Colt or S&W 1911?

[ColColt]

What do you fellers think of the Colt Commander XSE? They have it in the LW version as well as SS but, I'm more prone to pick the SS over alloy. I'm looking at this one and the S&W 1911SC E-Series(Commander size) as well. Anyone have either of these give a synopsis on it?

[MtGun44]

XSEs are very well made. All that I have seen are fit like they should be. I have
a ss ltwt Enhanced Commander as my primary carry gun. I like it and would replace
it with the same thing if it got lost somehow. The series 80 stuff is not my
favorite, but it normally works unless the trigger is fiddled with.

I don't like the S&W extractor redesign, just on general principle. It is not a 1911
extractor, IMO. Also, S&Ws have gone through about 3 generations of different
extractor designs on the 39/59 series and all the 459, etc variations. Not much of
a S&W semiauto fan prior to the M&P, which seems like a real step up. Love
their revolvers, tho.

Bill

[ColColt]

The one reason I looked at the S&W was because of the external extractor. I'm a witness as to how reliable the are in comparison to the standard internal one. I've had a 3rd Generation 4506 for 20 years and it's never failed in any way. I can't say that for the SA and half a dozen Colt's I've had since 1973. IMHO, S&W never made before or since any more reliable autos than the 3rd Generation models.

I have noticed the grip safety on the XSE commander on Colt's website looks different(has the speed bump and more upturned look) than the one I saw for sale. It looks more like a duckbill.

[376Steyr]

I just got a S&W Compact ES (Commander slide, officer butt ) and am really happy with it. Fit and finish is great; it has a goofy firing pin lock, but it is activated by the grip safety so the trigger pull is fine, it gobbles up Winchester 230 JHPs, and the grip safety prevents hammer bite. I haven't put it on paper yet, but tin cans at 10 yards were suffering grievous injury. I'm planning on stocking up on a couple of spare extractors and springs, just in case, but the one in the gun is working just fine. Didn't hurt that when I bought it, the comparable Colt in the gunshop had a 20% higher price tag on it.

[MtGun44]

Sounds like they finally got the external extractor right on the third try. If you know how to
check extractor tension (very easy) on a 1911, and set it up ONCE when new, you will
never have extractor problems. The issue is most of the factories are not even checking
extractor tension on 1911s. Install and ship. Note that because there are so many makers
of 1911s and many are NOT even remotely experts in the design, they get stuff wrong out
of ignorance.

If you care - here is the drill, simple and no tools. Remove the firing pin stop and firing pin.
Use a small screwdriver to pry the extractor out of the tunnel. If it pulls out easily it has too
little tension. It should require about 2-5 lbs of thumb pressure to push it into the slide
and flush. If it has less, remove the extractor, flip 180 degrees and put the butt end into
the slide - you are using the slide as a handle. Now, put the extractor against a wooden
surface that you don't mind marring and use the slide as a lever to just SLIGHTLY bend the
whole extractor. Pull out of the slide and check the pressure required to seat it. If in the
moderate thumb pressure range, you are good to go. If not, bend a touch more.

I have seen two examples of new extractors that were not heat treated, so were not
springs. Set up the tension, wait 20 rds and no tension (failures to extract) both were
Wilson extractors, several years apart, so just flukes that missed the heat treat somehow.
Dead soft steel without any springyness.

With this adjustment, the 1911 extractor is a non-issue. They can break the hook off after
around 40-50,000 rounds occasionally, but this is fairly uncommon, but does happen.

I also polish and round the bottom edge of the extractor at the hook area because the
1911 is a crontrolled round feed system like a Mauser 98 and the rim slides up under the
extractor, so a sharp edge here is not good. Slight break and polish and good to go. Most
modern extractors are made with a slight break here, but since everyone and his dog
are making parts, there is more variation than would be the case if there was only one
source. I'm thinking the dog isn't too consistent on his machine work. ;-)


Bill

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Get the Colt... there are spare parts,magazines here in Arequipa... Hard to beat 100 years of "it works" service.
Mike in Peru

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I just had a formal 1911 class from our local 1911 pistolsmith guru. He said the external extractor is being revisited because it is cheaper to make, not because it is better. To check extractor spring tension, remove the slide and slip a loaded cartridge into place such as where it is fired. If the cartridge falls out the extractor is too weak, if it holds in place against gravity the tension is proper.

I have three Colt 1911's, all Series 70's and they are all great. I bought one of Colt's new lightweight 5" 1911's and carry it every day, it is very well made and shoots great.

Our local guru said all 1911's purchased now are a **** shoot in quality, none meet his approval out of the box. The XSE can't be the same quality as a Springfield Mil-Spec or Colt Series 70 that is custom build by Wilson to your liking, but the costs are greatly different. If you get a XSE and it doesn't work out then you are kind of stuck with it. If you start with a Series 70 or a Mil Spec and build in it you won't go wrong. It'll just take more time and money.

Chuck the factory mags and recoil spring no matter what you get. The guru favored Metalform mags, I use Wilson. The key is to replace the springs like you change the oil of your car. 2,000 rounds for a 5". I'll have to check my notes for spring replacement schedule on a Commander. Those micro 1911 he said change the springs every 200 rounds.

This guru turned down pleas from Kimber to re-locate out of consideration for his duties as a husband and father. He will build a custom gun for you for about $2,000.00. He starts with a Caspian frame and slide. Once you take possession of a 1911 he makes, you have a lifetime warrantly. I know officers who have done this years ago and their guns have never missed a beat.

As for the Smith, I have toured their factory and they make a top notch product, but I have never owned a Smith 1911 and we do not have any on our firing range at this time.

[ColColt]

Bill-I doubt my thumb would know the difference in 2 pounds and 8 pounds. I had a SA once that it seemed I constantly had to retention the extractor...heat treated, I don't know but it would always fail 2-3 times out of 100 rounds firing no matter what you did. My method of checking extractor tension in colt type pistols is to do what Silver Jack mentioned. Using a standard FMJ round, slip it under the extractor and if it nearly falls out toward the mag well, retension it. If it slips under with a bit of force and you can turn it every which way you can think of without it moving, it may be too tight. Seems there's a fine line.

Since I started this thread I've ran across a NIB S&W 457S that may warrant a second look. You're not going to find many of those still around and I know it to be an excellent performer and could be a great carry piece. I'm just not sure about the $595 price tag.

[MtGun44]

If the extractor wouldn't hold tension it was junk and needed to be replaced with a quality
part. You can easily tell the push-in force. If it falls in, too loose, of you can push it in
with your thumb and not hurt your thumb, it is good. Not rocket science but there are
junk extractors out there.

As to the "change springs like your oil". IMO, absolutely not necessary. I run them for 10-15K
rounds, they work just fine. A good spring works for a very , very long time. I'm not sure
how this got started, but probably by some company selling springs. Baloney in my opinion.

Bill

[Dale53]

Springs will loose tension after MUCH use. It is simple to weigh them. You don't even have to tear the gun down.

Get a plastic plumbing coupling just large enough I.D. to clear the barrel. Put the coupling on a scale (I use a kitchen spring scale) and press down with the muzzle of the pistol vertical moving the slide to the rear with the pressure. Just before lock up look at the scale. A new, out of the box pistol, should register 16.0 lbs. I use an 18.0 spring with a buffer for full military loads. When it weakens to 16 lbs. I change it. You can check it every thousand rounds and you'll find it good for several thousand rounds (like MtGun44 states, 10-15 thousand rounds).

The above is for a full size 1911...

Dale53

[MtGun44]

Thanks, Dale -

That has to be THE easiest way to check a spring. Personally, when they get to where I
can tell that the spring is a bit too easy to rack, I change it but now that I am not shooting the
large quantities of .45 ACP I used to, it is years between needing to change springs.

I think I'll be trying out your method, thanks for the tip.

I suspect most folks will never need to change one, really.

Bill

[Dale53]

Many years ago, I was a bit of a neophyte with the 1911. I didn't realize a spring could sag after much use. I cracked the slide on my old 1911 (it was used when I got it and I have NO idea of it's past use). When I checked the standard 16# spring, it was now registering 12#. I was using full military level loads. It was no mystery what happened to my 1911. I was fortunate, as my pistolsmith had a new seventy series Colt slide for a very good price. Afterwards, I was better off than before (except for a slightly lighter wallet). However, the lesson was LEARNED. I now keep a PVC coupling handy to check my various 1911's to make certain they have the correct springs for the particular job given them.

Dale53

[ColColt]

That's a great idea, Dale. One question though. A coupling's doesn't seem to be that long to push the slide back far enough to get close to lockup, I wouldn't think or did I miss something? I'm going by memory as to how long a PVC "union" is.

[bearcove]

Coupling is correct. A union is a threaded part so you can disasemble it later.

A 3/4" coupling should be about 1 1/2" long.

Rod

[ColColt]

Shows what I know about plumbing. I thought coupling and union were synonymous.

[bearcove]

I'm a pipefitter/welder not a plumber, JUST for the record.[smilie=l:

[35remington]

What's interesting is that the military spec for 1911 springs is 14.5 lbs.

If an extractor needs frequent retensioning it is either made of poor material and does not have the characteristics of a true spring or the gun is not feeding correctly.

Possibly both.

If a quality spring is used in a full size 1911, useful life should greatly exceed the "must be replaced by" date many promote. Some "change by" round counts are ridiculously short.

[ColColt]

That experience with the SA really soured me on Springfields...haven't bought another. There's a possibility the extractor was not heat treated good but, it was a Wilson-that I remember. Oh, well, that was back in 1980's.

I think I'm gong to go with the Colt Commander XSE. I haven't had a Colt in some years and it's time for another. I'd love both but, I'm not a Rothchild or Bilderberg.

[Dale53]

Just go to your friendly hardware store or big box store (Lowe's or Home Depot) and pick a coupling up for a modest price. Or conversely, send me an obscene amount of money and I'll take a permanent marker and write "Wilson" or "Brownell's" on it and send you one[smilie=1:

FWIW
Dale53

P.S. While we are on this subject - a somewhat harder question to answer regarding the use of light target loads in a 1911. This often requires using a LIGHTER spring than standard to get positive functioning.

If you err on the side of caution, you can adjust this by watching how the particular "light load" cartridges are ejected. If they just barely roll out of your gun you can assume that the spring is too heavy. If they throw the cases out in the "next cornfield" you can assume that the spring is too light. Keeping in mind that using too light a spring is hard on the gun, you can pretty quickly arrive at good decision regarding YOUR load in YOUR particular gun.

You can get an assortment of springs from any number of suppliers. I am partial to Wolfe springs as they seem to have a good assortment of strengths.

"Back in the day" I saw many Bullseye shooters who wanted to use the least powerful loads that shot well, cut springs shorter to "reduce their strength". This is wrong on so many fronts that we needn't get into a discussion on it. Suffice to say, it is a bad idea whose time is long past. In the early years of using 1911's in Bullseye, there were few aftermarket ANYTHING available. We now have just about anything we can think of and several we CAN'T think of. It was not always so.

If I may, I might mention that my favorite light load has come to be a Mihec clone of the H&G #68 cast bullet ahead of 4.0 grs of Bullseye. Your particular gun set up will decide if these function well in your gun. I have seen people shoot the old light load standby of 3.5 grs of Bullseye by the tens of thousands. Me, I prefer the slightly greater reliability of a bit heavier load in my guns.

Dale53

[MtGun44]

The XSE's that I have shot and have handled have been very well made and fitted. If they
are like the ones I have seen, you'll be quite pleased.

Bill

[ColColt]

Or conversely, send me an obscene amount of money and I'll take a permanent marker and write "Wilson" or "Brownell's" on it and send you one


Let's see...an obscene amount of money for a Wilson coupling-I don't have that much money as a PVC coupling "by Wilson" would be priceless on today's market. I'll chew on it if you mark it in blue.:drinks:

Bill-The satin nickel Commander I had back in the late 70's was like my 4506-you just couldn't make it jam or fail to extract/eject. Unthroated and unflared it was plain Jane by today's standards and like a fool, I traded it. I'm still curious as to why some XSE Commanders(SS) show a beaver tail with it upturned and a speed bump, yet others of this model show no speed bump and a duck bill beaver tail.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

MtnGun44, I called Colt and they recommended changing the springs every “couple thousand” rounds. Our local 1911 guru recommends changing springs every two thousand rounds. This local guru has been employed full time for 30 years feeding his family exclusively as a 1911 ‘smith. 30 years is longer than most companies currently making 1911’s have been in business. You’ve been getting 10 to 15 rounds out of your springs, interesting. I run leaf springs in my SAA’s until they fail, usually about 20 years, yet many people say they shouldn’t last that long.

We’ve had two quality 1911’s go down recently, both got up and running after a simple spring replacement. One went to a gunsmith at a hefty price but still wouldn’t run, we put a new recoil spring in it and it worked again. The other 1911 needed new magazine springs and then it went back to working again. So I’m sold on the idea of frequent spring replacement.

Dale53, you’ve really got something there with the kitchen scale, I’m going to look into that. Our local 1911 guy says to test the spring, roll it on a flat table. If it wobbles when it rolls, replace it. If it rolls smoothly then it’s probably good.

Last summer I met this old guy at a firearms conference, he is currently employed by Remington, he said used to work for Browning. John Browning’s grandson was seen replacing a customer’s 1911 spring. He said “Grandpa always said…” the 1911 runs on that spring.

To say somebody around here makes any money off selling springs is baloney.

I had one of those 4506’s ColColt refers to and carried it every day for about 8 years. No other semi-auto locks up as nice as that 4506, absolutely trustworthy.

I’ve been carrying a new model Colt daily a couple of years now and like it very much.

[MtGun44]

In my competition guns, I run a shock buff, and change the springs every 10-15,000 rds or whenever
I think they need it, by feel. Never anywhere near 2000 rds, for sure. My Kimber Custom
has the 2nd recoil spring ever in it and I put ~1000 rds through it in a course just this spring in two
days. My estimate is that the gun has at least 20-25K rds through it, but I have pretty much
lost count. Guessing that the current spring has 5-8K on it, but I don't keep close track. Looking
at how many boxes of a thousand comm cast H&G68 clones I have used up, easily more than
20K, but that is only from looking at a big stack of comm boolit boxes "going away" a couple of
times.

Works for me, do what you want. Lots of folks making money selling springs, it would seem. I'm
not selling anything.

Bill

[Thin Man]

S&W is installing an alloy thumb safety on their 1911 products. We have seen these break clean off from routine use. Most owners do not want a repeat of this failure and opt for us to install steel parts in place of the original alloy. These failures have been at the firing range, none known in duty or service usage so far. Wouldn't it be an attention getter to have gear failure during a social exchange. Food for thought....

Thin Man

[WARD O]

I have longed for a nice light weight 1911 and have had my eye on the S W 1911SC for some time. I wanted to add it to my other 1911 style guns - an old 38 Super, a series 70 Gold Cup and an STI in 40 S W. Being mostly a revolver shooter it wasn't real high on my priority list. A few weeks back my local dealer displayed a 1911 SC E series and as he owed me some money for goods sold, I took it home.

It now has about 400 rounds thru it. The first 200 were all hardball to get it started, and all went without fault. The next 200 have been a mix of various weight lead and JHP's and all without any spring changing. I have had two failure to feed with lead bullet 200 grain wad cutters. Other than that it has functioned perfectly.

When rested and doing my part groups at 25 yards will break under 3" and close in on 2" with several in one hole. Perhaps with a little more experience and attention to what it is fed, it will start to go under 2". The trigger is crisp and without creep.

With it's rounded butt the gun feels absolutely great in my hand. I have been carrying it a bit and almost forget I have it on - it feels right at home!

So far I have nothing but positive comments to offer! (and certainly nothing negative to say about my Colts or STI either.)

Ward

[ColColt]

S&W is installing an alloy thumb safety on their 1911 products. We have seen these break clean off from routine use. Most owners do not want a repeat of this failure and opt for us to install steel parts in place of the original alloy. These failures have been at the firing range, none known in duty or service usage so far. Wouldn't it be an attention getter to have gear failure during a social exchange. Food for thought....

Thin Man

Where does this information come from? The one on my SW1911 is steel. The only part I cared to replace was aluminum and I fixed that with an arched steel Smith and Alexander part-the mainspring housing.


I have longed for a nice light weight 1911 and have had my eye on the S W 1911SC for some time. I wanted to add it to my other 1911 style guns - an old 38 Super, a series 70 Gold Cup and an STI in 40 S W. Being mostly a revolver shooter it wasn't real high on my priority list. A few weeks back my local dealer displayed a 1911 SC E series and as he owed me some money for goods sold, I took it home.

Those are beautiful pistols. I too have lusted for one-all blue. I really don't care for a dark frame and SS slide. The other way around looks more appealing to me-sort of like the Colt Combat Elite..

[MtGun44]

What do you mean by "an alloy thumb safety"? All steels that you find are alloys. Do you
mean aluminum alloy? I have never, ever seen any small parts for any 1911s made in
aluminum alloy, and I have owned, worked on and handled a BUNCH of 1911s.

Bill

[WARD O]

After reading the comments, I went and checked on my 1911SC and the thumb safety is magnetic = steel!

Ward

[ColColt]

After much agonizing over which I wanted, I decided on the Commander but I procrastinated too long and someone else got it. To ease my disappointment over such a good price, too, I decided to get the SW1911SC E-Series...all blue model. It doesn't pay to be indecisive if you have the slightest hint in your mind to get something as somewhere, someone else has the same idea and you'd best get it while you can...lessons learned once more.

[jameslovesjammie]

Since you got the E-Series...would you be willing to do a writeup/review of the gun? I am kinda in the same boat you were in, but was looking at Dan Wesson and S&W.

[ColColt]

After a period of looking it over, a fair amount of lust building up and a couple of range sessions, I'd be glad to. There are other write ups on the Internet about this marvelous, beautiful looking pistol already. This is about the E-Series in general and not quite specific to the one I'm getting.

http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2011/04/s-e-series-detailed-review.html

This one is...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/benjamin-t-shotzberger/gun-review-smith-wesson-e-series-sw1911sc/