45 acp crimps ????

[OnHoPr]

I read months ago that someone was crimping 45 ACPs. Then a couple of months ago a thought hit me. Why was someone or the practice of crimping a 45ACP or for that matter any straight walled pistol boolit, such as the 40S&W, 10MM, etc. Those cartridges head space on the mouth of the case, correct?:???: Then a couple of weeks ago I got into a chat with a gentleman at GM at the reloading section. I brought up the concept and asked him about it. He said that the boolit can head space on the lands or the rim on the extraction claw. mmm,uhh,what. So I ask this question, do you or can you crimp a boolit (especially cast) in these type of cases? I'm referring to the case mouth crimping inwards beyond the chambers head spacing ridge. I don't reload for any of these types of cartridges but I've always had a Gold Cup on the wish list. Basically, just asking for general info for possibles in the future.:Fire:

[theperfessor]

Depends on the type of crimp. Most auto cartridges are taper crimped, which turns the bell or neck flare back in and straightens the case out at the neck. Unless over-applied it shouldn't be enough to reduce the bullet diameter. A roll crimp is usually used on revolver cases. This type of crimp rolls the neck down into crimp groove. If over-applied it can actually reduce neck tension as the case mouth bottoms out on the bottom of the crimp groove and swells the neck outward away from the bullet.

Some folks roll crimp auto cases and rely on the extractor to hang on to the case to provide headspace, or seat the bullet out enough to jam into the throat. I don't but I won't argue with the folks that do.

Never used a Lee Crimp die but some folks here have had problems with it sizing the case down enough to reduce bullet diameter.

In neither case will the crimp make up for inadequate neck tension.

[KYCaster]

Crimping auto pistol ammo is not absolutely necessary, but some crimp is desirable to prevent the bullet from telescoping into the case during the feeding cycle.

While headspacing on the case mouth is the ideal and desirable situation, variations in chamber dimensions and brass length don't always allow that to happen. Headspacing on the bullet or on the extractor is very common and doesn't seem to cause any reliability problems.

Consider the fact that 380ACP will feed and fire in a 9mm gun, 9mm and 38 Super will feed and fire in a .40 S&W, and .40 S&W and 10mm will feed and fire in a 45ACP. This wouldn't be possible if it were necessary for the round to headspace on the case mouth.

Jerry

[MtGun44]

Common claim is that the 1911 headspaces on the extractor. A bit of close examination
of the parts will show that this is not possible with anything remotely like a normal, even
very short, case.

Even with a good, solid taper crimp the round headspaces on the case. Easy to verify with
a dismounted barrel.

Plus, even if a 1911 round was pushed literally 1/4" ahead of the breech face, the firing pin
would reach it.

Bill

[44man]

Some crimp is needed to hold the bullet, either in the magazine or during feeding.

[KCSO]

What is called a taper crimp iis really more like putting the case mouth back from the bell. There is very little actual crimp. The 45 acp does headspace on the ctg and this was always the problem with the 38 super it had a very small semi rim and no case mouth haedspace so the cases mostly relied on the extractor to headspace and it just didn't work, lousy accuracy. The newer guns headspace off the case mouth and are super (NPI) accurate.

[Cannoneer]

I read months ago that someone was crimping 45 ACPs. Then a couple of months ago a thought hit me. Why was someone or the practice of crimping a 45ACP or for that matter any straight walled pistol boolit, such as the 40S&W, 10MM, etc. Those cartridges head space on the mouth of the case, correct?:???: Then a couple of weeks ago I got into a chat with a gentleman at GM at the reloading section. I brought up the concept and asked him about it. He said that the boolit can head space on the lands or the rim on the extraction claw. mmm,uhh,what. So I ask this question, do you or can you crimp a boolit (especially cast) in these type of cases? I'm referring to the case mouth crimping inwards beyond the chambers head spacing ridge. I don't reload for any of these types of cartridges but I've always had a Gold Cup on the wish list. Basically, just asking for general info for possibles in the future.:Fire:

All the above info is right on for shooting in Auto pistols. However, there are a few of us that shoot the .45 ACP in Revolvers and use half-moon or full-moon clips to help extract the fired cases from the cylinder. In revolvers we normally roll crimp the case to keep the bullet from jumping forward during recoil.

[2shot]

Yes I crimp to .470 for Bullseye shooting with lead 200 grain SWC. Without the crimp one may find that he gets alibi's because the case mouth hangs up. Much more that .470 and you run into headspace problems. Some BE shooters swear by seating the bullet out far and letting the rifling engage the front drive band of the SWC saying that this takes care of the headspace problem BUT if your case is too short or you over crimp the case can be driven in to the point of being dangerous even with the long seated bullet.

So the simple answer is YES crimp to .470.

2shot

[Char-Gar]

Every round of factory 45 acp ammo has some kind of crimp at the case mouth. There is a reason.

1. It removes any bell from the case mouth
2. It keep the bullets from being shoved back when they hit the feed ramp.
3. It keep the bullets in the mag from moving during recoil and action cycling.
4. It gives tension to aid on proper powder combustion.

The 45 ACP is a very simple and easy round to load for function and accuracy in the 1911 pistol, yet we have many folks coming here for help because they are having issues. Quite often we find, folks are not crimping or crimping wrong.

I am talking taper crimp here.

[Dale53]

I shoot nothing but cast bullets in my revolvers and autos. My .45ACP's, loaded for the 1911, head space on the bullet and are taper crimped to .470" with the Lee Factory Crimp die. My bullets are sized at .452" and the Lee die does NOT reduce the size of the bullet.

I have an interchangeable roll crimp insert and adaptor for the Lee Factory Crimp Die (available from Lee for a nominal sum) that I use when shooting Auto Rim cases in my revolvers when using bullets with a crimp groove (NOE clone of the Lyman 454424).

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

I have about 30 years of time-in-grade with the 45 ACP, and have never attempted to use the bullet as the headspacing reference. Call me uninformed, but this is a novel concept to me for this caliber/application.

My original die set for the 45 ACP is a 1980-made RCBS tungsten carbide combo, including a roll-crimp seater die. I never had difficulties using the roll-crimp shoulder to just straighten out the case mouth flare, and also used this same die with deeper adjustment to set a roll crimp into the Lyman #454490 SWCs I loaded for a long-gone Model 25-2.

Some years later, I obtained a taper-crimp die for both the 45 ACP and the 9mm. Used as a separate die step, these are effective for their intended purpose with either jacketed to cast bullets.

Where issues crop up is in using taper-crimp seating dies. My experiences have shown that seating a bullet and applying a taper crimp at the same time results in uneven seating depths and/or gouging of boolit sidewalls during the seating operation. My 40 S&W/10mm seater die is such a beast (taper-crimp type), and I have FAR BETTER results when I seat bullets then follow that step with a separate taper crimp application. And you need not get a dedicated taper crimp die per se--a re-adjusted taper crimp seater die or a sizer die with decapping assembly removed can be adjusted to apply a very fine taper crimp, which as stated above is really little more than a straightening of the case mouth flare.

Sola mi dos centavos.

[MtGun44]

Yes - Good points, Al.

A taper crimp is best used as a separate operation, not a combo die seating the boolit and
crimping it in the same operation.

My .45 ACP loads have a noticable diameter change at the mouth, but still hit the chamber
shoulder without a problem. For 1911s, one of the most common cause of feeding problems
by new reloaders has been inadequate or no taper crimp. Adding an adequate TC made
the feeding problem go away in almost all cases. This is from coaching many new IPSC
shooters over the last 30+ yrs. Wrong LOA is the next most common issue, but the two
get tangled up together.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

9.2 X62 AL

I have been using the barrel as a bullet seating guide for many years. I seat the bullets until they case head is flush with the barrel hood. A good straight edge is very useful here. This compensates for any difference there might be in case length.

I then taper crimp the round using a factory round as a guide.

With any round, handgun or rifle that require a crimp (taper or roll) I seat the bullets and crimp in separate operations.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

If the taper crimp just removes the bell why can't the boolit be seated and crimped at the same time?

[Dale53]

I fully agree with Al regarding a four die set. When I started loading, two die sets were the norm. The three die sets were a big step up. When four die sets became available, I kind of felt like I died and went to heaven.

Al,
When using lead bullets I am a believer in headspacing on the bullet - simply because I almost NEVER have found a .45 ACP case as long as the minimum specified length. I firmly believe, and have proven to my satisfaction with Ransom Rest tests, that I get better accuracy with consistent ignition. Headspacing on the bullet gives me consistent ignition.

ICH;
If the cases vary at all in length (and they often due even if trimmed from time to time) you can get slightly more "turn in" than you anticipate. It can roll up a band of lead ahead of the case causing chambering difficulties. Further, I taper crimp to .470" outside diameter at the case mouth. At that dimension, the mouth of the case bites into the bullet just a bit helping to prevent deep seating when feeding.

Dale53

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Dale, I see where that could happen. I guess I have just been luck as it hasn't happened to me.

I also headspace on the bullet, but do not crimp to slightly dig into the bullet. I just remove the flare. I just barely flare enough to get the base of the boolit in the case and the completed rounds would probably work without using the taper crimp at all.

I guess you just gotta do whatever is safe and works for you!

[Flinchrock]

I never could figure out why die sets years ago came with ROLL crimping dies for .45 ACP, did they think that everyone was going to load for revolvers?

I do like most here and taper crimp seperately, for those that don't use any crimp, well, good luck with that...

Like has been noted, I too, have hardly ever seen cases long enough to need trimming. I trim to get a common length to get a consistant crimp. As far as headspace goes, I figured consistant was more important than exact, unless a case was too long and you don't see that very much at all!

[Char-Gar]

If the taper crimp just removes the bell why can't the boolit be seated and crimped at the same time?

Because the bullet won't be fully seated when the crimp starts, shaving some lead from the bullet.

[Char-Gar]

You can use a roll crimp, but you must be very careful and not go to far.

Some years back, the American Rifleman/NRA published a collection of good articles on loading for the 45 ACP in the 1911 pistol. One of the articles reprinted details tests using various crimps/case mouth reductions and their various effect on accuracy. To do it that way, you use a micrometer to measure just how much you turn the case mouth in and it is very little.

[35remington]

I'm going to slay someone's favorite notions here about taper crimping in this post, but please bear with me because you may determine this for your own self.

I'll invite all here concerned to perform a little test.

Take a 45 ACP bullet. Cast or jacketed, .451" or .452". Place a little dacron in an unsized case to hold the bullet at the proper elevation, and run it into your taper crimp die. Taper crimp to the "approved" .470." This will help determine the taper crimp's effect.....alone....on bullet retention.

Now, if it isn't terribly loose already and easily moved, tap the taper crimped case and its bullet nose first against the loading bench.

Notice the bullet doesn't stay in place. At all.

Taper crimping to .470" does absolutely nothing to hold the bullet in place. With a jacketed bullet, due to the absence of a sharp "shoulder" formed in the bullet jacket, even a much heavier crimp than .470" does nothing to hold the bullet in place.

Measure a case's wall thickness near the mouth. Multiply it times two, add to diameter of bullet. Now you'll see why the oft recommended .470" taper crimp does nothing to hold the bullet in place.....there's essentially no "crimp" whatsoever on anything.

When taper crimps approach and go below .462 to .465", depending upon case wall thickness, a taper crimp will hold a cast bullet in place because a "shoulder" is formed in the sidewalls of the bullet that serves to abut the case mouth and prevent bullet movement. Not for a jacketed bullet, because the harder jacket resists this shoulder formation, and the bullet still moves.

The "taper crimp holds the bullet in place" idea has no validity in the dimension it is normally "recommended" to apply to the mouth of the case.

This is easily tested for oneself. I am greatly surprised someone hasn't done this long before now.

In further point of fact, the taper crimp must be applied to well below normal diameters to prevent proper headspacing on the case mouth......look at the inside diameter of the chamber stop shoulder in spec drawings for 45 ACP chambers, for example. It is much smaller than the case mouth diameter even after a savage taper crimp is applied.

Taper crimping affecting headspace is a complete non starter unless you're taper crimping as hard as you can in a Corbin swage die. In other words, not possible in practical effect.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

35 rem has hit the nail on the head.

When I seat and crimp in one step the case mouth never digs into the side of the boolitt, causing lead shavings. We meticulously cast and size boolits to appropriate diameters for accuracy. Over (taper) crimping can run the risk of distorting these boolits.

I merely "bump" the case mouth back close to its origianl position before I flared it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I use mostly Plated bullets in my G21 in .45 ACP. I jsut loaded about 300 last night on my Dillon SDB.

The Taper crimp on these rounds was set at .470 measured at the case mouth. There is plenty of case mouth left to headspace on.

.470 is the magic number guys. That is what it is supposed to be.

The plated bullets I use are 230 gr Xtreme brand and the case does dig into the side of the bullet as there is no cannelure. However the crimp doesn't size the bullet as it is only located at the case mouth itself and not all the way down the bullet.

Randy

[Char-Gar]

I continue to be amazed how much controversy can be created about how to handload the 45 ACP round for the 1911 pistol. The round and pistol has 100 years of history and countless millions of rounds of handloaded ammo have been fired. We have broken the code on this generations ago.

I have loaded at least 250,000 rounds of cast bullet 45 ACP rounds that have gone through dozens of 1911 pistols over the past 50 years. I just don't understand why folks continue to make it such a mystery and such a chore.

This reminds me of the theological discussion 500 years ago about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

[2shot]

35 Remington

You may be right but I think it would depend on who's brass you are using. I know in Bullseye shooting almost nobody uses Remington brass. The prefered brass is Federal because they are the thickest (at the case mouth) followed by Winchester and Star. If I use Remington brass I can do as you described and push the bullet into the case after seating and crimping, not so with Federal or the Star brass I use. Others in our club say that Winchester brass is the same as Star or Federal but I have never used it.

Remington brass isn't used because it will not hold the bullet in place at the "magic" .470 like Federal, Winchester or Star will. Remington is the thinest brass when measured at the case mouth.

Just my findings after years of shooting Bullseye. YMMV

2shot

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I don't think anyone is telling you to change your ways or that their way is the best way. 35Rem is just stating a fact about the taper crimp and what it actually does. The taper crimp, for new reloaders, can be a difficult concept to grasp. Unfortunately many new reloaders feel that the taper crimp is the only thing that will prevent setback and want to get it "just right."

How much taper crimp you apply or your thoughts about what the taper crimp actually does is your business. No one is telling you to change your ways.


I just don't understand why folks continue to make it such a mystery and such a chore.

If anything, this should HELP and not make it such a mystery anymore!

As I have said before, do whatever is safe and works for you.

Happy shooting to all!

[9.3X62AL]

I think "controversy" might be too strong a word for the matter at hand. From my time on this site, I have seen discussions get WAY excited on the subject of "headspace", even to the point of digital fisticuffs over the very definition of "headspace"! Let's NOT go there, folks.

I agree that few 45 ACP cases have sufficient length to serve as firm delineators of a cartridge's stop-point within a chamber. I presume this is the rationale for using the bullet/boolit front edge or ogive to set headspace. Interesting as heck, 'cause I now have a 45 ACP pistol with sufficient accuracy to discern such subtleties--a Colt GCNM. I see a winter project on the horizon.

One application I have used a roll crimp die or a sizer die to wedge a case mouth into a boolit sidewall is the 7.62 x 25. That worked very handily to prevent boolit push-back/telescoping during feedramp contact. The dinky necks on 30 Mauser, 7.62 x 25, and 30 Luger can be unholy bee-otches when it comes to bullet retention.

[Dale53]

I have mic'd a number of brands of .45 ACP cases. When I was shooting IPSC, back in the late seventies (right after it was organized) I learned that the thin Remington brass was a NO-NO. I discarded ALL Remington brass. My favorite brass was Military - I still have several thousand military cases. It only takes one time through the RCBS primer pocket swage and the cases are "good to go"...

My military cases measure .011" thickness at the case mouth. My cast bullet diameter is .452". Add bullet diameter to the two thicknesses of brass - .452"+.011"+.011" and you get .474". That (with a loaded round "mouth of case" crimp of .470") along with sufficient case neck tension, works to prevent deep seating. .470", as has been pointed out, is NOT enough to negate headspacing on the case mouth, if that is your goal.

I have been head spacing on the bullet for near 200,000 rounds of cast bullets in my 1911's. I have two "built up" pistols that are accurate enough to appreciate consistent ignition and yet, function with as near perfect as functioning as is possible.

That's my story, and I am sticking with it...:mrgreen:

Dale53

[35remington]

What the "commonly headspaces on the extractor" argument stumbles on in the 1911 design is the very generous extractor hook/breechface clearance that exists. This means the case head must be a very extra generous distance from the breechface before the case rim will headspace on the extractor, which almost always precludes extractor headspacing even with short cases and a maximum headspace dimension.

Doesn't happen anywhere near as often as many imply it does. Not never, but certainly not very often.

2shot, the old R - P brass has trouble holding the bullet even in the sized state, but I'm not talking about those. Those run less than 0.009" per side, but are not part of this example point I'm trying to make. Current Remington cases are a little thicker and don't have the issues the really old stuff did, but that doesn't matter.

Pick whichever cases you will.....Winchester, Federal, PMC, etc. Not just Remington. Those will vary from 0.010 to 0.011."

Taper crimp an unsized case. Now check for bullet movement at .470" crimp. Cast or jacketed, .451 or .452."

All move with a gentle tap.

As I stated, try the taper crimp alone. One half the thickness of a piece of common writing paper (0.004 inch thick) per side "bite" into the bullet in the best case using a .452" bullet in a 0.011" case wall (or, at most, 0.002" per side) don't help much. Brass thickness is toleranced such that with .452" diameter loaded bullet, the maximum SAAMI diameter of the seated bullet/case combo cannot greatly exceed the .473" specified maximum behind the case mouth.....and it doesn't.

If the case mouth has a chamfer, the "bite" into the side of the bullet is even less than this figure with a .470" crimp because the extremely tiny "shoulder" in the bullet has a brass and lead "ramp" in front of it that allows the bullet to move more easily.

My point is this: If you want the taper crimp to aid in preventing bullet movement, better crimp the lead bullet more than is commonly recommended. Little help is provided to jacketed bullets even with much more severe degrees of crimp.

Try it as I have suggested.

[MtGun44]

+1 on 35 Rem's comment on headspacing on the extractor. A close examination of the
assembled barrel and slide assy with an empty case chambered, sitting on the bench
upside down with a strong light will show how nearly impossible this concept is in practice.
You would need a case about .025-.030 too short to get into this realm, not too likely.

I primarily am concerned with the taper crimp from a feeding reliability point of view. I have
observed that no or inadequate TC will cause jams in a 1911 with 200 SWC ammo.

Again - like several others, I have loaded several hundred thousand .45 ACPs for IPSC and
some target shooting over the last 30+ yrs. Also noted thin necks with Rem brass, not a
factor with a tight enough sizer die - mine leaves a noticable bulge under the base of the
boolit (200 H&G 68 clone), so I am not much concerned with the Rem brass issues. Other
sizer dies may not size the case down enough for this super tight neck tension.

I really feel for Char Gar's comments. This is not a hard cartridge to load, and I have assisted
a bunch of newbies on making large quantities of reliable ammo for IPSC competition over
the years. Once they get the LOA right and add a moderate TC (my recommendation has
been to use a magnifier and push the neck into the boolit about 1/2 the thickness of the
brass, by eyeball). This works fine, never bothered to do anything more precise than this
method because I never have needed to.

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have seen this headspacing on the extractor phenom with Makarovs..

A few years ago the FBI walked into my shop and asked If I would allow them to shoot my gun for a test.

They wouldn't tell me why, and I asked how they knew I even had and "aftermarket barrel" in my gun. They wouldn't tell me, so I declined.

I immediately called the outfit I bought the barrel from and demanded to know how the F the FBI found out I had one of their barrels. They didn't want to tell me either but I eventually pryed it out of them. They had given their sales records to the FBI! The comanies name was FAC and they are no longer with us! and good ridance!

It seems a big time WA state politician had been shot in his basement with Makarov with an aftermarket 9x18 barrel, but using a .380 ACP cartridge.

I immediately said well the firing pin won't hit the primer so it won't fire.

Later that nite a friend gave me a few .380 rounds and I tried single loading them, and if you had the gun pointed down it wouldn't fire,,,, However if you pointed the gun UP, it would!

It would also cycle quite nicely if the rounds were fed from the magazine, and this is because the extractor was holding the live round against the breech face.

This was a case of .040 extra headspace and the gun still fired. The bullet probably bounced off the sides of the barrel as it was exiting, and I doubt you could hit anything, but somebody hit that politician, and he stilll hasn't been found and the case is still open.

It can be done.

Randy

[35remington]

Sure, it can be done, with a case that is clearly too short, as in the wrong caliber. Especially in other automatics that have less extractor hook/breechface clearance.

But with 45 ACP cases in a 45 ACP 1911, it's not going to happen except rarely. The gun's tolerances are such that breechface/extractor hook clearances are greater than headspace clearances.

This is as the designer intended it, and the fact that a 1911 headspaces on the extractor only very rarely using the proper ammunition should not come as a surprise. If it does headspace on the extractor, something is really out of spec or someone's trying to shoot GAP ammo in an ACP.

[Dutchman]

I started loading .45 acp in a very nice Colt LW Commander in 1968 at age 16. It was my first handgun cartridge to handload. I was taught to disassemble the gun and use the barrel as a seating depth gauge, i.e. headspace on the bullet. Never had a problem using a roll crimp with this method.

Nowadays I load for my 1933 Colt Gov't using a taper crimp die. Never have a problem.

Dutch

[Char-Gar]

9.3... The use of language is a continual source of miscommunication and misunderstanding on this board. " Controversy" can mean to some a discussion that gets heated, to others it simply means a protracted discussion where there is not consensus. I use it in the latter way.

How to load the 45 ACP round for the 1911 pistol seems to be a staple topic around here. It is a recurring issue for discussion and opinions. I just don't seem to understand how it can continue to be such a frequent topic without consensus in light of the century of experience we have with the round in that pistol. There is nothing new, novel or unknown about the whole thing.

I don't guess it really matters if folks like to revisit this time and time, and time again just for the fun of it. But those of us with several generations of experience with the round and the pistol, will just keep loading and shooting and let others keep trying to reinvent the wheel.

Who knows, they may yet figure out what makes this pistol work!

[9.3X62AL]

Who knows, they may yet figure out what makes this pistol work!

THAT would take all the fun out of it, Charles! :)

Seriously, I've not yet tried the "headspace on bullet ogive/drive band" in my pistols. Should be an interesting test.

[Markbo]

I guess I am just lucky. I never considered MOST of the information here and found a couple of different bullets and a load that shoots great in all my 1911's. I just set the OAL, a taper crimp per the die's instructions and all was well. Ignorance is bliss!

[Char-Gar]

I have been using the barrel as a bullet seating gauge for well over 25 years and it works just great. But, I was not having problems before I did that either.

The long and short of it is, the 1911 pistol as originally designed, is a very reliable pistol and quite easy to reload for.

For some reason I do not quite understand, folks feel they just must improve the pistol and over think the cartridge.

A good set of sights helps out. I have stock Colt sights on my Colt GM (2005 vintage)and King Hardball on my two Norincos. The triggers have had all contact surfaces smoothed and polished. Other than that they are box stock and all three shoot very well.

Oh yes, I did install a Colt barrel on one of the Norincos. I just happen to have one hanging out in the parts box. The bushing is so tight I need a wrench to install it. Seems to have upped accuracy a tad, but I have not put in on paper in a serious way to find out.

[Shooter6br]

I agree crimp betweem .468 to .470

[Dale53]

NOTE:
Most of us here are cast bullet shooters. Cast bullets work VERY well when you headspace on the bullet. Any slight over length or minor "dirt" in the chamber and the relatively soft bullet will still seat effectively.

However, if you are using jacketed bullets, the hardness of the jacket will not allow a bullet to seat fully if the chamber is dirty. So, my solution when using jacketed bullets (rarely) is to allow a few thousandths extra room. My suggestion, if you must use jacketed bullets, is (using the barrel for a gauge) to seat just "slightly" under flush with the barrel hood.

FWIW
Dale53

[Char-Gar]

Dale.. I started loading for the 1911 pistol about 1962, It was a stock Remington-Rand 1911A1. Of the 1/4 million rounds I had put together, not one had a jacketed bullets. I just finished loading another 400 rounds today and yep, cast bullets again.

I sure like that pistol and that round. I have about 60 other handguns and have owned a hundred or so more and in my book the "Government 45" is still top dog.

The only time I ever had to fire a pistol to get out of a tight social situation it was the old Remington-Rand. Nobody got shot, just a round into the ceiling was all it took to encourage folks to clear a path for me to get to the door. It was a 452423 over 4.8 grains of Bulleye. That same load is in a Norinco 1911A1 just a few inches from my hand as I type this. 48 years later, it is still a good load. I tend to stick with things that work.

I have taken several deer, some coyotes, javalina, jackrabbits and porcupines with that load. While not a magnum, it still strikes with great authority.

[Dale53]

:drinks:

Dale53