New 45-70 High Wall won't group

[NSB]

I bought two new rifles this year. I got a Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 and a Winchester 125th Anniversary High Wall 45-70. Just about everything I've tried in the Pedersoli shoots pretty well and some loads shoot extremely well (1-2" five shot groups at 100 yds). Considering my "old eyes" I'm very happy with the Pedersoli. A couple of weeks ago I received my new Winchester High Wall and nothing shoots very well out of it. I'm getting 4-6" groups at 100 yds. I'm using the same technigues with both guns and I'm a pretty experienced handloader and shooter. However, the High Wall is new to me. The Pedersoli has 1 in 18 twist and the Winchester has 1 in 20. Is this a significant enough difference to show up in accuracy? Any suggestions on where to proceed? I'm not too happy with the Winchester (Miroku) at this point but I've never heard anything but good reports from everyone else. If anyone has any ideas of pet loads, I'd appreciate hearing about them. Thanks

[montana_charlie]

I'm using the same technigues with both guns
Do a chamber cast of both rifles and compare the two models.
You will probably find enough differences to prompt you to develop separate loads for the two.

If you are having good Pedersoli results with a 500 grain bullet, that same weight should do fine in the slower twist of the Winchester ... but it may not like anything much heavier.

CM

[bigted]

i can attest to the same difficulty in exactly the same scenario.

i also added a browning bpcr to the mix and got sidelined with the bpcr rifle and recently got it to shoot very well being under 1 inch at 100 being my mark. i have to say i got all my hints and suggestions from here with the wealth of experience available.

my miroku hunter which is the same rifle i believe will do clover leave clusters at 100 but it does so with 34 gr rl-7 with enough corn meal fill to kiss the bottom of the remington 405 j bullet. the rifling in this rifle is very shallow...being .0024... and ive shot pounds of lyman 457125 and 457643 being 520ish and 430ish respectively and never gotten any kind of acceptable accuracy with them....BUT... the bpcr didnt start shooting till i carefully seated the 520's out to kiss the rifling when seated in the chamber. then and only then would it shoot so when i get back to the Winchester this is where im going to begin.

the long range ped sharps needs the 520 loaded almost out to the second lube groove to get the best out of.

treat your Winchester as the separate rifle it is with the separate needs commiserate to that particular rifle ... it is unusual to have two rifles shoot the same load and boolit loaded in the same way. don't sell the Winchester short...load for it separately and it will pay good dividends.

[montana_charlie]

commiserate
... commensurate ... ?

[littlejack]

NSB:
Are you loading smokeless or charcoal?
Jack

[NSB]

NSB:
Are you loading smokeless or charcoal?
Jack

Smokeless.

[MT Chambers]

... commensurate ... ?

Communist...?

[bigted]

WOWWW didnt even gadate hi shoo fellers...cut a man some slack...LOL

[Gtek]

The eye sight is going, the math is gone, where are my keys, I have to go before we leave. Thank God for that ABC thing up in corner. Gtek

[littlejack]

I could give you a good load with black. I do not shoot smokeless in my 45-70.
Do what bigted told you, seat your boolit so it kisses the rifling.
Jack

[StrawHat]

[QUOTE=Gtek;1453303] ...Thank God for that ABC thing up in corner. Gtek... /QUOTE]

Been a member for years and never saw that! Thanks for pointing it out to me>

[montana_charlie]

WOWWW didnt even gadate hi shoo fellers...cut a man some slack...LOL
A guy can sound pretty well-versed when he eases a word like commiserate into his remarks. But, when it is the wrong word for what he is trying to say, it takes some of the shine off.

I was just slipping you the word that you'll want to use next time.
I don't know what MT Chambers' goal was ...

Since this has turned out to be a 'smokeless' thread, I am pulling out.
CM

[bigted]

COMMISERATE;;;;; to feel sympathy...or pity...to sympathize with. sound about rite?? i think i about said what i meant with the correct use of the rite on word but thanks for keeping me in tune charlie...i had to go look it up to be sure i used the correct term for what i humbly wanted to interject and the 'shine'??? never cared for this nor do i search out ways to"shine" just trying to live and learn from my mistakes so i can weed em out for the next time i have need to open my mouth about something.

finally what i humbly wanted to interject in here was the fact that each rifle will have its own set of stuff it wants for the best run at accuracy. while i have limited experience at black powder cartridge loading....i DO HAVE around 30 years loading from a 25-20 up thru the 458 win mag. handgun cart's from the 32 s&w to the 44 mag. so my small amount of experience will serve me well for most things.

i did bow to the huge amount of experience and helpful suggestions found here on this forum and will continue to bow to this helpful experience as my learning is still an ongoing enterprise and i don't feel like ive arrived as of yet ... however im no schoolboy either! also the next time somebody has need to "correct me" in public on what im typing on one of these threads i will greatly appreciate it if you would do me the favor to use the private messaging service provided here and save us all the bristled retorts like this one. thanks for the space for my rant!

now back to our regularly scheduled program

[Gtek]

I have a trio of the Win-Japs, My 45-70's are in other delivery systems. Every one of the Win-Japs
have very short throats, Not hard to get to kissing and planted COAL. Single poke - crimp not required. Before they came out with the now Hornaday system I made my own. Take a nice fired case and drill and tap through primer pocket with 10-32. Make wooden plug for inside case and epoxy nut in rear, centered of coarse. Place boolit in case, insert case. With one hand hold case tight in chamber, the other screw in (I used #2 phillips) with driver until resistance is felt. That gives you a real good starting point, then color end with black sharpie for visual and start lengthening until desired engagement has been established. Gtek

[NickSS]

I have a bunch of 45=70 rifles as it is one of my favorite calibers. Some loads I have tried do not shoot in anything others work reasonably well in most. One of my very favorite smokeless loads is a 300 to 420 gr bullet (does not seam to matter which one I try) and 27 gr of AA 5744 Shoots good in all my rifles some a little better than others but all under 2 inch groups at 100 yards for 10 shot strings. I can get better accuracy (barely) with black powder with a load custom tailored to the rifle. As for twist rates I have rifles with every twist from 1 in 22, 1in 20, 1in 18 and 1 in 16. They all will shoot acceptably with bullets up to 500 gr and ranges out to 600 yards with a load that they like. However, the faster twists get better results with longer bullets especially at longer ranges.

[John Boy]

I'm getting 4-6" groups at 100 yds. I'm using the same techniques with both guns ...
Suggestions:
* Slug the bore to determine the groove diameter
* Lead bullets? Size 0.002 greater than groove diameter
* Expand case 0.001 to 0.002 less than base diameter of bullet. Be sure to bell the case so 1/2 of the bullet base can be set in the case before seating
* Crimping? Don't. Only remove the bell
Try 2 COAL length rounds: one ~ 0.2" off the leade. The other with the nose just touching the leade
... And don't hot rod the powder charge

[rbertalotto]

Interesting! I have the exact same senerio. I bought a Pedersoli Sharps and a Winchester BPCR, both in 45-70 within a few weeks of each other. Both are scoped with Malcolm 6X scopes.

The Pedersoli shoots amazingly well with anything I load........The BPCR shoots terrible with any load tried (I also tried three different scopes, two of them modern known accuracy, as I suspected this might be the issue)

The BPCR has zero lead in the throat. The lands start immediatly at the mouth of the case. Looks like the chamber was cut and a seperate operation for throating was not done.

I made a chamber cast of the Pedersoli and I'm having a reamer made from it ti rechamber the BPCR.

Hope this fixes the issue......

[Don McDowell]

Don't know if they're using the same chamber in the anniversary gun as they do in the bpcr model, but that bpcr model is an extremely accurate gun.It is a very tight chamber and cartridges that are fired in my shiloh are a snug fit, cartridges fired in the C Sharps won't chamber unless they've been full length resized.
This one likes .458 bullets, especially those from the 480-530 gr weight range, and has shown a very good interest in 510 gr patched bullets.
Follow Johnboys advice on no crimp, and go gentle with the smokeless powder.
You may want to do some lead mining to see if you have some lead build up causing problems.
The top 3 finishers at the Medicine Rocks Shoot in Ekalaka mt this year were shooting winchester 85's, and the rifle that won the 1/2 mile buffalo match was also a hiwall...

[steg]

ABC thing???.......................................... ...steg

[EDG]

No communist here but I will commiserate commensurate with my experiences.

I have both Pedersoli and Browning BPCRS.
My best results have been with a Brooks 520 grn bullet of the RN govt nose shape. The bullet is used as cast.
The nose is .450 and the front band is .454 and the base is .462. I use the Track of Wolf type .461 expander.
I seat the bullet to engage the rifling with about .020 of the rim out of the chamber and thumb seat it the rest of the way. The powder charge is 24 grns of SR4759 and NO filler. This load will shoot to the limits of my eye sight. On a good day I can shoot groups around 1" at 100 yards with the tang sight.

If I designed a bullet from scratch for this application it would have a land dia nose. The base would be .002 over size.

[texasmac]

Hi Roy,

The Winchester .45-70 BPCR you have has a SAAMI chamber (http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/45-70%20Government.pdf). Technically there is a leade although it's not obvious since it's the extension of the chamber transition step. Therefore the leade angle is approximately 12 degrees 45 minutes, which is the same as the transition step angle. As you noted, it does not have an extended throat. This is a very common chambering and is also used in the older Browning BPCRs, with which a lot of folks have achieved superb accuracy. You might ask for suggestions from some of the experienced Browning .45-70 BPCR shooters. Although I have a Browning .45-70 BPCR as one of my personal rifles, my main "shooter" is a Browning .40-65 BPCR, which has freebore (an extended throat) and requires different loading techniques.

By the way, I prefer an extended throat and will likely ream the throat of my .45-70 Browning one of these days if I start shooting it extensively. Browning & now Winchester felt they had to use the SAAMI spec'd chamber because they're SAAMI members.

Regards,
Wayne

[Don McDowell]

This Winchester bpcr shoots exceptionally well (take note the number of trophies and plaques my wife brought home this season) with the Saeco 645 bullet sized to .458 seated to the driving band over a case full of 2f black. It also shoots reasonably well with the RCBS 82054 bullet. It also responds well to the Old West .444 patched bullet at 510grs. and wrapped in 9lb onionskin paper.
Hydraulic had a Browning bpcr in 45-70 that he shot the rcbs bullet in and shot some very impressive scores with.

[Lead pot]

I have the Browning BPCR. One .40-65 and the other one is a .45-70 both shoot very good. I re cut the lead in the .40-65 because it had a screwed up chamber as it came from the factory, to a 4 degree/1.5 degree compound lead to clean it up and that greatly improved the accuracy in that rifle.
But to get back to the .45-70. My BPCR shoots a load very good in it but it will not shoot as good in the .45-70 Shiloh and the load that shoots good in the Shiloh will not shoot for hill of beans in the Browning.
Spend a little time developing a load for each rifle and stick with it and mark the box for the rifle your going to use it for.

[omgb]

That Browning was designed for smokeless and J bullets. The shallow rifling coupled with the slow twist means smokless loads and bullets in the 350-450 grain weight bracket. You should find a BP load that works but it isn't going to come without work. Now you might get a cast load to work if you cast .003 over-size, seat out to touch the rifling and choose your powder carefully. They are good guns, no doubt about it. But the current run were not designed with BP and heavy cast bullets in mind. That's been my experience anyway. So what it all come down to is that you are going to have to fiddle with the loads before the type of cast bullet accuracy you want begins to show.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Find out that throat diameter and fill it up plus at least .001. I would actually find out what is the max diameter boolit that will still chamber. Smokeless demands a fat boolit fit for top acuracy in all my rifles to include single shots ( Yes I have a jap 1885).
Last jap 1885 I worked with was a 38-55. Bore was a nice .375+. But the throat still needed a .378 to shoot smokeless to my likings. Start right and there is a good going for you to end right on target.
Mike in Peru

[peerlesscowboy]

I bought two new rifles this year. I got a Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 and a Winchester 125th Anniversary High Wall 45-70. Just about everything I've tried in the Pedersoli shoots pretty well and some loads shoot extremely well (1-2" five shot groups at 100 yds). Considering my "old eyes" I'm very happy with the Pedersoli. A couple of weeks ago I received my new Winchester High Wall and nothing shoots very well out of it. I'm getting 4-6" groups at 100 yds. I'm using the same technigues with both guns and I'm a pretty experienced handloader and shooter. However, the High Wall is new to me. The Pedersoli has 1 in 18 twist and the Winchester has 1 in 20. Is this a significant enough difference to show up in accuracy? Any suggestions on where to proceed? I'm not too happy with the Winchester (Miroku) at this point but I've never heard anything but good reports from everyone else. If anyone has any ideas of pet loads, I'd appreciate hearing about them. Thanks
Are you shooting from a bench and resting the forearm on the sandbag rest? Try resting on the barrel.
I have a Miroku Browning 1885 "traditional hunter" .38-55 that shoots 4-5" groups at 100 yards if I rest on the forearm..........rest on the barrel and groups shrink to 1-2". I think the floating forearm design on these things ain't such a good idea [smilie=f:

John C. Saubak

[rbertalotto]

Thanks Wayne, good advise..........

[rbertalotto]

That Browning was designed for smokeless and J bullets.


Huh!???...........A "BPCR" was designed for smokeless and J boolits?

I think there might be some confusion here.............:bigsmyl2:

[blackpowder man]

You've got enough great advice to keep you busy. I mostly shoot black or duplex in it anymore, but I worked up some black powder equivalent loads when I first got it. I'll only add some smokeless loads that worked in my 1885 Hi wall hunter .45-70 28". All using Lee .459-500 as cast 50/50 ww/pb or softer and seated just short of rifling. 22.5 IMR Sr 4759, 38.0 Varget, 38.0 IMR 4064, and can't find the Alliant 2400 load that was also good. All shot good to 100 yards as that is as far as I got with them.

[bigted]

I bought two new rifles this year. I got a Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 and a Winchester 125th Anniversary High Wall 45-70. Just about everything I've tried in the Pedersoli shoots pretty well and some loads shoot extremely well (1-2" five shot groups at 100 yds). Considering my "old eyes" I'm very happy with the Pedersoli. A couple of weeks ago I received my new Winchester High Wall and nothing shoots very well out of it. I'm getting 4-6" groups at 100 yds. I'm using the same technigues with both guns and I'm a pretty experienced handloader and shooter. However, the High Wall is new to me. The Pedersoli has 1 in 18 twist and the Winchester has 1 in 20. Is this a significant enough difference to show up in accuracy? Any suggestions on where to proceed? I'm not too happy with the Winchester (Miroku) at this point but I've never heard anything but good reports from everyone else. If anyone has any ideas of pet loads, I'd appreciate hearing about them. Thanks

guess im not sure where the 'BPCR' came in from except to compare to maybe the sharps mentioned in the original post.

the "Winchester" mentioned is NOT the BPCR model! it is the 'Traditional Hunter' model and is in a different ball park from the Winchester or the Browning BPCR model of rifle. i also have had fits shooting cast in this rifle and the only fun shoot i got with it with bp was with patched round-balls over 25 or 30 grains of 2f goex. the shoot-able came in the guise of rl-7 [34 grains] under enough corn meal filler to kiss the bottom of the Remington 405 grain flat point bullet with a large rifle primer [cci 200] and housed inside a Remington case. this combo brought me 1 and 1.5 groups at 100 yards in my Winchester Hunter model. 28 inch regular octagonal barrel with the straight grip and the deep Winchester curved crescent butt-plate. a puff load that would flatten anything that stands in its way im sure.

have fun with this fun and attractive rifle. it will give many years of fun and bring admiration from many directions. report back when you find the load that the rifle will tell you it likes.