22LR Black Powder Reloads - How to Make Them

[John Boy]

A pictorial of how I make my 22LR black powder reloads:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1444.jpg

Cases: Empty Primed ArmsCor Cases purchased from the Hunting Shack - no longer available

Mold: David Mos 22KT custom mold. The Lyman 225438 mold can also be used
* Mos Bullets - 42.4grs cast @ 730F using Bhn 15 alloy for this batch, lubed with Bullshop NASA lube
Mos Bullet Dimensions:
* OAL - 0.470
* Heel - 0.210
* Heel Width - 0.085
* Band Diameters - 0.221
Reload COAL - 1.00

Components Used to Make the Reloads:

Loading Tray: Scrap piece of Trex and a 1/4" Forstner drill bit
Drop Tube Placed in Charger Drop Tube: A 223 case cut off at the web

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1447.jpg

Bullet Lube Variables: NASA Lube - pan lubing, Graphite, Liquid Rooster Lube and Paraffin (dipped or pan lubed)

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1446.jpg

Powder Choices: Swiss Null-B, DuPont FFFFg sieved to 50 mesh and Swiss FFFFg. Will also try the 2010 KIK FFFg sieved to 40 mesh

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1445.jpg

Powder Charger: My 'el cheapo' Lee Perfect Powder Measure that will drop 4.5grs of powder more consistently than the other 4 chargers I have. Even better than a B&M. Powder setting of 4.5grs is dropped into a pan and weighed on the digital scale, accurate to 0.1gr. Then I just drop the powder without weighing into the cases which fills the case to the top of the lip using 223 cut case with the 22 case in it's mouth as an 'extended drop tube' so there is no powder spillage on the bench

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1449-1.jpg


Only 2 dies and a shell holder are needed to make a completed round:
* Lee Universal Expander Dies (small) is used to create the case bell before charging and seating the bullets
* CH4D 22LR Seating Die and Shellholder. The CH4D puts a nice factory crimp on the case. Currently, the CH4D die is not in current production. I talked with Mr Davidson @ CH4D and he anticipates to do a run of them in 4-6 months. Mine was from a small run that he made 5 years ago
Update: Talked with CH4D today. They are heat treating the dies now and will only be making 5 sets. Should be ready in a couple of weeks ... get your order in if you want one!
* Dies on a Lee 3 Hole Turret Press

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1452-1.jpg

And the rifles currently shooting the original gunpowder reloads, each with a vernier or peep sight

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1451.jpg

Might want to also visit the other 22 BP thread here on Cast Boolits ...
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=130946
Update thread

[6.5 mike]

Thanks John, this cleared up a couple of my questions. How does the Henry do with the BP loads?

[John Boy]

How does the Henry do with the BP loads?
Mike, don't know yet. I just fired a couple with the rifle so far

[Cannoneer]

Other than pulling the bullets out of smokeless .22 RF, how do you get empty, primed .22 RF cases?

[DeanWinchester]

This isn't my choice of games, but I will say, this is one of the coolest things I have ever seen.

Very impressive John Boy.

[Springfield]

I just called them and the lady said they will be back from heat treating in 3-4 Months, and will be 81.00. This sounds like something Lathesmith cold do faster and cheaper.

[1Shirt]

Interesting, but my question is WHY?
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[John Boy]

Other than pulling the bullets out of smokeless .22 RF, how do you get empty, primed .22 RF cases?

Cases: Empty Primed ArmsCor Cases purchased from the Hunting Shack - no longer available


Interesting, but my question is WHY?
Why not? Black powder 22 rim fire rounds have been off the market for decades with the advent of smokeless powder

[w30wcf]

John Boy,
Nice pics and good explanation. NEAT! :smile:

w30wcf

[tacklebury]

Very cool. 8)

[John Boy]

Here's an extra step I've added:
* A 225 H&I die, bullet nose down to tighten the factory crimp up so the rounds will chamber in the Henry better without hanging up. To keep the metplat from not being distorted, I put a spent LR primer filled with lead on top of the die plug. Any flat nosed top punch works

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1453.jpg

[John Boy]

HeyArnold - subsequent improvement. Try this to make the powder charging go faster:
* Put 50 cases spaced in a 100 Win 209 primer tray
* Set the powder charger to 4.5gr of powder (found that the Lyman #5 puts a perfect charge in every time). Charge each case while in the primer tray
* Crank the handler and the 50 cases are charged in a short time

Nice to hear you Stepped Back in Time and enjoy shooting the rounds. With 4.5gr of Swiss Null-B, the average velocity is 1130fps.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/e7b30360-3ba3-41f5-80b9-1bb9cf741094_zps6fb7eb51.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/e7b30360-3ba3-41f5-80b9-1bb9cf741094_zps6fb7eb51.jpg.html)
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1361.jpg
FIRST RANGE TEST
(http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1361.jpg.html)

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1343.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1343.jpg.html)

[Traffer]

Many here are aware that I have been reloading 22lr for the last year. Had no previous experience with reloading. No tools. Here is what I have come up with so far. The first picture contains a Remington and Winchester bullet along with my powder coated and metal cased bullets.
177532177533177534177535177536177537177538177539

[John Boy]

Very Nice Traffer. For the lowly 22LR;), don't you really like it when a plan comes together? :drinks:

[Traffer]

Thank You.
Yes it is very rewarding when a very difficult task is realized. I had no idea when I started that it would be this time consuming. I wish I could do better and faster work. I am hoping that the jacketed bullets will give me tight groups. Gonna test them later this week.

[Sawdust]

How do you make a blow tube?

[John Boy]

How do you make a blow tube?
* Drill out a case primer pocket in the base - caliber specific to the rifle
* Insert a length of plastic tubing the size of the hole drilled into the case
* To soften BP foul in the bore: insert the case with the tube into the chamber
BLOW: 5 deep breathes with high Relative Humidity - 10 to 12 deep breathes when the RH is low. Reason for using a case = moisture in the chamber of a rifle is a NO GO
Objective for the blow tube is to moisten the foul versa running a patch down the bore
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=OIP.M34f82b2f19ef4760136fb5a4d4f6169fo0&pid=15.1&rs=1&c=1&qlt=95&w=162&h=122#inline

[w30wcf]

"Nice to hear you Stepped Back in Time and enjoy shooting the rounds. With 4.5gr of Swiss Null-B, the average velocity is 980 fps."
John, I think that velocity was with the DuPont powder. In my rifle, 4.5 / Swiss Null B = 1,130 f.p.s.

Traffer,
Very interesting!:) A couple of questions if you don't mind.......
Are you using your collet to pull bullets from loaded .22 rounds before reloading with your bullets(?).
Are you using the powder from the factory .22's?

My dad was raised on a farm close to Shawano, WI. It is still in the family.

Thank you,
w30wcf

[nekshot]

I messed around with this years ago and must say it is fun and informative but lost interest after I got it working!

[John Boy]

John, I think that velocity was with the DuPont powder. In my rifle, 4.5 / Swiss Null B = 1,130 f.p.s.w30wcf ... thanks for reminding me. The Null-B reloads in my rifles are the 1130 fps also and the old DuPont are the 980 fps. I got a picture somewhere the night at the Ridgway indoor pistol range we tested groups for all the different powders used to reload the 22LR rounds.
Might add, the target I posted with the multiple rounds were shot with a dirty bore. No patching or tubing was done. The cotton ball patch picture indicates how well the bore cleaned up after all the rounds were shot

[Traffer]

The collet is a crimping die that I made from bolts. Even the collet itself. I don't pull bullets. These are all loaded from scratch. Empty casing add powder add bullet crimp case. The bullets are cast, swaged and powder coated. The jacketed bullets are 40 grain bullets originally made for a 22 Remington Jet Magnum. The base is cut and punched hollow and the diameter is rebated where the bullet goes into the case. The cases in these pictures are PRIMED ELEY CASES. THEY WERE LAST MADE IN THE EARLY 1980'S. These have been stored in food saver plastic bags and the primer is still good. I also reload old brass. Anneal, clean, resize. reprime and reload. None of the bullets that I make have any parts from new bullets. These cost between 1.5 and 3 cents per round to make. I have several recipes for primer. I also use toy roll caps for primer with fine aluminum powder mixed in for hotter, more firey spark. I have made my own dies. Including sizing dies, swaging dies and cutting/forming dies. w30wcf, you are very fortunate to still have the property in the Shawano area. It is a phenomenal area for hunting and fishing and trapping. Including Bear and Wolf. Big Deer and lots of them. Trout in the streams. Some of the best in the U.S.
Here are some pictures of the tools I use:177596 The little funnel I made from a 17 hmr casing.
177597Swaging die, top punch, and hollow base punch for semi-wad cutter boolits.
177598Here is a tool that I "discovered" rather than "made". Two identical matching files which I roll the boolit between to "knurl" the boolit. I only use this technique when I am not powder coating the boolits.
177599Knurled semi-wad cutter.
177600Powder coated wad cutters.
177601Powder dipper with interchangeable sized dipper. (made from plastic coat hanger and cotter pin and 22lr case.) The one in there now is 1.85 grain.
I guess it is time to start a thread about reloading 22lr instead of hijacking this one. I wish I was as professional as Jon Boy. My stuff is crude.

[Tracy]

This is a very interesting thread. I've wanted to reload .22 RF for awhile; now I'm getting ready to actually try it.

[w30wcf]

John Boy,
Thank you for the update. Historically speaking, 1,103 f.p.s. was the velocity shown in an early U.M.C. catalog for the .22 L.R. black powder cartridge, so we are in the ballpark with Swiss Null B.

Using SPG lube, the fouling from Swiss is not too much different than that of smokeless. That is, no doubt, why it is still shooting like this after 100 rounds......:drinks:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/22bpafter105rounds.jpg

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Traffer,
Thank you for the additional pics and information! Very innovative and interesting! :)
Please keep us updated on your progress.

I have worked with smokeless in reloading the .22 L.R. In case you might be interested, I'll send you a p.m. with my findings later today.

w30wcf

p.s. The farm is owned by one of my cousins. It's been a number of years since I last visited. I need to get back there one of these years. Years ago, one of my uncles harvested a very large buck which, at the time, I believe was in the top 10 bucks ever taken in Wisconsin.

[Traffer]

Jon Boy, Have you ever considered making those bullets hollow based? From my experience and reading, Hollow bases help stabilize the bullet in flight enabling better accuracy. I use a hollow base punch to form my bullets, BUT I used to simply cut a hollow base in with a drill bit. It is a lot easier than you may think.(I have been using a #2 drill bit) I sharpened a drill with a bullet shaped point and drill into a 3/8" bolt I drill about 85% or so into the bolt. Then drill the remainder with a smaller punch hole to pop the bullet out with when done. Polish the hole. Put the bullet in the hole and tap it lightly with an appropriate sized punch. Then take the drill bit and carefully run it into the base of the bullet the desired depth. This gives a well centered hollow base. If you would like to try this method I would be happy to provide you with any of these homemade tools free. These are some of my early attempts at cutting hollow bases. The second one is of the bolt that holds the bullet (drill on other end) for cutting the base.


177637
177638

[John Boy]

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/Ridgway%20Multi%20Powder%20Test_zpspbkxnfzf.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/Ridgway%20Multi%20Powder%20Test_zpspbkxnfzf.jpg.ht ml)

Test of Various Powders-10 Meter Target @ 25ft pistol range with Mos clone of UMC Bullet:
Rifle - Henry Yellowboy, vernier peep
A. 4.5 Swiss 4F, no lube front groove (shots 1 -10)= 1.06"
B. 4.5 Swiss 4F, lube front groove (shots 11 -20) = 1 1/8" (5 shots = 0.68")
C. 4.5 Swiss Null-B, No SPG Lube front groove) (shots 21- 30)= 0.81"
D. 4.2 Dupont 50 Mesh, Lube front groove (shots 31-40)= 1.87"
E. L225438, 4.5 DuPont 50 Mesh, Rooster Lube (7 shots = 0.5" with 3 shots in 1 ring)
Witness: w30wcf - John Kort

[John Boy]

Jon Boy, Have you ever considered making those bullets hollow based? From my experience and reading, Hollow bases help stabilize the bullet in flight enabling better accuracy.Traffer, no I have never considered it but I would like to try some for comparison with the UMC bases. I think it would be an interesting test. I'll even make up a box for w30wcf (John Kort). He is the eagle eye testing guru with his scoped Marlin.[smilie=s: And I Thank You for the tools offer. I'll send you a PM with my mailing address

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've got a large quantity of rather unusual Winchester-Western .22 rimfire cases which I bought on eBay for making bullet jackets, when it was easier to get them out of the US than it is now. The seller swore he would boil out the priming composition. But when I tried a few on a hot stove, they went off with a sharp crack. My trust in humanity would be improved by thinking the stuff had been fixed with something not water-soluble. The headstamp is modern, and I suppose they were intended for shotshells. There may well be some huge mine of them out there somewhere.

They are exactly an inch long, but of ordinary .22LR diameter, not WRM. I would be delighted if someone made a barrel blank of the right diameter for a non-heel, inside-lubed bullet. In fact I have always thought it is a great pity the .22 Winchester Rimfire (same diameter as the later WRM, but shorter) didn't become the standard .22 round. It was never as accurate as the .2LR, but with the same amount of development and investment I think it could have been better.

If I wasn't going to use handloaded rimfires in a repeating rifle, I believe I would make them without the crimp, which I think only came in when Stevens progressed to repeaters. I believe it is by far the easiest way for the amateur to build inaccuracy into these rounds.

[John Boy]

I've got a large quantity of rather unusual Winchester-Western .22 rimfire cases which I bought on eBay for making bullet jackets, when it was easier to get them out of the US than it is now. Do believe you are one very lucky reloader! Other than the primed cases that sold like lightning one time on the Hunting Shack -there are no more. Primed cases only are scarcer than hen's teeth! Having contacted 5 commercial reloaders for primed cases, standard answer - "Sorry, Legal Liability" I even talked with ArmsCor. Was told make an order for 500,000 and they'll be yours!

[GONRA]

GONRA (1/8 Scot) sugggests Ballistics in Scotland trim these to .22 Extra Long Rimfire specs
and consider himelf as a Really Lucky Fella!
Then make up a "new manufacture" olde rare caliber rifle, have phun shootin' etc.

[Traffer]

I just read your post about these 1 inch cases. There are several ways in which you could use them. You could trim them down considerably. Or you could use bullets with a very long rebated area that would seat nearly all the way down. I think that if the bullet oal was a little over an inch it would still chamber. Like 1.15" or so. If you want I can make you some very long rebated bullets and send them to you to try.


I've got a large quantity of rather unusual Winchester-Western .22 rimfire cases which I bought on eBay for making bullet jackets, when it was easier to get them out of the US than it is now. The seller swore he would boil out the priming composition. But when I tried a few on a hot stove, they went off with a sharp crack. My trust in humanity would be improved by thinking the stuff had been fixed with something not water-soluble. The headstamp is modern, and I suppose they were intended for shotshells. There may well be some huge mine of them out there somewhere.

They are exactly an inch long, but of ordinary .22LR diameter, not WRM. I would be delighted if someone made a barrel blank of the right diameter for a non-heel, inside-lubed bullet. In fact I have always thought it is a great pity the .22 Winchester Rimfire (same diameter as the later WRM, but shorter) didn't become the standard .22 round. It was never as accurate as the .2LR, but with the same amount of development and investment I think it could have been better.

If I wasn't going to use handloaded rimfires in a repeating rifle, I believe I would make them without the crimp, which I think only came in when Stevens progressed to repeaters. I believe it is by far the easiest way for the amateur to build inaccuracy into these rounds.

[longranger]

It's these kind of threads that make this forum alive and well,God Bless you all for your efforts.

[w30wcf]

John Boy,
Thank you for posting the target and notes. 50 feet was the actual distance. Hard to believe that was 4 years ago....

Guys,
Thank you for the additional info and positive comments!:) Before we got lucky with the primed cases from the Hunting Shack several years ago, I was removing bullets from .22 L.R. ammunition to get the cases. At that time this was my process for reloading those cases. I have since learned that 4.5 grs. of Swiss grouped better than 5 grs. and that Swiss Null B worked the best.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/22LRbploadingjpg.jpg

Because the .22 cast bullet I was using at the time had a .214" heel rather than the correct .210" heel, I seated them using a .228" H&I die in combination with a standard seating die in my reloading press.

Powder was dispensed through a .17 caliber funnel....
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/22LRpowderdispenserjpg.jpg

Since getting the proper Mos mold and the primed cases, I just use the .225" H&I die in combination with a seating die in my reloading press. I do chamfer the case mouths first.

w30wcf

[Traffer]

Oh wow again. I sent the PM before reading this. You do this process waaaay more professionally that I do. My stuff is all hack-made with dremels. No press or anything. I never knew that .210 was the correct diameter for the heel or rebate. I have settled on .209. I also have been reusing spent 22 cases from the range. There is a huge variance of diameters of these cases. I resize them to .225" That is really squeezing some of these guys. They get brittle from the stress. I have just discovered annealing. My last batch of cases are annealed but I haven't loaded any yet. Yes you can reuse cases. Obviously a lot more labor intensive than using primed factory cases. I have reloaded hundreds with old cases with success. I would be happy to share anything I have learned about reusing 22lr cases ...primer, resizing, cleaning, even getting the firing pin dents out (somewhat). Like I said very labor intensive but can be done.


John Boy,
Thank you for posting the target and notes. 50 feet was the actual distance. Hard to believe that was 4 years ago....

Guys,
Thank you for the additional info and positive comments!:) Before we got lucky with the primed cases from the Hunting Shack several years ago, I was removing bullets from .22 L.R. ammunition to get the cases. At that time this was my process for reloading those cases. I have since learned that 4.5 grs. of Swiss grouped better than 5 grs. and that Swiss Null B worked the best.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/22LRbploadingjpg.jpg

Because the .22 cast bullet I was using at the time had a .214" heel rather than the correct .210" heel, I seated them using a .228" H&I die in combination with a standard seating die in my reloading press.

Powder was dispensed through a .17 caliber funnel....
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/22LRpowderdispenserjpg.jpg

Since getting the proper Mos mold and the primed cases, I just use the .225" H&I die in combination with a seating die in my reloading press. I do chamfer the case mouths first.

w30wcf

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Do believe you are one very lucky reloader!

I'm glad I never had to put to the test whether I would have been a lucky reloader, if customs had detected the importation of live primers. I think I would have got away with it with a little fast talking, and production of the e-mails showing I thought the composition was to be removed. But I prefer not to find out.

An Extra Long would still be a custom chambering job, so it makes more sense, if I ever embark on such a project, to have a .22x1in. which nobody did before.

[w30wcf]

Traffer,
When I originally got into the reloading of b.p. .22's about 16 years ago I had some reloading tools and a mold on hand for the .22 Hornet for which I had been reloading with cast bullets since the late 1970's.

I did not make the tools. The "M" die expander was made by Lyman for the .22 Hornet and worked nicely to expand the crimped portion to accept the cast bullet. The H&I dies were also made by Lyman and I had used them to size/lube the cast bullets. Turns out they also worked very well to seat the bullet into the .22L.R. case.:)

You have the talent to make your own tools, whereas I do not. I was fortunate enough to have the tools on hand.....

w30wcf

[Lead pot]

If you guys ever find a place that has new primed .22 cases don't tell John Boy and w30wcf till you send your order in first :) I saw a post once that these two guys where pulling bullets to reload them with black powder so I told them just get 5000 of these primed cases and load them. I made a mistake and they beat me to what was left before I had a chance to re supply my 25 year old stock I had left in the coffee can LOL. They went to a good place with those two guys.

John, I found that 3F OE works best for me instead 4F Goex. It really shrunk the groups. I tested the black powder loads with some of the Wolf match. The black powder loads don't take the back seat with a lot of the factory .22 RF ammo.
Strange that my low wall shoots the black powder loads best with a fouled barrel then a clean one.
You can see starting at the lower target how large it is with a clean barrel then the second from the bottom as the fouling build up the group tightened and finally the third from the bottom put then all in contact. All of those groups are 5 shots at 50 yards shot off sand bags.
I shot a 100 yard egg match once using them and got beat out by one of those new 17 cal rim fire rifles.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1492.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1492.jpg.html)
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0531-1.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0531-1.jpg.html)

[Traffer]

Wow impressive shooting both the bullets and the shooter. I know how hard it is to get those cases. I think that last time they were available was the early 1980's so the stuff out there has been sitting around for a long time now. I happened to get my hands on a few Eley primed cases. I have used a few but will save the majority for whey I can start producing very consistent loads. I am a long way from that at this time. Been doing a lot of "eyeball comparison" instead of measuring and charting. Never had the patients for that finicky stuff. I like to be pioneering and making stuff from new ideas. The reloading process for me has been quite a development. Have totally changed my approach several times now. All requiring a new set of tools every time. Learning a lot but progress is slow. At this point my reloads are not as accurate or consistent as cheap factory ammo. I have gotten them to fire consistently (even with reprimed re-used brass from the range). And I can load them from very very slow (like a sling shot) to very very fast. My guess is that I have had some fly over 1500 or 1600fps. That cannot be sustained though. The cases can't handle it and neither can my gun.

If you guys ever find a place that has new primed .22 cases don't tell John Boy and w30wcf till you send your order in first :) I saw a post once that these two guys where pulling bullets to reload them with black powder so I told them just get 5000 of these primed cases and load them. I made a mistake and they beat me to what was left before I had a chance to re supply my 25 year old stock I had left in the coffee can LOL. They went to a good place with those two guys.

John, I found that 3F OE works best for me instead 4F Goex. It really shrunk the groups. I tested the black powder loads with some of the Wolf match. The black powder loads don't take the back seat with a lot of the factory .22 RF ammo.
Strange that my low wall shoots the black powder loads best with a fouled barrel then a clean one.
You can see starting at the lower target how large it is with a clean barrel then the second from the bottom as the fouling build up the group tightened and finally the third from the bottom put then all in contact. All of those groups are 5 shots at 50 yards shot off sand bags.
I shot a 100 yard egg match once using them and got beat out by one of those new 17 cal rim fire rifles.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1492.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1492.jpg.html)
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0531-1.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0531-1.jpg.html)

[John Boy]

I found that 3F OE works best for me instead 4F Goex
Lead Pot - here's why Olde E FFFg works best ... the grain ratio is near Swiss Null-B
Olde E FFFg:
10 mesh - Zero
20 mesh - 8.07% Hold
30 mesh - 44.72% Hold
40 mesh - 32.29% Hold
50 mesh - 13.66% Hold
60 mesh - 1.24% Hold
80 mesh - Trace passed

[Tracy]

Do believe you are one very lucky reloader! Other than the primed cases that sold like lightning one time on the Hunting Shack -there are no more. Primed cases only are scarcer than hen's teeth! Having contacted 5 commercial reloaders for primed cases, standard answer - "Sorry, Legal Liability" I even talked with ArmsCor. Was told make an order for 500,000 and they'll be yours!

That's not much if the price is right. Especially if we can get them in .22 WMR or WRF.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

.22WRF? I have looked on the face of God - for the right barrel or liner would be easy to get. I think the chances of getting half a million at anywhere near a reasonable cost would be much less, though. Your best chance would be with something that pops out of one of their machines ready made, and would normally go into their own next stage.

[Traffer]

There may be a way to sell/use those 500,000 cases. It would depend of course on the price. I have an idea of who may be able to use that many. I will PM you about it.


Do believe you are one very lucky reloader! Other than the primed cases that sold like lightning one time on the Hunting Shack -there are no more. Primed cases only are scarcer than hen's teeth! Having contacted 5 commercial reloaders for primed cases, standard answer - "Sorry, Legal Liability" I even talked with ArmsCor. Was told make an order for 500,000 and they'll be yours!

[Tracy]

.22WRF? I have looked on the face of God - for the right barrel or liner would be easy to get. I think the chances of getting half a million at anywhere near a reasonable cost would be much less, though. Your best chance would be with something that pops out of one of their machines ready made, and would normally go into their own next stage.

WMR, then. I know Armscor makes that, because I have some. WRF shares all dimensions except length with WMR, though.

[Chev. William]

Length can be Trimmed if the Case is Longer so 'WMR' Length is more 'Adaptable' Than Ordering the 'WRF' length directly.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

If you guys ever find a place that has new primed .22 cases don't tell John Boy and w30wcf till you send your order in first :) I saw a post once that these two guys where pulling bullets to reload them with black powder so I told them just get 5000 of these primed cases and load them. I made a mistake and they beat me to what was left before I had a chance to re supply my 25 year old stock I had left in the coffee can LOL. They went to a good place with those two guys.

John, I found that 3F OE works best for me instead 4F Goex. It really shrunk the groups. I tested the black powder loads with some of the Wolf match. The black powder loads don't take the back seat with a lot of the factory .22 RF ammo.
Strange that my low wall shoots the black powder loads best with a fouled barrel then a clean one.
You can see starting at the lower target how large it is with a clean barrel then the second from the bottom as the fouling build up the group tightened and finally the third from the bottom put then all in contact. All of those groups are 5 shots at 50 yards shot off sand bags.
I shot a 100 yard egg match once using them and got beat out by one of those new 17 cal rim fire rifles.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1492.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_1492.jpg.html)
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0531-1.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0531-1.jpg.html)
Lead Pot,
Excellent! I have also found that best accuracy comes after several rounds have been fired. I can't recall what bullet you are using(?) Is it the 225438?

A belated thank you for letting us know that you had some primed brass bought, I think, back in the 1980's-1990's(?). I did a search and found that The Hunting Shack had some. Fantastic! At that time I think they had 5 or 6 boxes of 5,000 left. I bought one and let the other fellows who had ordered the David Mos molds know.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Lead Pot - here's why Olde E FFFg works best ... the grain ratio is near Swiss Null-B
Olde E FFFg:
10 mesh - Zero
20 mesh - 8.07% Hold
30 mesh - 44.72% Hold
40 mesh - 32.29% Hold
50 mesh - 13.66% Hold
60 mesh - 1.24% Hold
80 mesh - Trace passed

John,
The partial container of Swiss Null B that I had given you....
50 Mesh - 100% pass through.....

w30wcf

[Lead pot]

Good grief John here I blamed you and John Boy for snatching them all up LOL

My mould is the Lyman 25438BV. But I should look at it to make sure. I used that mould for the .22 hornet also. If I'm wrong about it I will correct this post.

[w30wcf]

Lead Pot,
Thank you for the update. 225438 is a great bullet for the Hornet and was one of the first bullets I tried in the .22 L.R. It is working really well for you. :drinks:

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Thought I would post a pic of my .22 L.R. bullet seating setup.
The straight line seater is a Lyman .225 H&I die used in conjunction with a standard seating die in my RCBS press.

The seating die stem is adjusted to the point where the bullet is fully seated in the .22 L.R. case.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/22%20reloading.jpg

w30wcf

[Traffer]

Here are pictures of the die used for seating and final sizing after powder coating. It was adjustable but when I got it dialed in I put super glue on it so it wouldn't move. Then I messed up the top punch so now I need to either make a new perfectly lengthed top punch or burn the super glue out of the threads and reset it to the proper aol with a punch that is not necessarily the perfect length.
178730178731178732178733178734
First pic is the end of the die same as pic 4.
Second pic is the other end where the top punch goes. You may be able to see the top punch on pic 4 at the top right of the pic.
The last pic is the super duper professional hand squeeze 22lr press with the die in place to be pressed. lol
(Yes it is a Channel Lock or pump pliers)

[Lead pot]

I used a .22 hornet die for some time till I had a die set made for the rim fire. The Hormady dies used to have a guide sleeve for seating the bullet you can adjust down for the .22 LR and the .243 depriming stem with out the depriming pin would flair the case mouth. A cut down seating die would crimp the bullet.
The best setup is to get a die set for the .22 LR from CH-4-D and be done with it.
When I first started loading the .22 LR was when Herters had the proper dies.

[NavyVet1959]

So, for those of you who would like primed, empty .22LR cases, what would you consider a fair price for them (not including shipping)? I've been talking with a distributor of the .22 power loads (for the powder actuated nail guns and such) with respect to buying some of the various strength power loads. I've also mentioned to him that there might be a market for the ones with just the primer in them, but no powder. I'm not sure they will be that much cheaper since there really isn't that much powder in them. Assuming $12 per lb of powder and 2 gr of powder per cartridge, it would only be $0.34 less per 100 cartridges if you didn't include the powder in it. I have been quoted $2.67 per 100 round box in quantities of 50K.

[w30wcf]

Here are pictures of the die used for seating and final sizing after powder coating. It was adjustable but when I got it dialed in I put super glue on it so it wouldn't move. Then I messed up the top punch so now I need to either make a new perfectly lengthed top punch or burn the super glue out of the threads and reset it to the proper aol with a punch that is not necessarily the perfect length.
178730178731178732178733178734
First pic is the end of the die same as pic 4.
Second pic is the other end where the top punch goes. You may be able to see the top punch on pic 4 at the top right of the pic.
The last pic is the super duper professional hand squeeze 22lr press with the die in place to be pressed. lol
(Yes it is a Channel Lock or pump pliers)

Traffer,
Nice work! Innovative! :-D Since I don't have your talent, I need to use commercially available tools.......

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

So, for those of you who would like primed, empty .22LR cases, what would you consider a fair price for them (not including shipping)? I've been talking with a distributor of the .22 power loads (for the powder actuated nail guns and such) with respect to buying some of the various strength power loads. I've also mentioned to him that there might be a market for the ones with just the primer in them, but no powder. I'm not sure they will be that much cheaper since there really isn't that much powder in them. Assuming $12 per lb of powder and 2 gr of powder per cartridge, it would only be $0.34 less per 100 cartridges if you didn't include the powder in it. I have been quoted $2.67 per 100 round box in quantities of 50K.

2.67 per 100 would be .0267 ea which would be very good . :-D We paid about .020 ea. when the Hunting Shack had them several years ago.

w30wcf

[Traffer]

I looked through my empty rimfire brass. 22wmr is 1" long but is .011 wider. The fine shot 22lt are just under an inch. That is probably what these cases are meant for.I wish I had some to experiment with. They may be able to be loaded like those old Russian revolvers that have the case cover the bullet. In that method one would have to make the heel in a way that the skirt would be easiily expandable and long enough to spread out to the rifling to create a bond with the barrel. Like the old minie' ball. Would be a fun project. If you want I could make up a few slugs that I think might work that way and send them to you for you to load and test.


I've got a large quantity of rather unusual Winchester-Western .22 rimfire cases which I bought on eBay for making bullet jackets, when it was easier to get them out of the US than it is now. The seller swore he would boil out the priming composition. But when I tried a few on a hot stove, they went off with a sharp crack. My trust in humanity would be improved by thinking the stuff had been fixed with something not water-soluble. The headstamp is modern, and I suppose they were intended for shotshells. There may well be some huge mine of them out there somewhere.

They are exactly an inch long, but of ordinary .22LR diameter, not WRM. I would be delighted if someone made a barrel blank of the right diameter for a non-heel, inside-lubed bullet. In fact I have always thought it is a great pity the .22 Winchester Rimfire (same diameter as the later WRM, but shorter) didn't become the standard .22 round. It was never as accurate as the .2LR, but with the same amount of development and investment I think it could have been better.

If I wasn't going to use handloaded rimfires in a repeating rifle, I believe I would make them without the crimp, which I think only came in when Stevens progressed to repeaters. I believe it is by far the easiest way for the amateur to build inaccuracy into these rounds.

[Chev. William]

Traffer,
SAAMI and CIP list the Case Length for the .22WMR as 1.055" so your Measured length might be a little 'short'. but might be Manufacturer Variances.
Long Ago I bought some 'Grade 7' Nail Gun Loads and they Measured to match SAAMI .22SHOT Shell dimensions, which is what I had a Ruger Standard Auto chamber recut to fit.
I had a "Blank Firing Furnace" made from 1" Steel Bar to slide over and Bayonet Lock on the Ruger's Front Sight Base with a Solid 1/2" front drilled with Six .093" Holes near the Perimeter of the Inside Bore. I used a Washer with a coil spring to both seal the Muzzle gap and keep the 'Furnace' Tight on the Muzzle. overall the Furnace was about 6 inches long.
Firing those gave a Night flame about 12 to 16 inches long out the front, Strong recoil, a LOUD Report, and Solid Ejection of spent cartridges. I used this in Reserve Training Training Exercises for about four years. Then I was transferred to another Amphibious Reserve Unit; and kept the Pistol and furnace until I finally had the pistol reworked with a 6 inch Bull Barrel and Target Sights. it is still in my Shooting Safe.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Traffer]

Chev. William, That sounds like a really interesting piece of equipment you made. Wish I could see it being shot. Must have been very cool. About my measurment, sorry I was rounding to the nearest inch when I said 22WMR were 1". The measured size is 1.053"
The measured size of LR "Bird Shot: is .1.000" when the case is opened. So apparently the cases that Ballistics in Scotland has are for "bird shot".
The idea that I was trying to convey is the the bird shot 22lr primed cases could be loaded similarly to the Nagant Revolver Ammo with the bullet all the way in the case, as seen here:
178935
The 22lr needs to have a wider diameter than the inside of the case though. There are two ways to deal with this as far as I can see. One is to let just a bit of the 22lr slug in wad cutter form. stick out of the case with the diameter being the correct .240" to create a gas seal. The other way is to leave the entire bullet inside of the case, leave the bullet at .210" and make a "skirt" on the round similar to the skirt on a Minie' ball that would expand to fill the barrel after firing. I am pretty confident that both techniques would work. If Ballistics in Scotland would like to try either of these ideas, I would be happy to make up some of both kinds of bullets and ship them to him. Would love to hear about how they would work. In fact, I have some spent bird shot cartridges here. I think I will go ahead and do the experiment myself.
Here are pictures of a 22WMR case next to a 22 Bird Shot case:
178936178937178938178939

[Chev. William]

Traffer,
RE:"That sounds like a really interesting piece of equipment you made. Wish I could see it being shot. Must have been very cool."

Oh it Was! One time I was at a Public Pistol range with it and had the 'furnace' sitting on the Bench beside me while I was shooting the Ruger with .22LR ammo. Another Shooter noticed it and asked if he could try shooting my pistol with it fitted ( I think he thought it was a Silencer) so I loaded up a Magazine of the Grade 7 PTLs and fitted the 'furnace' to my Muzzle and offered him the chance.
It was fun seeing The Startled Look on his face when he touched the first round off and felt the recoil and heard the Report! He tried two more, then gave it back tome and walked back to his own station. a while later he came back and thanked me for the Opportunity.

Sadly, that pistol range has since been closed and 'redeveloped' into an Industrial site.
A company called "ARC Machines" is the occupant now.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Tracy]

2.67 per 100 would be .0267 ea which would be very good . :-D We paid about .020 ea. when the Hunting Shack had them several years ago.

w30wcf

Agreed; that's not a bad price at all. It's about what we currently pay for centerfire primers. I would buy 5,000 (maybe more) at that price.

[stac]

Here's an extra step I've added:
* A 225 H&I die, bullet nose down to tighten the factory crimp up so the rounds will chamber in the Henry better without hanging up. To keep the metplat from not being distorted, I put a spent LR primer filled with lead on top of the die plug. Any flat nosed top punch works

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1453.jpg

But is not dangerous?, (sorry for my bad english)

[philiphartwig]

Here's an extra step I've added:
* A 225 H&I die, bullet nose down to tighten the factory crimp up so the fitnessdonkey crazy bulk post (https://www.fitnessdonkey.com/legal-steroids/crazy-bulk-review) rounds will chamber in the Henry better without hanging up. To keep the metplat from not being distorted, I put a spent LR primer filled with lead on top of the die plug. Any flat nosed top punch works

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1453.jpg

I am getting better at making these reloads. Great tutorial!

[Traffer]

I am getting better at making these reloads. Great tutorial!

Have you chronoed any of your reloads? What kind of black powder do you use? Have you ever considered using home made black powder? I reload 22lr with smokeless and have the ingredients to make black powder. I am considering making some home made black powder 22lr loads. Any input is appreciated.

[Chev. William]

Long ago, I made some Home compounded Black Powder from Purchased 'Chemist' Powdered charcoal, Powdered Sulfer, and Fine Crystal Potassium Nitrate. I used Water to dampen the ingredients while thoroughly mixing them; then spread the mix out on an old cookie sheet to dry slowly and naturally.
After the Mixed material had dried out I broke it up and gently crushed the chunks to a coarse powder which i sifted with an old Flower sifter.
My resulting BP was a Mix of sizes but did Burn and did work in my cartridges.
i decided that it was much more work than I had time for then so began buying Commercial Black Powder for my reloading purposes since.

It was an interesting and Educational Experience for me.

Chev. William

[Blacksmith]

Primed .22 cases are available again (cross posted in What load for primed 22LR case thread):
https://fedarm.com/product-category/ammunition/22-lr/

[rodrigocirilo]

Someone has already considered using sealant instead of Crimp Die.

see this:https://www.assemblymag.com/articles/93875-ammunition-sealants-and-bullet-pull-strength?_ga=2.207093843.1922488098.1576506907-236896943.1575902047

Because of these variables, it is common to suppress the mouth crimp for match-grade or sniper-grade ammunition, since those cartridges are usually not fired with automatic weapons. Suppressing the mouth crimp reduces the complexity of the cartridge, avoiding potential issues associated with crimping. The goal is to produce an assembly with more consistent bullet pull strength.

[John Boy]

Post reactivate

[Bent Ramrod]

I made a little die and plunger seater for a 310 tool by chambering the blank die with a .22LR chambering reamer. I can squeeze the Ideal 225438 gas check shanks into the mouths of those brass-plated steel FedArm primed cases, and pop the completed round out with a tap on the plunger. (I’m afraid to use the extractor setup as I figure it will just pull the shell off the boolit.) They are in the cases tight enough so I can dip the boolits in my mutton tallow-beeswax lube and carry them in a discarded plastic .22 rimfire box with the holes in the plate.

No match-winning accuracy as yet, but an interesting exercise seeing what the shooters in the Good Old Days got to put up with.

[Dapaki]

I hesitate to post my progress since last time, I got flamed by the "Karens" waging their safety fingers at me. That said, I have had a lot of good luck loading steel primed casings labeled OS or SO with 55gr LEE boolits, lubed with 45:45:10.

Here is one standing next to a commercial round for comparison. The case has been turned to shorten to .45" and crimped with a modified .223 factory crimp die.
264341

[hrt4me]

Interesting, but my question is WHY?
1Shirt!:coffeecom

I would need these so I can fire my original Colt 1871 Open Top Pocket Model Revolver