be tested at the range. :)

All manner of flint orientations to the frizzen possible. The flint leading edge should hit at least as high as the frizzen midline and scrape most of the way down. The frizzen has to be the right hardness, etc., etc., and so on for the reliable flintlock. Getting the flash to ignite the main charge sitting behind the little touch hole is the next part and so on. There will be many good recommends from the flint gurus here, so just keep on tinkering and trying the different ideas.

[scrapcan]

I would like to find the $50 dollar deal so I can be where you are right now. nothing quite like learning something new.

[451 Pete]

Give this a try. Take a small piece of very fine wire that will fit into the touch hole and poke it around a bit to create a flash channel in the powder. A lot of times this will solve your problem and it will go off.

take care .... Pete :coffee:

[Mk42gunner]

When you say it would only go off half the time, do you mean the main charge, or the powder in the pan?

I was taught to only fill the pan 1/3 to 1/2 way to the flash hole, under the theory that it is the flame that travels and lights the main charge, not the burning powder granules.

Robert

[MBTcustom]

I have not fired the rifle yet. I figure that is a mute point if I cant get the pan to ignite every time first. Besides, Its a lot easier to learn this stuff in the garage then at the range (besides, I already know how to pack a boolit in a smoke pole.)
The flint appears to be pointing at the center of the pan, but the sparks land forward of the little groove. This might be corrected by mounting the flint bevel up?
The sparks are erratic. sometimes there are embers that glow for half a second or less, but they are all over the pan, and not consistent.
How many strikes should you get out of a piece of flint before it needs sharpening?
How do you sharpen the flint?
How do you measure the amount of powder in the pan?
When you are talking about filling the pan half full or up to the flash hole, what exactly do you mean? are we talking vertically, horizontally, or what?
Sorry for the barrage of questions, but this is about as new to me as wearing my pants inside out!

[405]

Whew good questions.
I don't think it's super critical exactly how much powder is in the pan. If the sparks hit it, it should light. Exactly how much is in there may determine how fast and how reliably the pan flash ignites the main charge- but that comes at step # 2. You are doing the correct homework in the right order in getting a flinter to work.

Usually the short bevel is up and flat side is down when in the cock jaws. That angles the edge of the flint downward, so to speak as it strikes the frizzen. That said, there are some flint/frizzen geometries that seem to spark better with the flint reversed from "normal". But sometimes the better spark angle has a cost of shorter flint life.

As to how many strikes a flint is good for... $64K question. I've had some snaggle tooth on the first strike while some last for over 50 strikes. Some of it depends on the individual piece of flint, type of flint and some depends on such things as frizzen design, frizzen spring strength, strength of main spring and angle and location of flint hitting frizzen. Lots of mechanical things happen when the flint hits the frizzen face.

Some purists don't like them but in one gun my best luck is with a cut agate flint. Generally most flint shooters like the traditional handmade English or French flints. Another one of mine really likes the very inexpensive white glossy handmade flints Rich Pierce makes.

Flint knapping is an art form. The easiest (no skill required :)) way to true up a flint edge is by using a si-carbide wheel or diamond wheel with water drip.

[MBTcustom]

I've had some snaggle tooth on the first strike
What does this mean?

[405]

:)
Ruining the flint on the first shot, the flint breaks or shatters maybe leaving one little "tooth" sticking out from between the cock yaws.

[gnoahhh]

I'll guess, pursuant to what 405 said, that the fault probably lies in the flint. You probably don't know how many times it's been struck, it's probably reached its "expiration date". Re-knapping a worn flint only buys a few more strikes in my experience. I would secure a couple more flints and try it again. If you still get weak sparking I would then suspect the hardness of the frizzen. If it has been fired a lot, there is a chance that the hard case (skin) on the frizzen steel has been worn through. It should be so hard that a file won't touch it. Even a good sharp flint won't generate many sparks from a soft frizzen. If that turns out to be the case, it's not a big deal to polish it and re-case harden. (Heck, if you need it re-case hrdened, send it to me and I'll do it for you.)

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

how do you case harden a frizzen ?

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

a glass shot glass with the rounded end of a wooden dowel you can make the powder finer , i was doing decent but not great with 3f in the pan last spring , i have since purchased 4f


remember don't compress your main charge , like you do with black powder substitutes
this is what that line is for on your ram rod , make one if you don't have one i definitely got better ignition if i got the ball to the powder without packing the powder
and it helps to stick a pick thru the flash hole and poke a hole in your main charge remove it at priming

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

How many strikes should you get out of a piece of flint before it needs sharpening?

How do you sharpen the flint?

How do you measure the amount of powder in the pan?

When you are talking about filling the pan half full or up to the flash hole, what exactly do you mean? are we talking vertically, horizontally, or what?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but this is about as new to me as wearing my pants inside out!


i was also completely new to this a year ago here is what i learned when i started my research

strikes per flint 20-40 strikes per side of the flint depending on conditions angle and such it was pointed out in something i read that 20 paper cartridges were issued with a new flint at some point during the use of flint locks in army service

i don't sharpen them i grab a new one at around a dollar and a half when purchase online if you get 20-25 out of a side and there are 2 sides usually 40 rounds per flint makes them about half the price of rifle primers and even cheaper compared to #11 caps

pan half full diagonally with the low side near the flash hole , the idea is that your trying to shoot a spark down the hole not fuse it

all black powder basically if it is dry has a flash point of 801 degrees f your trying to get a spark hot enough to get some part of you powder to 801 or greater the more of it you get to flash the faster it all goes the better the spark shoots down the flash hole into your main charge to get it going

the smaller your particles the easier it is to increase the temp , think of it like a pot of water , provided your stove burner is constant , you get a quart of water in the same pan to boil before you get a gallon of water to boil , the same goes that if your water is in a tall narrow pot it heats slower than one with better surface area to transfer the heat

[MBTcustom]

OK, well that means that this flint bit the dust long before I got it.

[waksupi]

You guys must be rich! I average 70-100 shots per flint, some less, some more. Probably re-nap after maybe 15-20 shots.
To nap a flint, put the lock on half cock. Use a piece of brass, or some other non-sparking material, and lay it across the very edge of the flint. Give that a little rap with the back of you knife or whatever. You should then have a perfectly straight and sharp flint, ready to go again.
Some locks just plain eat flints, no matter what you do. Combination of spring strength, and geometry of the lock.

[gnoahhh]

how do you case harden a frizzen ?

Polish the face of the frizzen level and to about 320 grit. Then use Kasenit case hardening compound and follow the directions on the can. You can use propane, but Mapp gas is better, and oxy-acetylene better still to get it up to temp quickly.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

This is from another forum:


You can knapp your flint in the Lock, by simply cradling the UNLOADED, UNPRIMED gun in your left arm, then use your Left Thumb's Inside edge next to the thumbnail, to hold the frizzen open just enough, that when you lower the cock, the edge of the flint will strike the Heel of the frizzen- The junction between the horizontal and Vertical parts of the frizzen( or where the Face that is struck to creat sparks meets the top of the frizzen that covers the pan.) Now, hold that frizzen open, making sure that NO Part of your thumb extends past the heel of the frizzen, cock the hammer back to "full-cock", and pull the trigger.

The flint will strike at a steep angle to the heel of the frizzen, and knock off a flake at a severe angle from the UNDERSIDE( bottom ) of the edge of the flint. That will give you a new, Sharp edge to cut steel. The edge will be sharp, and even- not jagged-- across the width of the face of the frizzen. That, in turn maximizes your opportunities to cut steel the next time you pull the trigger.

I do this every time I mount a new flint, and Every time I have to shift a flint forward in the jaws to get more use out of a worn down flint- about every 25 shots in my rifle. How fast the edge wears back(down) depends on the size of the lock, and the strength(weight) of the spring tension that throws the flint into the frizzen. The angle of Impact of any flint to the frizzen also controls how face a flint is destroyed. Optimum angle of Impact is 60-66 degrees. Otimum place of impact is 2/3 up from the bottom of the vertical face.

If the lock is designed properly, the flint will cut steel about 1/3 the length of the face, from 2/3 down to 1/3 at which point the frizzen will spring open, allowing the sparks created by the flint cutting steel, to be Thrown- not fall- down into the flash pan to ignite your priming powder. The timing of the lock to do these things makes the difference in how quickly you can get ignition of the main charge in the barrel, and the gun to fire, before your sights move off the target.

I have a "Knapping hammer" I made years ago, from a piece of 3/8 square brass stock, putting a shortened screw driver blade into the brass "Head" to use as both a cock screw turner, and a flint knapping hammer. I ate up a lot of expensive Flint edge with that tool, and found that using the method above removed less Flint, and gave me longer flint life.

I am not a fan of any tool that is going to make saw teeth out of the edge of a flint. :nono: :surrender: :thumbsup: It wastes good flint, weakens the edge, and gouges grooves in the face of the frizzen. This then requires more grinding filing and polishing the face to get it to spark worth the effort. :(

[waksupi]

I would have to see that method in person. It almost sounds like the hammer would drop on past the bottom of the frizzen, in effect dry firing the lock. If so, it would be a quick way to break a tumbler.

[MBTcustom]

OK, I used waksupi's method to re-knapp the flint. I think I was just being too much of a gentleman. I took my little brass hammer (the head is made of 1/2" brass about 1" long) and started realy rapping on the flint while it was in the hammer-jaws. I finally got a good flake off the edge of the flint and then I just worked my way across the edge. I ended up with a very nice, clean, square, edge. I flipped the flint and did the other side. I primed up the pan and started testing it again. I only missed one strike out of five, so this definitely helped. I am going to buy more flints and see if I can get it better still.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Flints:
http://www.huntingpa.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Missouri-Long-Trek-Flints-Info-January-2010.pdf

Always good to have spares!

[waksupi]

OK, I used waksupi's method to re-knapp the flint. I think I was just being too much of a gentleman. I took my little brass hammer (the head is made of 1/2" brass about 1" long) and started realy rapping on the flint while it was in the hammer-jaws. I finally got a good flake off the edge of the flint and then I just worked my way across the edge. I ended up with a very nice, clean, square, edge. I flipped the flint and did the other side. I primed up the pan and started testing it again. I only missed one strike out of five, so this definitely helped. I am going to buy more flints and see if I can get it better still.

If you turned it over and did it again, you were defeating a good part of the purpose. That just takes away more flint life. From your description, I don't think you did it like I was trying to describe. My piece I strike only needs to be struck once, to take the full edge off.

I have a bunch of Rich Pierce's flints, and they do spark well.

However, I found that they were really eating my frizzens, so I just keep them for emergencies. I had to replace a frizzen on one of my guns from using them.

[MBTcustom]

What I meant was that I sharpened the other edge. I thought there were two usable edges on a piece of flint. Sorry about modifying your process; I didn't have a flat piece of brass. The point I was making was that I used a piece of brass rather than the frizzen's elbow to knapp the flint.
I need to get some new flints, this one is just about gone. I think its great that there is something that can be done in the field to restore the edge on a busted flint.
By the way, the frizzen on my rifle is hard and not overly worn. A file slides across the striking face like a glass rod.
I have a question. are the sparks that land on the powder steel or flint? This is confusing. If it is just steel sparks, why all the headaches with using flint? if I am seeing flint sparks, why would the frizzen ever wear out?

[gnoahhh]

Those sparks are intensely hot steel particles. The act of shearing them off of their parent surface is what generates the heat that makes them red hot for an instant. It's the friction generated by that shearing that makes them hot. Your working almost at the molecular level there.

[MBTcustom]

So why not use something other than flint?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

!:shock:

[waksupi]

What I meant was that I sharpened the other edge. I thought there were two usable edges on a piece of flint.

When you are as cheap as I am, sometimes there are FOUR usable edges on a flint!

[405]

So why not use something other than flint?

Flint is somewhat of a generic name for a large class of quartz based "rock" for lack of a better term. FWIW agate is also in that class or family of mineral. Most any "rock" that is harderner than the steel frizzen will shave those teeinzy flakes off and cause them to incandesce (burn).

How tough that gunflint is and how long it will last is a matter of chance, the quality of the parent material and in which orientation to the base structure of the parent material it was knapped. Also, the angle at which the flint hits the frizzen, the shape of the frizzen, the strength of the frizzen spring, shape of the frizzen toe, strength of the main spring all may determine how long a gunflint lasts. Some dislike cut agate, but like I said, in one gun it is superior to all others. I simply can't tell the difference in frizzen life and wear among all the natural quartz-based gunflints including all those mentioned in this thread. The one material that I have noticed that does wear my frizzens at a noticeably greater rate is one of the manmade synthetic gunflints available on the market. I can't even remember where I got them. They are shaped a lot like the cut agate but completely opaque. They are very tough and last a very long time and spark like crazy but that comes at a price- more frizzen wear.

When doing the simple math of cost per shot... I've found that cost of replacing flints for the flintlocks is about the same as cost of CCI caps for the caplocks.

As far as your last test of about 90% fire-- to me that is very good and maybe above average for many FL shooters. You're on the right track. In the end and moving beyond the basics, successful flintlock shooting becomes more and more of an art--- less and less of a science. good luck

[Mk42gunner]

How do you measure the amount of powder in the pan?

You can buy pan chargers that will dispense a small amount of powder by pushing against the pan; I want to say from 1 to 5 grains, but maybe 3 is the lower limit. Track of the Wolf carries them, among others.

You do not need to spend money on one yet. Try using a .22 Short case that should be around three grains, a long rifle case will hold about 4 1/2 to 5 grains of blackpowder.

Once you figure out the amount you need it is pretty simple to pour the right amount from a priming horn that has a small diameter hole. That was how my cousins uncle taught us to load a flintlock, and also the way a retired GMC showed me to shoot his Trade Gun.

Like 405 says my Uncle's flintlock that I have now fires better with an agate flint. Maybe it is because I didn't know how to knap the flint, but the black ones that T/C used to sell with two or four blister packed on a card worked best for me.

I need to get that rifle out and shoot it.

Robert