Take Me Back to the Basics

[x101airborne]

Every once in a while, it is good to go back to the basics when you have a problem. It for sure is not always the equipment's fault. I am having one of those problems. I got some new molds in this week and they are beautiful. Problem is with my alloy or my technique. Trying to cast some 503-400 gc hp's and I cannnot seem to get a decent fill out. I have cleaned the mold several times, my temp is725, mold is heated on a hotplate, tin content is around 3% mixed with 75% range scrap and 25% WW. Noses are not formed correctly, bands do not fill out and the gas checks will slide off the bases easily. No, I did not measure them with all the other problems that I am having. It is OBVIOUS that the alloy is not filling out. I even tried to get the mold around 450 by IR thermometer then letting it cool to make good boolits. I have tried to pour on the rim of the sprue plate, directly into the mold, and with the mold canted in various combinations and just cannot seem to make a good boolit. So, take me back to last year when I got my first mold an I will listen to all ideas, suggestions, criticisms, etc.

[leftiye]

Try running the mold up hot enough to frost heavily. Then lower it slowly through many casts until it just lightly frosts (borders on trying to be shiny). This should solve temp problems with fillout.

Possibly use the hot plate as a mold heater as part of the casting routine. Fill, drop, put on heater, inspect, repeat. Maybe. Put a trivet on top of the heater. Put a 1/2 gal can with one side cut out over the trivet (to keep temps uniform and heat the top of the mold too).

It could be that the mold is still seasoning. That will be over eventually. It could be that your lead has impurities in it, = one possibility.

[geargnasher]

Sounds to me like you have there is another classic case of the mould is too cold, sprue plate is too cold, and HP spud is too cold.

Cast faster, four pours a minute minimum, until they start to fill. Try filling the mould quickly, if you drizzle lead in there too slowly the base will be rounded no matter what you do. If you have a ladle, try that, but it's a bear to ladle a HP mould fast enough to keep it hot enough to work.

Gear

[x101airborne]

Thanks, guys. I know the molds are up to the task, but not sure if I am. I tried heating them up WAAY over operating temp, and it did give me filled out boolits that were heavily galvanized. I wonder if the metal clips that hold the hollow point fixture in place may be heat sinking the heat out? I just cant figure it out. or maybe I am not quite smart enough? LOL.

[geargnasher]

It takes a while to get the whole mould heat-soaked enough to "plane out" the casting rhythm. Try making one of these to sit on your hotplate, let the mould soak for 20 minutes or more, then pull it out and get busy casting, never slack off unless you park the mould back in the oven, it only takes a few seconds for the mould temperature to drop below that which is optimum for HP casting:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e5ad65ae2e31.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1966)

I'm going to be in Victoria weekend after next, if you'll invite me over I'll see if I can spare a couple of hours to help sort it out.

Gear

[canyon-ghost]

They're right, forget shiny chrome-like boolits! Heat the alloy and mold to frosted and pour like a house afire! Pour a lot, until the fillout gets where you want. Then, reduce the temp, if you lose fillout, turn the heat back up. The hollowpoint pin usually only gets too cold, it's such a small percent of the alloy in the boolit.

[Sonnypie]

I like eliminating one big variable, the alloy.
How about getting some alloy you can be sure is right and trying that? You don't need a ton, just enough so you have a reference to try out that is a known alloy.
Sounds to me like you have a Hodge-Podge alloy. Work with an alloy you know is true.
That's why my rifle boolits are cast from Rotometals Lyman #2 alloy. (http://www.rotometals.com/Bullet-Casting-Alloys-s/5.htm)
For my pistol boolits I use new Magnum Shot with a slither of Lead-Free solder for tin. (24" of 1/8") I buy it locally at a trap range.

Although I don't cast huge boolits like it sounds like you do, my ingots are even purdy.
And marked with stamping letters, Like L2 (Lyman #2), SA (shot alloy), and my huge stash of WW (Wheel Weights, 4.6 pounds)
The wheel weights are whatever crud was in a local brake shops small bucket.

So when having troubles, start with a known alloy.
You wouldn't make Escargot from garden snails, right? :bigsmyl2:

[williamwaco]

Listen to Geargnasher. He is correct.

I don't like to spend money on equipment so I do it a little differently.
I would cast fast. Hollow points really need the mold heat to be perfect;

Cast as fast as you can without being reckless, I expect with hollow points that might be about three bullets per minute. Don't worry about these bullets. Dump them in you sprue bucket. Don't even take the time to look at them. After eight to ten fillings the mold will be hot enough that the sprue will remain completelty liquid for several seconds. When you reach this point, keep going. When you get it hot enough that after five seconds you can tilt the mold sideways and the sprue is still liquid enough to pour off like water you are hot enough, - too hot - .

At this point slow down. Don't dump the bullet until the sprue is hard enough to ring like a bell when you strike it with the bottom of a steel spoon. At this point, dump the bullets on your drop pad and check them out. In the beginning this might take as long as 15 to 30 seconds.

At this point the bullets may be so severely frosted that they are still unfilled. Continue to cast slower and slower until the frosting goes away. At this point the temperature should be perfectly balanced.

Side Note:
I don't find the alloy temperature to be as important as the mold temprature, I try to keep the alloy between 700 and 850 degrees

[geargnasher]

Alloy temperature means nothing to boolit quality directly, mould temprature means everything.

Indirectly, boolit quality can be drastically affected by alloy temperature, because at temperatures approaching 750 and above, the oxide barrier that tin creates on a molten lead stream is totally nullified, plus tin will depart from the alloy in the pot at high temps due to its extremely high oxidation rate. This oxide barrier to the molten stream is what reduces the apparent "surface tension" of the alloy and allows it to pour better, more completely filled boolits. This is the main reason we add tin in the first place, better fillout. So why destroy that effect with too much heat?

I still maintain that the best policy on alloy temperature was established long ago and reiterated in the Lyman casting manuals: Keep the alloy at about 100 degrees above full-liquidus, which will always keep you below the point that would be harmful to any given alloy.

Gear

[tonyjones]

Could it be that your alloy contains more tin than antimony?

Regards,

Tony

[geargnasher]

Overtinned alloy can cause splotchy boolits and tiny nodules of pure tin on the surface that show up in the barrel later, but hasn't in my experience affected fillout quality.

Gear

[x101airborne]

Thanks, guys. I will try heat soaking my mold for a while and see if that helps. I dont have any rotometals alloy, so that will have to wait. I have used this alloy ever since I started casting and have never had a problem, well, till now. I will watch my alloy melt and use the 100 degrees over thing. I am sure this is a "well, duh" problem. I just need to take a breath, grab my hair, pull my head out, and go again.

[Calamity Jake]

Venting, venting check the venting.

[44man]

Here I come again! ;-)
No alloy, NONE, zero, has ever baffled me. I heat my molds in the little oven to 500* and the first boolit will be perfect.
Now just what could the problem be????? OH, I see, BOTTOM POUR! :kidding:
My ladle will be buried with me. So will all the bottom pour spout plugs! :brokenima

[x101airborne]

I dropped my ladle a couple months ago and it cracked, so I am ladle-less.

Went out this morning and fired up the hotplate before I started the lead pot. Gave my mold at least 20 minutes of heat and found out my lyman lead thermometer is broken. Found out by checking the top of the lead with an IR thermometer. Got my temp set correctly this time and started casting as fast as I could. The boolits are better, but still not quite right. Small inconsistencies in band fill out and nose forming. I think I am still losing a lot of heat through the hollow point pins though.

[geargnasher]

Pictures of boolits please??

Gear

[44man]

I dropped my ladle a couple months ago and it cracked, so I am ladle-less.

Went out this morning and fired up the hotplate before I started the lead pot. Gave my mold at least 20 minutes of heat and found out my lyman lead thermometer is broken. Found out by checking the top of the lead with an IR thermometer. Got my temp set correctly this time and started casting as fast as I could. The boolits are better, but still not quite right. Small inconsistencies in band fill out and nose forming. I think I am still losing a lot of heat through the hollow point pins though.
Oh my, that would be a disaster for me too.
I have been casting something for over 64 years with a ladle. I cast my own sinkers when a kid, then jigs, even made my own jig molds by hand. Boolits came easy for me. I think my Lyman ladle is as old as they day it was first made. :mrgreen: I have a nice RCBS but still go with the old Lyman.
I used to put my pot on the kitchen stove! I still have that cast iron pot too. Not sure but I think my Lyman furnace is from 1961, or 1956, not sure. It has failed twice, thermostats and is gone again. I like the Lee 20# pots. My friends have Lyman and RCBS but none work good. Some do not get hot enough and cycle times are too long, I have seen lead start to freeze while casting. Not fun to put the ladle in the pot to hear a "clunk." Some are so bad a campfire is the way to cast! [smilie=1:
In all the years, I have never been able to bottom pour a good boolit plus it just takes more work and time to keep it going.
I bought a lead thermometer because when I alloy antimony I need to hold 600*. I have never used it to cast.
With all of the problems posted all the time, I have to wonder if it is the expensive furnaces causing the problems. Is the lead hot, cold, hot, cold?

[SSGOldfart]

Here I come again! ;-)
No alloy, NONE, zero, has ever baffled me. I heat my molds in the little oven to 500* and the first boolit will be perfect.
Now just what could the problem be????? OH, I see, BOTTOM POUR! :kidding:
My ladle will be buried with me. So will all the bottom pour spout plugs! :brokenima

Are you bottom pouring????:shock::shock:
change your head pressure? put less lead in the pot[smilie=s::veryconfu:veryconfu
lots of good ideals in this thread,hope one has helped you
give us a update what worked for you????????????????????????????????????????

[1Shirt]

It is good, very good in fact to periodicaly go back to basics. The best way is to do a review of old loading manuals, and to review stickys on this forum. It is real easy to become complacent, feel that you know it all, or have forgotten more than most know about the subject. That is when you make mistakes! Think any of us who are old in this casting/reloading game who are honest will admit to periods of complacency. Results of being complicant can result in injuriy, blown up or in some way screwed up fire arm, and at best can damage our egos.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[44man]

Are you bottom pouring????:shock::shock:
change your head pressure? put less lead in the pot[smilie=s::veryconfu:veryconfu
lots of good ideals in this thread,hope one has helped you
give us a update what worked for you????????????????????????????????????????
NEVER, I was born with a lead ladle! :mrgreen: It is how to cast. :drinks:

[runfiverun]

i'd just use a ladle.

[snuffy]

I got some new molds in this week and they are beautiful. Problem is with my alloy or my technique. Trying to cast some 503-400 gc hp's and I cannot seem to get a decent fill out. I have cleaned the mold several times,

A couple of questions. What make are the molds? And just how did you clean the molds? Single cavity? My method of cleaning any new mold is to submerg it in boiling water with a big squirt of dish soap. Let it boil for at least ten minutes, then brush the entire mold with a tooth brush. Rinse in hot water, the mold will dry itself.


I wonder if the metal clips that hold the hollow point fixture in place may be heat sinking the heat out?

Metal clips? Not familiar with HP pins with a fixture, we need pics! We also need a smilie that says; "this thread is worthless without pictures"

You want to go back to the basics, we need all of the basic info, type of mold and pics of the mold(s) and the boolits.

[x101airborne]

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back with yall. Deer season and all. These are NOE RG-2 molds. I think the problem was that my bottom pour pot does not fill the cavaties fast enough to prevent the lead from cooling before the hollow point lip cooled. I first changed over to my fish cooker pot setup and tried using my smelting ladle. keeping the lead at 700 - 725, I tried to let my mold on the edge of the burner frame allowing it to heat up with the lead. Once hot, I was able to make good boolits for a while, then it seemed the bottom of the mold got cold while the steel sprue plate kept hot. The more I poured, the cooler the hollow point portion got and after about 12 boolits, I would have to stop and put the mold back on the edge of the burner to get good boolits again. I just dont get it.

I am sure that there is nothing wrong with the molds, only my skill-set. These are NOE 503-450pb and NOE 503-500gc RG-2's. While I have started getting decent boolits, I think they could be better.

[x101airborne]

Well, I thought I had it fixed.......http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_155754ec16dcb93f55.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2698)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_155754ec16deaec54f.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2699)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_155754ec16e0b3d05b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2700)

[x101airborne]

I dont get it.... unless the mold is insanely hot, the lips dont fill out. I have great base and band fill out and love the size of these hollow points..... but what a bear! My vent lines are deep and clean and i even get some light flashing sometimes. The only other thing I can think of to do is to fill the mold by dipping the thing in the lead pot. But that wont work either.

[geargnasher]

The combination of a VERY heavy boolit, large HP cavity, and the fact that it's a HP boolit to begin with are all working against you. I pour a lot of 500+ grain boolits for 45/90 and have to get the mould very, very hot and cast fast for good band fillout with my bottom-pour. For boolis over 400 grains I generally switch to the ladle. Problem is, tough to ladle HP boolits well, but if your mould is a Cramer style you can ladle much faster without having to employ your third hand to operate the spud. I'll bring my rowel ladle this weekend, we'll see if that doesn't help.

Gear

[leftiye]

You have to heat the pins between casts by setting them on a hot piece of steel (better still aluminum). Go back to the mold heaters at the first of the thread. Put a plate with a slot in it (so that the hollow point pins can go in the slot while the bottom of the mold sits flush against the plate) on top of a hot plate, and also use a cover. The aluminum plate (1/2 in. thick is good) stores the heat from the hotplate, and quickly dumps it into the mold when the mold is replaced in the mols heater. This way the bottom of the mold gets heated, and since the mold is closed and the pins are in contact with the mold blocks, they get heated too. With a variable temp hotplate, you can cast 37 grain 22 cal. bullets in a 2in. by 1 3/4 in. by 1 3/4 in set of blocks. Without the mold heater this is just about impossible. Throw a cast, knock the boolits out, put the mold back on the heater, inspect the bullets, throw the next cast and so on.

[x101airborne]

Thanks Gear, Leftiye. That is what i was noticing. I have never casted hollow points this large till now. Just frustrating to have around a 60% reject rate.