Questions about wheelguns..

[rvpilot76]

Specifically, the cylinder throats. What size does one want them to be in relation to the bore size? I've heard that some of the Rugers are small in the cylinder throat and larger in the bore. If this is the case with the Bisley I'm about to buy, do I need to change it? If so, who can do the work? Is this something I could do myself? I have full access to a machine shop at work, so resources wouldn't be a problem. I'm going to do the trigger job with a Wolff spring pack from Midway, a free spin pawl from Power Custom, and a Belt Mountain #5 Keith style base pin. Can I do anything else to the guts to improve on the overall smoothness of the gun? Can anyone recommend a book detailing this? Thanks for all your input!

Kevin

[Dale53]

I consider the ideal cylinder throat size to be .001" over the groove diameter. There can be a greater disparity than that and still have the revolver shoot well. However, the cylinder throats should NOT be smaller than the groove diameter.

I understand it is about a $35.00 job to carefully ream the cylinder throats. I believe, that at that price, I would, personally, let some one do it who does it professionally.

I have been lucky and all of my Rugers have been on the "right side" of the dimensions needed. Even my Bisley Vaquero .45 Colt shoots well (with both smokeless and black powder).

Dale53

[mtngunr]

Honestly, I've only measured my OMBH .45 Colt, which was WAAAYYY undersize in throat, and WAAAY oversize in bore/groove, .451 and .456 respectively....and the only reason I did measure is because it was leading badly....not because it wasn't shooting quite accurately, because it was.....my Rugers have generally shot most excellent, only two poor ones from years back, out of more Rugers than I think I could recall.....shoot the gun first, and if it shoots good, I wouldn't worry about it....Ruger has had a habit of turning out throats too tight, maybe just because they try for more mileage from reamers that get worn undersized....as already stated, an easy fix, and you could do it yourself, but you'd spend three times for reamers what you'd pay someone else to do it for....so, if you just need one gun done, send the cylinder out.....one good guy is www.cylindersmith.com ....very affordable, fast turn-around, very fast turn-around, as it should be on a simple job.....
PS.....the dimensions should be a step down at every step, to progressively and positively grip the bullet and minimize or eliminate any blowby of hot gas.....ideally, the cylinder throat would be exactly bullet size or a thousandth at most tighter, then upon firing, the bullet would get funneled into the forcing cone of the barrel, with the groove diameter of the barrel perhaps a thousandth tighter still, perfection would be a tapered bore with the bore at its tightest at the muzzle........but this is not an ideal world, cylinder throat reamers can be undersized for whatever reason, a barrel could be oversize, and barrels are often crushed inward while threading into the frame, which can create a tight spot in the bore just past the forcing cone entrance.....but, as I said, if the gun shoots, don't worry about it.....if you get a lot of leading in the first inch or so of barrel, then you can send out the cylinder......

[leftiye]

Kevin, If you want to ream the cylinder mouths your self, there's another thread that I've seen under- I believe - gunsmithing. You can probably find it with a search.

Reamers are a bunch cheaper if you buy a chucking reamer from MSC (see decimal chucking reamers). They don't have a pilot, but if you zero on each hole first, they'll cut a centered hole very well (they'll follow the exsting hole, and they do flex). Run your mill at slow speed with lots of oil for best results.

You might want to ream .001" smaller than you want, and finish out with a dowel split with some 600 grit wet or dry- either by hand or chucked in the mill. Measure with a boolit sized the correct size, and polish just enough that it will push through the finished throat with moderate drag. Alternatively, use pin gauges to measure the throats for correct size.

I once did a chamber mouth job on a Colt officer's model with an Ackley .357 barrel (replaced ths Colt .355" barrel) by the bullet measuring method. after developing loads I have hit ground squirrels at 60 yds with it.

[Bass Ackward]

Specifically, the cylinder throats. What size does one want them to be in relation to the bore size? I've heard that some of the Rugers are small in the cylinder throat and larger in the bore. If this is the case with the Bisley I'm about to buy, do I need to change it? If so, who can do the work? Is this something I could do myself? I have full access to a machine shop at work, so resources wouldn't be a problem. I'm going to do the trigger job with a Wolff spring pack from Midway, a free spin pawl from Power Custom, and a Belt Mountain #5 Keith style base pin. Can I do anything else to the guts to improve on the overall smoothness of the gun? Can anyone recommend a book detailing this? Thanks for all your input!

Kevin


Kevin,

Sounds like you got this serious. The best way to smooth up a handgun is a two fold process. First is obviously to shoot it. Second thing is to play with it while you watch TV.

After doing this for awhile, you will feel the difference every time you lay it down for a couple of days and then pick it up.

You don't want to do anything to anything until you get to where the gun stabilizes. I don't care if the throats are undersized or not.

What the ideal throat size is going to be, will be determined by the alignment of your cylinders to the bore. Depending on if there is no problem, then .001 over is your goal. If alignment isn't perfect, then you will always have to shoot as an obturator, using close to bore size bullets and have some slop in the throats to allow the bullets some wiggle room or shoot rock hard to survive the cylinder rotation into alignment. Because it will align itself.

So in some cases .002 may be a better size. If the alignment is worse than that after break in, have it corrected. Not that you won't make the gun shoot. But you will always have less options and the gun will be finicky or it will shoot lose to correct that over time. Or you will have to live with minor leading and cleaning more often, etc.

But what ever the size, cut under and polish out. Other wise they will enlarge even more on you over time as the bullets polish the throats out.

[MT Gianni]

Kevin, To be a bit more obvious, you want to shoot it as is out of the box for 200 rds or so and detail the progress with each improvement. I like to use ja****ed bullets to smooth a barrel, others prefer a new bbl never see copper at all. By keeping good records you will know what works the best and what you need as a packag. gianni

[Nueces]

Kevin,

Take a look at cylindersmith.com, for an outfit that reams throats (I have not used them).

Mark

[45r]

My 41 mag bisley was great from the start but leaded slightly so I firelapped it 12 rounds a session with lots of cleaning to get max lapping effect.After 72 rounds it doesn't lead at all and shoots 2 inch groups at 75 yards with several loads.Very impressed with this revolver.It wears a 2 power leupold and has a trigger job and overtravel screw.That is all I felt it needed and am asked if I want to sell it often.You can probably guess what my answer is.If you can push a .451 nosler through the throats it ain't to tight. My 45 redhawk barely lets one through and it didn't lead after only 12 firelapped rounds and shoots ragged hole groups at 30 yards with iron sights.Every revolver has it own personality you might say.I've seen rugers respond very well to firelapping.I've heard it's from the crush fit of barrel to frame.I've firelapped all my revolvers to some degree except my 454 casull.It nevers leads and shoots inch and a half at 50 yards iron sights and don't want to change that.Freedom arms revolvers are excellent and I wish I had a lot more but there's not much that a 454 can't handle.I like the grip better on the bisley and I bet you will love your 45.The bisleys are great to have customized and worth it if it turns out to be an excellent shooter.

[rvpilot76]

My 41 mag bisley was great from the start but leaded slightly so I firelapped it 12 rounds a session with lots of cleaning to get max lapping effect. After 72 rounds it doesn't lead at all and shoots 2 inch groups at 75 yards with several loads.Very impressed with this revolver.It wears a 2 power leupold and has a trigger job and overtravel screw.That is all I felt it needed and am asked if I want to sell it often.You can probably guess what my answer is.If you can push a .451 nosler through the throats it ain't to tight. My 45 redhawk barely lets one through and it didn't lead after only 12 firelapped rounds and shoots ragged hole groups at 30 yards with iron sights.Every revolver has it own personality you might say.I've seen rugers respond very well to firelapping.I've heard it's from the crush fit of barrel to frame.I've firelapped all my revolvers to some degree except my 454 casull.It nevers leads and shoots inch and a half at 50 yards iron sights and don't want to change that.Freedom arms revolvers are excellent and I wish I had a lot more but there's not much that a 454 can't handle.I like the grip better on the bisley and I bet you will love your 45.The bisleys are great to have customized and worth it if it turns out to be an excellent shooter.

What grit did you use? Did you buy the boolits commercially, or did you make your own? Great shooting, by the way!

Kevin

[45r]

I got my lapping kit from beartooth bullets.I talked to marshall and he said the stainless rugers take a lot of rounds sometimes so I got some of his bullets to start with and used my own from then on once I got the hang of it.You get a technical guide and it tells how to do it and is an interesting read also.I used air cooled wheel weight bullets to do several of my revolvers and that works as long as your alloy is in the 10 to 14 BHN.The guide says to use clover brand silicon carbide compound in 320 grit.The kit gives you all that is needed and isn't all that exspensive.It is messy and time consuming but does work well with revolvers that choke your bullets down when they pass through the barrel throat.I have seen my groups cut in half sometimes.I use a lot of sandbags and rolled up carpet and adjust everything to where my wrist are well supported and the barrel is touching the rolled up carpet only enough to steady the sight picture.I put a rolled up towell under the butt to steady the revolver also.You have to have the same grip and pressure on it for each shot.I concentrate so much on sight picture and trigger sqeeze that the shot takes me by surprise.I spend a lot of time bench shooting revolvers and it really helps with hard kickers like 454 casull.I've become so interested in revolvers that I don't shoot much else anymore and the constant practice is what has enabled me to shoot the good groups.I hope this helps.