Help with a turk Mauser.

[greywuuf]

hey guys, I was given many years ago a nice Small ring turk mauser action.
no barrel no wood no trigger guard or magazine. it has a Square bottom bolt and is marked on the top of the ring with ANK one one side of the crescent and ARA on the other
below that it is stamped with a 1939.

Any idea what this is, where I might find the "bottom metal" for it why it has a small external threaded extension on the front of the action, and if it is suitable for a "rhineland" 45 acp kit ?

Thanks,
Dan

[docone31]

The Turks are basically 98s with large ring, small ring threads. Everything else fits. A Swedish Mauser barrel will go right in, and Small Ring thread barrels will go on with turning the front stock ring off the action.
They are a nice action. If it says K-Kale you got a winner.

[greywuuf]

this one is most definately NOT a large ring, not if the dimmensions I am getting on the net are correct.

[docone31]

Might not be a Turk then.
Turks were large ring, small ring threads.

[greywuuf]

Or I might not know the difference between a large ring and a small ring. Front ring of this one measures right at 1.3 with my calipers. The barrel thread look to be a lot larger (percentage wise compared to the front ring) than the pictures I have seen of the large ring small thread combinations I have seen. I will try to get some pictures up tonight. One web site I was on stayed that there are small ring Turks, just as the other countries, and the preponderance of small ring barrels is exactly why there are large ring small thread receivers. Makes sense to me.
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[frnkeore]

Large ring threads are 1.102" (28mm) diameter. Small ring are .984" (25mm)or so, both 12 pitch.

Frank

[greywuuf]

Is that major or minor .....I find it a little difficult to measure to the bottom of the thread pitch in an inside hole. And the thread size won't definatively tell me which action I have. (At least not if they are small)
How do I tell what action this is ?
I have given the markings and the outside dimensions of the ring, no one going to offer an opinion?

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[Ed in North Texas]

I seem to remember that there were Turks which had the threading changed during an arsenal rebuild. Just going on recollection, which is not the most accurate all the time.

Here's a PDF from Brownell's about the Turk threading problem:

http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/turkishmausers.pdf

That comment about the bolt being a flat bottom bolt screams converted '93 Mauser to me. But I could be wrong (my wife tells me I am all the time).

Ed

[frnkeore]

The large ring ID should be about 1.018, the small ring should be about .900.

Frank

[greywuuf]

I am not sure where we got off on conversion and thread size......


Ok I am NOT that up on mausers, but to my understanding "98's" are big ring and the earlier are not?


I think I stated " I have a small ring Turkish mauser". The measurements I have taken seem to support this. I have no reason to question that if it is a small ring then it is threaded for small ring barrels.

What I don't know is does that make it a 93? 95. ? Does it matter, I mean are they different or is that just the year of manufacture?

I gather the small rings have a different spacing for the stock mounting screws. Where can I find bottom metal for it. Is it still acceptable to build a .45 ACP carbine from? Or is it so old and unknown that even that is suspect. Oh.... How do I tell for Sure if it is a small or large ring?.....like can I measure the ring or something? I think that would be a good starting point to know for certain which it is.

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[looseprojectile]

Years ago I got stuck with a Turk "93" Mauser looking rifle. Not made by Mauser.

Mine is a long rifle and has a mis matched bolt. [square bottom]. Is marked the same as you state yours is. Has the year stamped 1956. Astonishing to discover that anyone would make such an antiquated gun such as this in 1956. That must be the year it was converted.

This rifle has had some sort of a magazine cut off at some time in it's previous life and now it is non operable.

This gun is chambered in 8mm mauser and I have not fired it in twenty or so years. I suspect it started out as a 7.65 Belgian/Turk. If you live close enough to do face to face transfer I will give you the rifle.

Not worth it to me to go to the trouble to send it anywhere.
Your action will be plenty strong for the .45 auto cartridge.

Life is good

[greywuuf]

Thanks Frank, I don't have it with me and still don't know if that is to the "top" of the threads or to the bottom, but I will check. The only measurement I took was the front ring OD and that was 1.3"

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[greywuuf]

looseprojectile, I apreciate the offer, but as I am in Alaska i dont think it would work out. Good point you made on the mag cut off, mine has a rectangular Slot milled ( filed ,cut ?) in the 'bottom' of the right side receiver wall near the Rear bridge/ring, I am assuming it was a mag cutoff as well. And by square bolt I mean it is a round bolt, but the Bottom "feed" locking lug has a square profile it is not round like the other. Very obvious when looking at the face of the bolt, and in fact I am thinking it might hang up on a standard .45acp mag if the mag was seated too deeply,

[looseprojectile]

I would just grind it to function. A round bolt will work as well as a square one.

Life is good.

[flounderman]

the turks had some small ring mausers. if it has a square bottom on the bolt face it is a 93. should have an oval gas escape port on the front ring. small ring mausers are the same size all the way up the left side. the front ring is the same size as the rest of the action. large ring have an enlarged front ring. the later turks had large ring outside dimensions, and small ring threads. later they had large ring, with large ring threads. the ones with the small ring threads have a tall clip slot, the bolt release has a projection that goes from the front of the release to the top of the clip slot, and a groove in the rear of the top of the front receiver ring. the 93, 94, 95,and 96 small ring threaded barrels will interchange but that doesn't mean headspace will be right or that the sights will be on top.

[Uncle Grinch]

I noticed you mentioned the bolt was flat on the bottom. As far as I remember, flat bottom bolts were only used on the small ring 93 Mausers, most commonly, Spanish, Chiliean, and Turks.

Does it cock on closing? If so, then you have a version of the typical SR Mauser.

[greywuuf]

Yes it is cock on closing 3 position wing safety/takedown , Clip slot ( not raised) in the rear ring, projection on the bolt release(curved to match the receiver that extends to the top clip slot) and thumb cut in the left receiver wall, and the front ring is "remington like" in that it looks as though the receiver was made from a TUBE( aside from it being a flat bottom action) front ring is no larger than any point of the rails.

Thank you all, A few little questions remain, what is up with the outside threaded ( just a couple thread) projection on the front ring and where might I find a trigger guard for such and action.?


thanks Dan

i dont recall there being any gas releifs in the ring.

[shotman]

barrels will inter change most cut the ring off on the front of receiver that was for the old handguard. to lock in. I had one and had barrel changed and ground the ring off so it was easy to fit

[shawnsmc]

You can find the trigger guard at Numrich Gun Parts Corp. it is item #1064900 and their phone # is 866.686.7424
Hope this helps,
Shawn

[excess650]

My Turk is a 1944 K Kale and has a 1.400" front ring and cocks when the bolt handle is lifted, so yours is different. You've already confirmed that it ISN'T a '98 since its cock on closing.

[greywuuf]

Thank you all! I have E-mails off to Springfield sporters and to rhineland. I think I have enough info now that I can begin the process. Just waiting on my paycheck now. 5 group buy molds seems to have seriously depleted my spending money.

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[Ragnarok]

The Turks turned anything that resembled a bolt-action rifle into 'M38' rifles..which is basicaly a collector's terminology name for the usual Turkish M98 style long rifles you see around often.

Older M93 actions..M98 actions...M88..Enfields from Gallipoli..anything the Turks could scrape together and refurbish got turned into 8mm long rifles...including several older styles of 7.65mm chambered Turkish Mauser rifles.

The Turks were gearing up because WWII was starting to rage..and they needed anything they could get(cheaply)

[greywuuf]

I am uploading some pictures of it now, I think it will make a nice little .45acp carbine.
Will edit when I get the pictures hosted.
This should clear things up

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6096/6310541353_03efbf0191_z.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6091/6311067750_8c297ac8d2_z.jpg

[greywuuf]

one more, maybe someone can tell me what the slot is for ?
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6031/6311066250_48a33b4e8b_z.jpg

[Uncle Grinch]

one more, maybe someone can tell me what the slot is for ?


The slot is where the magazine cutoff used to be. Some of the 93 Turk Mausers had a magazine cutoff in order to hold or reserve ammo in the magazine. The same principal applies to the 03 Springfield, which also has a cutoff.

[Ragnarok]

the action was originaly part of a rifle chambered for 7.65x53mm

[greywuuf]

Two weeks out on the rhineland 45acp kit. they are out of ejectors. I think there is enough there to make a fun little carbine, i figure some file work and a fresh park job it will be a tough looking little toy!, perfect for experimenting with various cast bullets and loads!

Dan,

Thanks for hanging with me and getting this thing ID'd you guys are the best.

[mroliver77]

Everytime I see somebody build a .45 on a SR Mauser my (I want one) light starts flashing! Keep us informed on your progress.
J

[greywuuf]

This might be the one that puts me over the edge into the world of NFA. I hear that after the first one others follow.

[flounderman]

post a want to buy for a 93 mauser trigger guard assembly and you might find one cheaper than numrich. I don't know what your plans are for it but if you are thinking 45 acp, does that conversion have a trigger guard or does it fit in the magazine well? seems like a short case for that action. never seen one so I don't know how they work. 35 remington is an acceptable chambering for a 93 and would be a lot less problems and more power than a 45 acp

[greywuuf]

the conversion as i see it is a "variation" on the Delisle carbine of WWII short barrel and perfect for supression. also uses standard 1911 mags. I am not looking to make a real rifle out of this thing, it is just a "neato" little thing, for no good reason at . the trigger gaurd is used.. there is a filler box that replaces the magazine box. Th floor plate is removed.

if I ever get it all and get serious about it i will post some pictures.

[gidgaf]

The Turks ... Turked everything they could get. ie:
I have a Turked '88, and a '98. The '88 receiver/barrel is numbered the same, but for the shroud and bolt. The bolt parts have their own but same numbers. So, it's a rearsenal. Llike a lot of them, some were redone more than once. If yours was factory repaired, then Turked, and then arsenal repaired again you could still have a good shooting gun. With a smorgasborg of misc parts from different parts of the world.
Until I saw your pictures, it sounded a lot like you had a Turked '88. It still looks kinda like one. Maybe a Turked '93?

[Larry Gibson]

The magazine "filler" block does not replace the magazine box; it fits into it. The floor plate is not used as mentioned. Might take a bit of filing on the sides of the "filler" block to get it to fit as far forward in the mag well as possible as you want to keep the jump from mag to chamber as short as possible.

Also a dremil with small grinders is needed to shape the sides of the mag well for the mag catch to fit. Before grinding for the mag catch fit the block in the mag well and then with the bolt in the action, the mag attached with action screws correctly to the action and a mag in the block fit the block up into the mag well until the mag feed lips are just off the bottem of the bolt. Mark the filler ( scribed a line along the bottem edge of the mag well) or secured in place to drill the holes for the 3 retaining roll pins. You'll have to secured the mag in the proper location where the mag catch will hold it. The mag catch can't be used as it won't fit into the mag well until modified. All the above should be done before milling/grinding out for the mag catch as that's where you find where to grind. Grind the mag well for as close a fit to the catch as you can as if over done the mag catch retainer won't work (don't ask me how I know that!).

The mag "filler" blocks are made one size for all LR and SR magazines so individual fitting is critical to the particular magaine well used.

Larry Gibson

[greywuuf]

Now if I only had a mag well.

Homeland defense begins at home. I'm not there. Sent from a mobile device using a commercial app.

[DCM]

On the left is a standard large ring 98 on the right is a standard K KALE "large ring small shank" or small ring Turk Mauser. The O.D. on the 1941 turk is slightly larger than the O.D. on the large ring 98, but the I.D. threads are much smaller.
another good page is here http://www272.pair.com/stevewag/turk/turkmain.html

Edit: added pic

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g327/odcmp/LS.jpg

[greywuuf]

DCM thank you, Yes I have seen that page. I think those are both "Large rings" mine is definitely a small ring. Just got the package slip..... my Rhineland Kit is in ! to bad I can't pick it up till tomorrow.

[DCM]

The O.D. of both is that of a large ring. The I.D. of the Turk. on the right will only take a small ring barrel, the 98 on the left will only take a large ring barrel.

We "faced off" the Turk on the right to square it up and remove the extra lip for the stock. We made our own centering tool to hold the receiver out of the old barrel by turning it down by the threads near the ft. sight base, cutting the length down and welding the end shut as a CYA for NFA.

Another interesting thing with the Turk on the right is that the fire position of the safety is all the way to the left versus the 98 which is all the way to the right.

[swheeler]

nother interesting thing with the Turk on the right is that the fire position of the safety is all the way to the left versus the 98 which is all the way to the right.

All my 98 mausers have safeties that are FIRE with wing in full left position, SAFE with wing vertical in center/bolt unlocked and SAFE with bolt locked with wing full right position.

[Multigunner]

There was a Model 1892 Mauser that had features of the 1891 and features later carried over to the 1893. The 1892 had a magazine cut off and a single row magazine like that of the 1891. The 92 was the first to use the non rotating extractor common to the 93, 94, 96, and 98 Mausers.

I've seen a photo of an 1892 Mauser described as a Turkish Mauser. I believe they bought a few in 7.65 caliber early on. The 92 did not catch on so its fairly rare and seldom encountered.