RCBS Rockchuckers having Red Chinese castings? [Archive]

Naphtali

11-01-2011, 05:56 PM

As stated, RCBS maintains that their castings are made in the USA, and always have been. Also as stated, RCBS backs their equipment for life. That's the life of the equipment, not yours. I've called them for parts for a machine I bought on ebay, and they shipped them free, even after I told them I wasn't the original owner.

They also replaced a Rockchucker press that I had bought used back in the early 1980's. The pivot pins had finally frozen up inside the casting, and I couldn't free them up. When I called them to see how to repair it, they had me send the press to them and in just a little over a week, I had a brand new press on my front porch.

There is no worry about purchasing RCBS equipment.

Hope this helps.

FredWhile I did buy a Lee cast iron "O" press - an exceptionally well-made machine regardless of price - your reply tells me precisely what I want to know.

Many thanks.

jcwit

11-01-2011, 06:24 PM

They won't furnish the information because the castings are still coming from China.

Can you substantiate this statement![smilie=1:

Kevin Rohrer

11-01-2011, 06:28 PM

I read the same Handloader article. It quoted a company official who said the castings are made in China (and showed a crate of them) and said the machining is done here.

Char-Gar

11-01-2011, 07:36 PM

Yes, that is what it said and I suspect it was the truth. It caused quite a backlash and RCBS began to deny and back and fill. You will note I said.."RCBS said that was wrong." If the casting ever did come from China, RCBS quit that as soon as it came to light. I have wondered what happend to that RCBS employee who made that statment that appeared
in print.

jcwit

11-01-2011, 07:38 PM

He's working for Smart Reloader!

KohlerK91

11-01-2011, 07:57 PM

Everything is being outsourced........Just got a brand new DO ALL band saw and you think it made in the USA.......not 100%.....they even left the cheesy little "made in china" stickers on some of the parts!!!!!!!!!! RCBS and any other company will do the same thing just to improve the bottom line

jcwit

11-01-2011, 08:05 PM

Can anyone imagine the EPA regs regarding casting metals, other than lead at this point in time anyway.

1hole

11-01-2011, 10:14 PM

".....they even left the cheesy little "made in china" stickers on some of the parts!!!!!!!"

Federal law says they had better place and leave those labels.

If you think all Chinese stuff is 'cheezy' don't look at the 'Made in' labels on your electric scales, reloading branded digital powder dumpsters - caliper - micrometer, cell or cordless telephone, computer, modem, router, TV, small kitchen appliances, hand tools, electric power tools, etc. Or the castings for RCBS presses.

mtgrs737

11-01-2011, 11:08 PM

Outsourcing from other countries and stabbing American workers in the back has been going on for some time now it is the "Dark side" of capitalism. It was enhanced by NAFDA and The GATT agreements signed into law back in the first Bush administration. Like Ross Perot said you will be able to hear the sucking sound of jobs leaving America if we let them get away with this. The constructors of the Consitution knew what they were doing by enacting tariffs on cheap imported goods, we have let them down and ourselves by allowing it to be circumvented. Just how long after America is totaly bankrupt and starving will the masses wake up?

I have owned a RCBS Rockchucker press for 40 years and I think it is a great press. I like and buy current RCBS products but if I were looking for a new single stage press I would buy a Redding Big Boss II press due to tighter tolerances. Just do a hands on comparison and you will see what I am talking about.

Brithunter

11-02-2011, 05:37 AM

I don't know how old my RCBS Rockchucker is as I brought it used from an estate sale about 12 years ago, I also brought a Uniflow. Now the Uniflow needs a new handle part as it's about to fall apart. One day I'll send it back.

In the mean time I mislaid my RCBS case champher/deburrign tool so went to get a new one. Not only was the new one terribly expensive but to be frank it was rubbish. Really cheaply made and coverd in what looked like black paint. I would not have paid one quarter of the asking price for this rubbish so returned home without one.. Spent several hours turning the place upside down and found my original one :-)

It's obvious that RCBS quality is going downhill............................. very sad.

Houndog

11-02-2011, 06:15 AM

jcwit

11-02-2011, 08:06 AM

Looks like they all run $15 to $25 bucks today.

Char-Gar

11-02-2011, 11:13 AM

Well, I am using a cast steel RCBS A2 made in the mid-1950's, so I know it is American made. This 55 year old press, is just as good as new. They don't wear out or break. When you can find them used they are not cheap, going from $150.00 to $225.00.

If a fellow wants a brute strong lifetime single stage press that can't be broken, then hunt one up.

P.S. The A2 had a bushing in the top that could be removed to use those big shotshell dies. The production date is on top of the press under this bushing. Toward the end of production RCBS went to cast iron instead of cast steel and eliminated the bushing. So, if you shop for an A@ get one with the bushing, it will be steel instead of iron.

mtgrs737

11-02-2011, 11:39 AM

+1 on the older RCBS presses, I wouldn't take a new price for mine, they don't wear out if kept oiled and clean. I have had several dealings with RCBS and find them to be more than fair, often replacing parts that I screwed up for free. I will always consider them for my needs.

The older Rockchuckers do come up here in the selling and swaping area and Ebay from time to time so those looking for one keep an eye out.

PB234

11-02-2011, 11:43 AM

Buy stuff made in China. Save a couple bucks. Put an American out of a job. Want a country for your children? Buy American and spend a few extra dollars. You will miss the extra dollars a lot less than your children will miss what we once were.

Your shirt, pants, shoes, underwear made here? Your computer, pen, desk, phone? Oil in your car made here? Money to pay our armed forces borrowed from China except they are getting tired of lending us money. 14% of US citizens on food stamps.

Change starts with us on an individual level. We sent the jobs overseas looking to save a few cents at Wal Mart buying Chinese junk as much as the bosses trying to make another dollar. Problem is that the Chinese are now moving into things that are not junk and we get even weaker.

Ickisrulz

11-02-2011, 11:47 AM

I e-mailed RCBS a couple years ago telling them many reloaders were put off by their Chinese presses and they'd do well to make stuff in the USA and charged a little more. The reply I got said their presses are indeed fully made here.

GLL

11-02-2011, 01:23 PM

Can someone reference the Handloader article with the photo of the crate of Chinese castings? I have looked through my old issues and cannot find it yet. I have three of the old A2's and would love to see them back in production !

Jerry

Char-Gar

11-03-2011, 12:37 PM

Terry Murback one told me, that he had spoken with the RCBS folks and they stated they would have to price the A2 at $700.00 to make a profit these days. There would be zero demand for a single stage press in that price range.

leadhead

11-03-2011, 04:39 PM

Name me one computer that is not made in china?
Denny

Casting_40S&W

11-03-2011, 04:53 PM

Buy American Made Tools, keep jobs in America, thats why I buy Lee Precision Products. Their products are designed, cast, machined, assembled and packaged in America and they stand behind their product. Heck, even my jeans are Lee.

jspurgeon

11-03-2011, 10:19 PM

GLL, the article was in August of 2006. The article is called "A tour of RCBS", written by John Haviland.

dillonhelp

11-04-2011, 11:54 AM

GLL

11-04-2011, 06:06 PM

jspurgeon:

Welcome to the Forum ! :)

Thank very you much for the reference!

Jerry

Idaho Sharpshooter

11-05-2011, 01:31 AM

milprileb

11-05-2011, 08:01 AM

Any one know where Dillon gets its castings made? Is Dillon pure USA or
made in Mexico ?

Lets not start a rumor, this is only a question.

lead-1

11-05-2011, 08:25 AM

Any one know where Dillon gets its castings made? Is Dillon pure USA or
made in Mexico ?

Lets not start a rumor, this is only a question.

There is a good chance your answer is three posts above yours and kudos to Dillonhelp for sticking up for the competition, could have not said anything and let people believe that the castings are still made overseas.

silverbuzzard

11-05-2011, 09:37 AM

I try to buy everything american .
Abc news has been running a show about building a house with all american made materials, it is a real eye opener. Only added 1% to the house !!!
Nails for instance. Only nails made in us come from an illinois company[maize nails] they went to their factory. Had about 20 employees.
The owner said that if just 5% more houses built in u.s. Used their nails, they would hire 15 employees to handle the business
this puts it in clear terms , buy american

UNIQUEDOT

11-05-2011, 10:53 AM

To the best of my knowledge, RCBS had discontinued having castings made in China shortly after they started. I am confident that all of their reloading machines, like ours, are completely made in America.

How would one know? furthermore how could one trust rcbs when they are flat out lying to their customers by claiming that they never were cast in China? at least with Lee's classic cast press (which is the press that sent rcbs to China in the first place) it has CAST IN U.S.A. right on one side of the frame. Then again if there is any connection with the Chinese and the classic cast press it's possibly made with railroad tracks laid by Chinese slaves in the 1800's. BTW Lee's website no longer references RCBS and China, but they changed their entire website a few months ago.

UNIQUEDOT

11-05-2011, 11:31 AM

a lot of symantic trickeration occurs these days. There are about five basic definitions of "Made".

Unless the ore was:
1. mined here
2. smelted here
3. poured into raw castings here
4. machined here
AND
5. assembled here by American born workers

It is not truly 100% American Made.

Too many companies get 3 or 4 of the above and yet claim "American Made."

BTW; unmachined castings do not have to have the Made In USA stamp or tag.

Rich

The problem with all this is that we sell our metals to China and then buy them back at a much higher cost. You are correct that unmachined castings do not have to have the country of manufacture on them, but until recently it was required that if products had foreign parts, and U.S.A. was to be stamped on them that it state "Made in U.S.A. of foreign and domestic parts". Now that China owns the U.S.A. most of the stuff coming from there does not even have a made in China stamp.

Naphtali

11-05-2011, 12:32 PM

To return to my question: How to identify the Red Chinese Rockchuckers?

UNIQUEDOT

11-05-2011, 12:54 PM

To return to my question: How to identify the Red Chinese Rockchuckers?

You probably can't identify them as they were not stamped so as to deceive the customer. They probably come from the same mold whether they are still poured in China or whether they are poured in America from the iron they import from China.

Pigslayer

11-06-2011, 10:24 AM

Not to hijack this thread, but if you want a QUALITY deburing tool, look to L.E. Wilson or Redding.

Get one from Lee. Works as well as any other.[smilie=1:

omgb

11-06-2011, 01:22 PM

I really think that unless absolute and catagorically undeniable evidence verifies that RCBS is outsourcing castings to the ChiComs we should refrain from repeating it. Right now RCBS is a first rate American business. I'd hate to see rumor run them into the ground.

My Rockchucker is from the 80s. I use it for all sorts of stuff and whenever I've had a broken part or decapping pin or.....RCBS has replaed it free and right away. I would say the RCBS, Hornady and Dillon all understand customer service. Now if some of the others would just step up to the plate....

dominicfortune00

11-06-2011, 01:35 PM

To return to my question: How to identify the Red Chinese Rockchuckers?

I'll look at mine when I'm home next week and post how to tell if it was made in China.

Because mine was made in China and it states it somewhere, either on the press or the box it came in, I don't remember which.

UNIQUEDOT

11-06-2011, 06:35 PM

My Rockchucker is from the 80s. I use it for all sorts of stuff and whenever I've had a broken part or decapping pin or.....RCBS has replaed it free and right away. I would say the RCBS, Hornady and Dillon all understand customer service. Now if some of the others would just step up to the plate....

No doubt that rcbs has excellent CS when it comes to defective or broken parts as does Dillon, but Lyman is the only company that i have received poor customer service from. This of course was a couple of decades ago and things may have changed. I do admit that i have more Lyman stuff on my bench than i do rcbs though.

I have heard that Hornady leaves their customers hanging when it comes to discontinued stuff, but no personal experience with them except defective bullets which they promptly replaced. Lee precisions customer service is top notch nowadays as well. My beef with rcbs is the fact that they have lied about castings coming from China and it has nothing to do with quality.

Arnie

11-06-2011, 09:54 PM

Speaking of Hornady.I bought 200 45/70 cases from Grafs and they were real short .Should have been 2.100 long and they were 2.035 long .I finally got hold of some one by email at Hornady and they had me call a number to speak with there tech dept . I have sent them back and so far the only thing i have heard is that they recieved the package .He said on the phone that he thought some one screwed up and trimmed the bulk brass to the Leverelution dimensions . I have also bought empty leverlution 45/70 brass on ebay and those cases are short and were made they way on poupose but they are also very thin walled like Winchester brass and this bulk brass was heavy like Remington brass . If they load that heavier brass with the same smokeless powder as they do the thinner stuff they will have pressure problems ? Arnie

omgb

11-07-2011, 12:03 AM

Never email Hornady, always call. You get instant responses. As to the thin brass, it'll take the pressure but it won't last through as many loadings.

Sonnypie

11-08-2011, 12:50 AM

My 1980's vintage RCBS has a Chevy 235 CID 6 cylinder engine number stamped in the cast iron.... :shock: :oops:

And it's green, not red. :rolleyes:

:kidding:

dillonhelp

11-09-2011, 12:46 PM

All Dillon castings are poured in the USA. All machining, powder-coating, carbide casting and polishing, etc are done in the USA. No idea where the metal comes from; I don't believe any aluminum (bauxite) is mined in the US. Zinc and iron are, but we don't track where the raw metal comes from, only the consistancy of the alloy itself. Our parts are injection-molded, not sandcast, except for the iron castings on the Super 1050 and 50BMG loaders.

omgb

11-09-2011, 02:13 PM

Guys, do we really want to pick apart companies like RCBS, Hornady, Lee, Dillon, Bonanza, Redding or any other of the leading reloading companies? The amount of Chicom stuff in our stores is mind boggleing. Price does make a difference to some guys, hence the wide support for Lee products. Others, less price sensitive prefer a higher degree of finish and a certain amount of over-engineering and are willing to pay for it. Manufacturers are very sensitive to this and sometimes will go over seas for basic manufacturing steps such as castings in an effort to maintain quality while still hitting the right "price point". You do know that Ford, GM and Chrysler all farm out manufacturing to Mexico and other places right? It has been a common practice for years dating back to the late 60s with some automakers.

All of this has been in direct response to cost challenges. Niether China nor Mexico have much in the way of invironmental restrictions. Just think of what a casting or plating company discharges on a daily basis. To do it clean and green costs $$$$$ and those costs are passed on to the consumer.

No doubt, one of the reasons Dillon products cost as much as they do is that they are all USA made and they have such a cradle to grave warranty. All of that has to be paid by somebody and in this case, it's you and I.

I believe all of these companies are trying to find the right way to keep costs down and quality up. If one fails to do both, you go the way of Herters, Lachmiller or gulp.....Remarlin.

If RCBS tells me they don't farm out their castings to China I will tend to believe them. They make good stuff that's affordable and they stand by it. That's all I ask.

If you really feel strongly about buying only American, then ask the companies directly and specifically where their stuff is made. Dillon has spoken up in a previous post. RCBS has commented recently too. Lee tells us up front in every ad. I fail to see any attempt to cover up outsourcing here. So, that's my $.02.
R Talley

UNIQUEDOT

11-09-2011, 02:26 PM

No idea where the metal comes from.

Earth! mined by earthlings for earthlings. :mrgreen::

UNIQUEDOT

11-09-2011, 02:52 PM

Guys, do we really want to pick apart companies like RCBS

No, not really. Their stuff is of the highest quality regardless of where it originates, but then again honesty is essential.

You do know that Ford, GM and Chrysler all farm out manufacturing to Mexico and other places right? It has been a common practice for years dating back to the late 60s with some automakers.

of course, afterall there is a sticker on every part manufactured abroad.

All of this has been in direct response to cost challenges. Niether China nor Mexico have much in the way of invironmental restrictions. Just think of what a casting or plating company discharges on a daily basis. To do it clean and green costs $$$$$ and those costs are passed on to the consumer.

Is it better that there is a consumer... someone whom gets up in the morning , goes to work, earns a decent green wage and can afford to buy what he pleases? if the stuff is made in China or Mexico the Americans that have no job due to the fact cannot consume anything and therefore the economy suffers for all.

I believe all of these companies are trying to find the right way to keep costs down and quality up. If one fails to do both, you go the way of Herters.

I don't know about the others, but keeping costs down had nothing to do with Herter's demise.

If RCBS tells me they don't farm out their castings to China I will tend to believe them.

Did you skip over post #40? as i said before they may be poured in America now, but they did pour them in China in the past. If they would have stated the facts rather than attempting to deceive customers...i would have no gripes whatsoever.

.....

Lloyd Smale

11-09-2011, 03:22 PM

All i will say to this is i had one rock chucker for about 30 years till i lost it in the big fire and it took alot of abuse through the years and still worked as new. When I had the fire both dillon and rcbs stepped up and gave me free presses because of my loss. Dillon gave me a 550 and rcbs a new rock chucker and alothough i dont use a single stage near as much as i used to ive used it quite a bit in the last couple years and its every bit the press the first one was. I probably use my hornady a bit more because i like the lock and load bushings but have to say the rcbs seems a bit stouter and one of these days im going to buy the parts to convert it to load a load bushings too.

omgb

11-09-2011, 04:01 PM

I just ordered a back issue of Handloader and will post excerpts when it arrives.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA

11-13-2011, 09:07 AM

I have heard that Hornady leaves their customers hanging when it comes to discontinued stuff, but no personal experience with them except defective bullets which they promptly replaced.

I have personal experience with this and yes, they do tend to leave them hanging. Their warm/cold customer service over the last decade finally made me decide to sell my Hornady LnL (pre-7000 serial number) and get an RCBS Pro 2000 auto advance to replace it.

GabbyM

11-13-2011, 10:43 AM

Kraschenbirn

11-13-2011, 11:26 AM

Oops...posted to wrong thread

MtGun44

11-13-2011, 11:44 AM

When RCBS has been making fabulous quality presses and tools for many decades and
everyone agrees that they are extremely generous on their warranty work, why in the world
are so many ready to disbelieve them when they say they have always used American
castings? Personally, I find this "they must be worthless liars" attitude a bit disgusting
from folks that on one hand love their "old" RCBS stuff, have ZERO facts in the case but
are willing to say nasty things about them and assume that they are lying about their
sources.

I like RCBS equipment, have never gotten anything from them that I thought was defective
or inferior and I will start from the point of view of assuming that they are still an honest
company, trying their best to meet customer demands with high quality tools until I see
otherwise with my own eyes. I have zero connection to RCBS except to be a customer
that has been satisfied since the wife bought my first Rock Chucker back in about 1976
for Christmas. Still have it, still works fine but doesn't get as much use as the turrets and
progressives these days.

Bill

Naphtali

11-13-2011, 12:42 PM

Sorry to say I’ve machined quite a bit of cast iron from the PRC. It was good quality and replaced the very large castings we were receiving from Brazil which had warping issues. You’d be in error to assume Chinese industry can’t make good parts whenever they wish or when the customer orders it. That’s the most scary part of it.Gabby:

You have [partially] misinterpreted the reason for my query. I prefer to reward friendship and penalize enmity, to avoid buying where slave labor is the rule rather than the exception, to buy from places where American and "Western" workers would not be horrified by working conditions.

For years I have followed my preference. While it requires effort to do this, I also make my preference known to retailers and manufacturers whom I patronize. Are there Red Chinese products I buy? Of course - when I have no options available AND when I cannot work around having no options.

Is my preference exclusive to Red Chinese products? No. I have similar problems with goods from several countries where Islam is the state religion. While I'm a pretty good hater/grudge carrier, I can't hate everybody. So I pick places that offend me most and excise them from my existence as best I can.

Hope this clarifies things.

jcwit

11-13-2011, 02:24 PM

You have [partially] misinterpreted the reason for my query. I prefer to reward friendship and penalize enmity, to avoid buying where slave labor is the rule rather than the exception, to buy from places where American and "Western" workers would not be horrified by working conditions.

Probably not tha U.S. workers would not be willing to do the work but that the EPA and OSHA has put regs on the casting industry to make it just about impossible to continue manufacturing.

Be careful who you blame!

Plus I see the reference to slave labor whenever chinese products are brought up. I seriously doubt all manufacturing in china is done by slave labor, otherwise their ownership of private vehicules would not be going sky-hi as it is.

Jammer Six

11-14-2011, 02:53 AM

I prefer equipment manufactured overseas.

When I ran my business, (a general contracting company) virtually all of our heavy or capital equipment came from overseas.

Equipment manufactured overseas was as accurate, as well built, and as durable as any American made equipment, and the cost was far, far less than American made. In many cases, innovations came from overseas. This is still the case.

The difference it made, for us, was the difference between do-able and a pipe dream. It was a difference that generated American jobs.

Steel manufactured in Brazil and sold by Springfield Armory is every bit as valuable as anything made by Colt.

The precision measurement market is dominated by names from the Far East, and JET and Grizzly have taken Delta's lunch money by force and bought rice with it.

And finally, after 30 years in that business, it is my absolute opinion that stiff, bare knuckled, razor edged competition, on an uneven, unfair playing field, that generates the highest possible strategic threat is both the finest compliment and the best thing that can happen to American industry.

Grow the teeth, sharpen the claw. Do it faster, better, with less, for less, in the dark, in the rain, earlier in the day with a nicer smile. Or go home.

American ingenuity and drive are still very much alive. There are innovators with long, sharp teeth right here on this board. Both Corbin brothers need to take notice, and then they need to start waking up earlier in the morning.

That's good for me, that's good for you, whether the Corbin brothers figure it out or not. Individual players, nationalities, color, creed, race or sex don't matter.

I'll continue to look for the best value, from all corners of the globe.

Carry on.

UNIQUEDOT

11-14-2011, 08:59 PM

everyone agrees that they are extremely generous on their warranty work, why in the world
are so many ready to disbelieve them when they say they have always used American
castings? Personally, I find this "they must be worthless liars" attitude a bit disgusting
from folks that on one hand love their "old" RCBS stuff, have ZERO facts in the case but
are willing to say nasty things about them and assume that they are lying about their
sources.

Bill

Bill, is it not considered fact when the box states that the casting is from China, but a rep for the company insists that "they have always been cast in America"? I will continue to buy and use RCBS products, but that doesn't mean that i shouldn't voice my disgust with their obvious deception.

I would never want my opinions to cause the downfall of great companies such as RCBS and therefore would never tell anyone not to purchase their products except in the case of the press in question, but only because there are better options. I do believe that they are likely cast in the states now as the shelf price jumped fifty bucks in a weeks time at a local store a year or two ago. In reality it would take a tremendous amount of negativity before such a company would even realize their was a problem.

Idaho Sharpshooter

11-15-2011, 03:07 PM

I make it an effort to buy American Made.

As far as the person who said they buy from all over the world; when your job is exported or you are replaced by someone on a guest worker visa your opinion may change. The increasing number of jobs leaving the country will lead, at some point in time, to a tipping point. That is when the economy will tip over and slide into the ocean. America will not do well as a third world country, although the experiment with socialism points us that way.

Rich

kelbro

11-17-2011, 11:42 PM

As someone that spends 3-4 months a year in various Chinese factories, let me assure you that slave labor is rare. About the only slave labor is at 'state-owned' companies that use prison labor which I'm not totally opposed to :).

I have been setting factories up over there for many years and the quality is as good as the company spec'ing or contracting it demands or accepts.

Most would be VERY surprised at the names and number of top American and European companies that manufacture over there. They build to a point where they can import their product into the US/EU/UK, polish it a little, slap a coat of paint on and still claim MADE IN USA. I will not name names since I have to sign non-disclosures and I'm not quite ready to retire yet :)

omgb

11-19-2011, 05:56 PM

jcwit

11-19-2011, 08:23 PM

Ya know folks, we purchase goods from allover the world today. Almost all shoes come from china, to the best of my knowledge there are only 2 U.S. shoe manufactures left here and even they have parts of their lines made overseas. Electronics are even worse, your computers, TV's ect are almost all made in china. Cameras again made in china even Nikon. Clothing, same deal, ever check where your bed sheets are made?, guess again, imported. Going shopping for groceries? Fish--from china, sardines--china, Thailand, Viet Nam, Honey, South America, not sure what country. Autos, assembles here, some at least, with parts from all over.

I could keep this up for pages, but I think there are a few who can surmise what I'm saying.

Now then where am I going with this.

One writer states one company gets castings from china, the same company claims NOT TRUE, so who to believe, who knows. If in fact they are cast over there at least we have cleaner air over here as I'm sure all the pollutants have long since come to earth before reaching our shores. Further I seriously doubt the number of castings one company making reloading equipment will have a huge impact in our unemployment problem, in fact it may be canceled out by the number of longshoreman involved.

Ending thought! QUIT BASHING RCBS

unless someone out there knows beyond a shadow of a doubt what the heck they're talking about.

Thanks omgb for your research and post!

btroj

11-19-2011, 08:32 PM

Who cares? They make a nice press, that is all I care.
I have better things to do than worry aout where everything I buy comes from, much less the materials that were processed to manufacture the item.

I buy what I want and need. The point of origin is not relevant in any way, shape, or form.

Jammer Six

11-19-2011, 09:11 PM

So, does this mean we don't buy what Handloader is printing?

jcwit

11-19-2011, 09:14 PM

Well even tho I posted all of the above I still feel that we should TRY if possible to purchase products made here if the price is reasonable.

If not who is going buy all the corn from Nebraska when they no longer have a job.

Just curious, btroj, what do you do for a living?

jcwit

11-19-2011, 09:20 PM

So, does this mean we don't buy what Handloader is printing?

NO! It means, look at the grand scheme of things. Reloading equipment is way, way down in the list of manufacturing. Think auto engine blocks compared to reloading presses.

Make any sense?

gandydancer

11-19-2011, 09:43 PM

I got a ammo master RCBS single stage (new in 1993) paid $119.00 for it I can load 50BMG on it if I choose to it still looks brand new I use a redding 7 press. I have a dillon 550 I have not used in 10 years with many extras. I get on this site and read about something and "hay" Ive got one of them. GD

btroj

11-19-2011, 09:51 PM

I am a pharmacist.
I don't buy into the whole "buy American" thing. What's "American made" any more?
We live in a global economy, that is a reality we all need to face.
I will say that I do NOT shop at Walmart, I don't like what they do to small business and thaws are crappy to their employees.
I just don't look at tags or labels when I make a purchase. I even like foreign made gun powder and moulds! Or a least when they are the ones that per fit my needs.

I am not a union supporter at all. No problem with u on members but I feel strongly that unions are like political parties- more interested in their own power and money than in doo good on behalf of it's members.

jcwit

11-19-2011, 10:27 PM

Neither do I support Unions, for the same reasons. But again if we do not make an attempt to help[ ourselves its for sure the chinese aren't the ones for us to turn to.

You gotta admit being a pharmacist there is no worry about losing your job, whoever if you were in manufacturing more than likely you'd look at it differently.

Apathy in America is one of our bigest problems, but do as you wish, your life, not mine.

btroj

11-19-2011, 10:58 PM

UNIQUEDOT

11-19-2011, 11:31 PM

OK so handloader #242 Volume 41, Number 4 August-September 2006 arrived yesterday.

On page 31 in an article by John Haviland called "A Tour of RCBS", Haviland gives us the following caption..."Facing page, these castings of reloading presses are imported from China...". The facing page shows a photo of a pile of RC IV raw castings. What this proves is that Haviland said it and HL reported it in print. What it does not prove is that the castings were in fact from China. So, if RCBS says it's wrong, well, who's to say it isn't?

Anyway, I thought I'd post my research just to keep the facts straight. It still doesn't prove that RCBS lied or was misinformed or whatever. So, I'm done with it.

So if they didn't lie why did the box say they were cast in China? I'm a little confused whether you believe they didn't lie when the boxes claimed they were cast there or whether or not the rep lied when he said they never were. ...never mind i think i just confused myself further. :veryconfu :mrgreen:

UNIQUEDOT

11-19-2011, 11:38 PM

Neither do I support Unions, for the same reasons.

Now this is a subject i really can't discuss rationally! and judging from your statement...you know exactly why.

omgb

11-20-2011, 12:19 AM

So if they didn't lie why did the box say they were cast in China? . :veryconfu :mrgreen:

No mention was made in the article of any boxes or labels. There was a text box..i.e. caption that made that statement in reference to a photo on a previous page.

jcwit

11-20-2011, 12:20 AM

Oh, I can lose my job same as anyone.
I was just saying that I don't go looking for labels that say where something is made.
I have a Dillon because it is a great press, not because of where it was made. By the way, I have no clue where it came from.
Someone here posted that we should only buy items made from American mined and smelted ore, cast and machined in the US. How the heck are we supposed to know where the raw materials came from?
My other big issue with "buy American" is the old idea that Toyotas are foreign but a Chevy isn't. Saw a show the other day showing the Canadian plants where odd parts are stamped and engines assembled for the new Camaro. Is is no more an American made car thana Toyota assembled in the US from many imported parts. The company name means diddly.

I know way to many who speak the "buy American" thing but who are so cheap they can't stand to pay for it. These guys all are buyi Cinese because it fits their wallet. Hollow words for sure.

Rhetoric means little to me, I am a believer in action.

Ya, you can lose your job like anyone else but in todays market its highly unlikely.

Where I see the problem is the attitude you seem to have is not caring one way or the other. Thats why I used the word apathy, which seems to be what you have.

Another quick question, how do you feel when the National Anthem is played and do you stand up and remove your hat and place your hand over your heart or are you apathetic about that also?

I actually believe you REALLY know where I'm coming from, and if you don't, I feel sorry for you.

btroj

11-20-2011, 12:47 AM

I will always rise and remove my hat for the National Anthem.
I resent th insinuation that not always looking to buy American is in-patriotic. That is a bunch of bull.
We are the ultimate capitalist society. If American manufacturing can make a product that I want, with the features I want, at a price I am willing to pay then I will buy it. If not, I go elsewhere.
I have the freedom of choice, don't I? If others choose to always look for a "Made in USA" label then more powder to them, I just won't be bullied into doing likewise.
Call me apathetic if you choose, I call myself a normal American buyer. I don't think I am apathetic any more than you feel you are being oppressive.

I do know where you are coming from, question my patriotism if you must but I never will.

UNIQUEDOT

11-20-2011, 12:29 PM

I have the freedom of choice, don't I?

Currently.

If others choose to always look for a "Made in USA" label then more powder to them, I just won't be bullied into doing likewise.

The more you contribute to their economy and the downfall of ours the more likely you will be "bullied" into saluting their flag

btroj

11-20-2011, 12:33 PM

Maybe my tinfoil hat works better than yours?

UNIQUEDOT

11-20-2011, 12:52 PM

Maybe my tinfoil hat works better than yours?

Funny, but you have to take into consideration everything. You may have the right to choose to put your neighbors out of work by supporting oriental products, but when they have no job neither do those they bought their supplies etc. from because they no longer have the need or money. By the time the spiral ends either you, your children, or your grandchildren will realize that the two bucks you saved is now worthless anyway.

jcwit

11-20-2011, 01:53 PM

I have the freedom of choice, don't I?

Sorry, not anymore you don't, and thats a fact, the manufacturing has been relocated to Asia.

I call myself a normal American buyer

That is your opinion of yourself, and as I already stated is one of the problems with our society here in the U.S.A. AKA Apathy, you just don't get it.

Ah well, I'm old, been spit at and called a baby killer and worse, I'll let you youngsters solve the mess, and pay off the chinese.

Lets get back to supporting a good company ie; RCBS which has had unfounded accusations thrown at them.

omgb

11-20-2011, 02:22 PM

This entire blog thread had degenerated into a bunch of name-calling chicken $%@t. Dang, I wish it would stop. RCBS says it doesn't import castings from China. OK, that's good enough for me. An old article from almost 5 years ago made the statement they did. RCBS denied it. Hey, things happen when dealing with the press.

Now as to who shops where and buys what....that's hardly a measure of patriotism. C'mon people, as much as I wish we did have a large amount of heavy manufacturing here in America, the fact is we don't and most likely will never have again. Yes, the Chinese have a good share of our old mfg jobs. OK, the rules of free market caused that. I don't know about you but I much prefer a demand economy to a managed command economy. That means that we have to reduce our operating costs, make our mfg more efficient and be ready to compete. Until then, the free market means one is free to buy and sell where ever the price best suits one. Freedom isn't without costs. Just because it's freedom to buy doesn't make it any less precious or any more free.

Dissagree all you like but the name calling and denegration of character has to stop. That activity is decidedly unpatriotic and ungentlemanly. If it continues, I'd like the moderators to lock down this thread.

R J Talley

UNIQUEDOT

11-20-2011, 02:35 PM

Now as to who shops where and buys what....that's hardly a measure of patriotism. C'mon people, as much as I wish we did have a large amount of heavy manufacturing here in America, the fact is we don't and most likely will never have again.

Good lord do you even have to wonder why?

Yes, the Chinese have a good share of our old mfg jobs.

Once again do you even have to wonder why?

OK, the rules of free market caused that.

Oh really? do you think it might have something to do with the fact that people didn't reject to it and bought the stuff even though his neighbor was put out in the streets?

I don't know about you but I much prefer a demand economy to a managed command economy. That means that we have to reduce our operating costs, make our mfg more efficient and be ready to compete.

Huh? what do you think drove up our marketing costs in the first place?

Until then, the free market means one is free to buy and sell where ever the price best suits one.

I guess until one has saved himself out of his own home.

R J Talley

.....

btroj

11-20-2011, 03:06 PM

Yep. Blame me. I did it. I bought a few items made elsewhere and personally forced manufacturing offshore. I did it with tech support too.

Now if I could find a "shoot me now" smiley I would be happy.

462

11-20-2011, 04:29 PM

I reckon that all of us would prefer that everything we buy be American made, but the reality is otherwise and arguing about it isn't going to change anything. Nor is questioning my patriotism, because I happen to buy a foreign made product. As a veteran, I could easily be offended, but will overlook it. Unless it continues.

Question: You are shopping for a new gizmo, and find two that are appealing. Both gizmos are of equal quality and value. The company that makes the first gizmo is foreign owned and is made in a foreign country. The company that makes the second gizmo is American owned and the gizmo is made in America. However, it's very well known that the American owned company is extremely anti-gun and has contributed much money to anti-gun organizations and lobbyists. As a gun owner, which gizmo will you buy?

jcwit

11-20-2011, 04:47 PM

I see some of the folks here still don't get it. I'll try one more time. Yes we all buy imported goods, we have to as many items are no longer made here and are only available as imported.

But the apathy comes in when there is the attidude that --I don't care, I'll don't give a rats behind where anything is made and it makes me no difference, I could care less, after all it all about me in the end, therein lies the problem. No loyaty whatsoever.

Maybe there's a few who can comprehend my concept or what I'm trying to get across. To those who it still goes over their head, theres not much more I can say to help you. But keep working and paying your taxes, your country needs you.

BTW, I don't believe I've called anyone a name!

44 WCF

11-20-2011, 06:03 PM

Several years ago there was a magazine article about the Rock Chucker press and it stated the raw castings came from China. It had photos of the castings in obvious overseas crates. At first I read it in disgust, but then realized the US has ran nearly every cast iron fourndry outside our borders. All the machininb g according to the artice was done stateside with lateste CNC equip. Welcome to hte state of heavy industry that our regs have, without compromise or assistance chased outside our borders........sad,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sad,,,,,,,,,,,,,, sad,,,,,,,,,,even worse look at the country of Origin on your next set of Ridgid Pipe threading dies,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

UNIQUEDOT

11-20-2011, 06:17 PM

Question: You are shopping for a new gizmo, and find two that are appealing. Both gizmos are of equal quality and value. The company that makes the first gizmo is foreign owned and is made in a foreign country. The company that makes the second gizmo is American owned and the gizmo is made in America. However, it's very well known that the American owned company is extremely anti-gun and has contributed much money to anti-gun organizations and lobbyists. As a gun owner, which gizmo will you buy?

Hmmmm, would there be much difference? What foreign nation doesn't want to disarm us? I definitely don't want to support any company that i know is funding anti gun groups, but then again we are in bed with the UN.

nanuk

11-20-2011, 10:43 PM

UNIQUEDOT: while I understand your sentiment, I believe you are living in a dream

it is one thing to buy local, supporting local business, and a whole other thing to say you will only buy American

we ARE a global economy, there is no longer any way around it, and a grassroots, "Buy Local" won't change that..

I ALWAYS try to buy local, to support LOCAL business and Local jobs, but the products they sell are mostly Foreign made...

In Canada, my cost of living would go up at least 5x if I tried to buy locally produced/manufactured.... Even FOOD!
almost ALL imported food is far cheaper than locally grown... Farmers markets are a JOKE!

not many local manufactures can compete against foreign mass produced anything

one other thing... Slave wages to us is a fair living wage on many other parts of the planet!

KohlerK91

11-21-2011, 12:05 AM

[QUOTEone other thing... Slave wages to us is a fair living wage on many other parts of the planet![/QUOTE]

Is it really?

Fair Living wage.................I dont think so

jcwit

11-21-2011, 12:24 AM

Just what is "FAIR".

Explain who's working for slave wages.

btroj

11-21-2011, 12:30 AM

jcwit

11-21-2011, 12:56 AM

I get the concept entirely, you want me to pay more to support American labor. Are you a union activist? If not, you should be.
It isn't apathy, it is a desire to buy a product that fits my needs and wants. I am buying an item, not a manufacturer or laborer.

It isn't over my head at all. I just choose to differ with you.

To the best of my knowledge there has been no name calling, just a spirited debate. I am in no way offended by any of this.

No I'm not an activist, let alone a union one. Have never been a member of a union nor has anyone in my family to my knowledge. Wife and I ran our own retail business till we retired because of my health reasons. Again with that said, I stated

Yes we all buy imported goods, we have to as many items are no longer made here and are only available as imported.

Also as I previously stated the apathy comes in because of

But the apathy comes in when there is the attidude that --I don't care, I'll don't give a rats behind where anything is made and it makes me no difference, I could care less, after all it all about me in the end, therein lies the problem. No loyaty whatsoever.

Comprehend? Should seem simple, No?

btroj

11-21-2011, 08:47 AM

Loyalty to WHAT? I am loyal to products that work. Products that do what I need, at the price I want to pay.
People quit being loyal to American auto companies because the manufacturers quit being loyal to them. Sell me a poor quality vehicle at a higher price? Really? I remember back when you didn't see the Asian cars here much. The American car companies got greedy and stupid and opened a door for competition.

I just want to know what I am supposed to be loyal to? If you are saying I have an "obligation" to support American labor then say so.
I am far more concerned aout where I buy a product than where it was made. I like to support local small businesses. I hate Walmart. Don't go in their stores even once a year. I tend to shop in my own city, at least my own county. Why not support the local economy?
I just don't get the idea that not "buying American" is patriotic. It sounds like the union line about not buying foreign cars. How many of the Chevys those bumper stickers are on where made from ALOT of foreign made parts? I don't see how a US made Toyota is foreign but a Ford assembled in Japan is American made.
I think for myself. I see things the way I do. If American manufacturing wants to grow they need to be competitive. I don't like the government to subsidize anything and I won't do it either.
Again, it isn't apathy. Apathy is not,knowing the label exists or what the ramifications of same are. I know full well, I just don't think the "buy American" mantra is worth my time.

jcwit

11-21-2011, 11:12 AM

Then I guess that its not your opinion but your attidude that creats my opinion of you.

I note that was stated in a few prior posts. Your quote.

Apathy is not,knowing the label exists or what the ramifications of same are.

Wrong!

Apathy (also called impassivity or perfunctoriness) is a state of indifference, or the suppression of emotions such as concern, excitement, motivation and passion. An apathetic individual has an absence of interest in or concern about emotional, social, spiritual, philosophical or physical life.

In other words attidude.

UNIQUEDOT

11-21-2011, 03:24 PM

UNIQUEDOT: while I understand your sentiment, I believe you are living in a dream

it is one thing to buy local, supporting local business, and a whole other thing to say you will only buy American

I'm not saying i will only buy American as i don't have much choice, but the reason i don't have much choice is because the majority of consumers couldn't care less and that has been stated by a member in this thread. I prefer to buy locally when i can and i prefer to buy American when i can. Heck just a couple weeks ago i made a purchase without second thought just because someone posted a link on a forum to a product at a good price. The thing is though it was a case tumbler and i doubt that there is even a vibratory tumbler made in the USA. Some part of just about everything we buy will likely be from China...nope i don't have much choice. BTW for the record i despise unions with a passion!

btroj

11-21-2011, 07:50 PM

And I am apathetic about what others think of me in general.
I am who I am. I make no excuses for it.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA

11-28-2011, 04:17 PM

With the reality of production in the world today, I won't comment on the politics of things and I have no idea if RCBS castings are made in China. I do, however, have knowledge that some RCBS products are made in China. Recently, I ordered a couple of their large powder reservoirs to see if they would fit on a standard Uniflow to increase hopper size. I received them today. On the plastic bags protecting the hoppers, there is a black sticker with the words "Made In China" clearly labeled. Here is a pic:

jcwit

11-28-2011, 09:32 PM

So the plastic bag that they packaged the part in is made in china?

Where was the shipping lable on the package that had your address on made?

UNIQUEDOT

11-28-2011, 10:18 PM

I'm sure the made in china sticker is for the hoppers and not the bag, but rcbs never denied having plastics molded in China either. I wouldn't be surprised if even Lyman imports things from China. I know that Dillon does such as calipers. Lee precisions claims they will never import anything from overseas, but i guess we will see what the future holds.

katch1

11-28-2011, 11:40 PM

btroj whats the difference between shopping at a small retailer vs wal-mart and buying whatever you want regardless of where its manufactured ? would you like to work as a pharmacist at wal-mart instead of where you presently do? i'm sure the drugs are cheaper at wally world and my wife says they are the same drugs, so why pay more elsewhere?
i work at a medium sized manufacturin company that has actually got work back from china that they undercut us by a mile, because why??? yep they made **** and our customer had very little patience for that.we get work from companies that have outsourced work and receive junk from overseas for so long they dont have the manufacturing capabilities to fix anything, so they send us the parts with a chunk of change to fix it. its that or ship it back overseas.
and no i am not in any way a union activist, i work in a non-union shop because thats the way i like it, i've been treated by the uaw in a bad way too many times
my 16yr old son was looking at cordless drills at wal-mart, reading the labels when the employee asked"can i help you?" boy asked" do you have any of these that are made here?"
employee says"nothings made here kid" boy says" i was!"
we do really need to take this country back, i mean really think about it we are borrowing the money to pay the presidents wages, along with all the other jackyls in dc, does this make any sense?
btroj do not look at this as a personal attack
i think we all need to wake up, this country was built on self-sacrifice, not selfishness
ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. where did that go everybody?
sorry better get off the box
pardon me if i offended

Jammer Six

11-29-2011, 02:06 AM

ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. where did that go everybody?
He was shot.

Pressman

11-29-2011, 07:35 AM

It is worse then we think. I have a truck with a classic american name, Frieghtliner. It is designed in Germany by Daimler Benz and made in Mexico then sold here as an American truck. There is nothing Americam about it and the cheap plastic **** design proves it.
Sinc Daimler Benz now owns the Frieghtliner name they have closed the Portland plant and stopped making the American designed FLD models. All that is left is european/german designs. Nothing American.
Then they sell them REAL cheap to big freight companies who worry more about the bottom line than made in America. The used trucks have almost no value after four years so Benz has to buy them back and ship them overseas. Still they make money and are the number one truck seller by number of units sold.

End of rant before I get mad.!!

Ken

jcwit

11-29-2011, 11:35 AM

He was shot.

What was the meaning of that comment?

The author of the comment was shot, yes, the idea needs to be revived.

garym1a2

11-29-2011, 01:14 PM

The biggest reason that stuff is made in China and not the USA is not labor costs! It is the US goverment and its policies. In the US their is a heavy tax burden on all labor used to make products(SSI, uinemployment, FICA,...) Their are also lots of regulators from OSHA and the EPA that drive up costs. Imported product does not have these issues. Plus If we try to sell goods made in US to China the people would love to buy our product, but China so heavy taxes inports that not much US made product is sold in China. Yet US cars (made in China) like the Buick and Ford focus are very popular in China. Given the choice the China people would pick the US made product evertime even when price higher. Yet the average US buyer would just pick the cheapest product to buy most times.

P.S. you can get quality products made in China, just most corperate buyers only want lowest price.

Reload3006

11-29-2011, 01:27 PM

I am all for supporting MADE IN USA ... but frankly RCBS has always gone above and beyond for me on any issue I have ever had. I dont care if their presses were made in Timbuktu if they stand behind them the way they do. Its a lesson that Lyman and others should learn and heed. I have even gotten better customer service from RCBS than Dillons NBS warranty.

jcwit

11-29-2011, 01:37 PM

I'm sure the made in china sticker is for the hoppers and not the bag, but rcbs never denied having plastics molded in China either. I wouldn't be surprised if even Lyman imports things from China.

Those statements are nothing more than assumptions.

katch1

11-29-2011, 07:22 PM

He was shot.

he was not the idea

consumerism will kill this country, i mean how many plastic santas and such do you need.

i try to buy american made stuff, but its not easy sometimes due to corporate greed, and political corruption, really we borrow money to pay our elected officals, are they really gonna have our countrys best interests at heart, or do the bidding of who really pays the bills?

UNIQUEDOT

11-29-2011, 07:42 PM

Those statements are nothing more than assumptions.

Yes, that's why i said "I wouldn't be surprised" but we all know that to distinguish the difference in packaging and product origin when they are not of the same there is generally a statement such as "Product made in USA packaging made in China". BTW for those of you whom refuse to believe that the supreme was cast in China, do you not recall when there was a flood of them for sale as "new never used, but without factory packaging"? and then of course the considerable price increase.

jcwit

11-29-2011, 08:31 PM

Well then lets just make the assumption that RCBS is lying to all of us.

And in the process breaking U.S. labeling and import laws.

UNIQUEDOT

11-30-2011, 01:49 AM

Well then lets just make the assumption that RCBS is lying to all of us.

And in the process breaking U.S. labeling and import laws.

RCBS in whole never denied the Chinese castings, but a rep for the company did. Products no longer have to be stamped or marked made in China as long as the packaging or some other form of document included with the item states origin. It's been this way for several years... as a knife collector i raised a ruckus with several knife companies over it.

jcwit

11-30-2011, 07:48 AM

Products no longer have to be stamped or marked made in China as long as the packaging or some other form of document included with the item states origin.

As in

And in the process breaking U.S. labeling

GabbyM

11-30-2011, 12:40 PM

Sometimes the Chinese will come to a manufacturer with a container full of product already made up and hand it to them as a sample. I've seen it done and worked on the projects. Have also lost a job mostly due to it. China knows how to bring in work. In my case it was Nelson of Peoria Illinois. Our little shop had some contracts with them. This is Nelson of the lawn sprinkler and hose nozzle type products. The Chinese had reverse engineered most of there product line then one day they showed up in Peoria, IL and laid out the products all packaged ready to hang on hardware store shelves. Price of the products was less than we could buy the brass stock off the truck for. Nelson knuckled under and accepted the bids. Fearing the Chinese would simply package there items and hang them right next to theirs at lower prices. Shut down there manufacturing at Peoria. Then China came in and bid on the whole machinery line which was only about two years old. Container it all up and shipped it to China in one of those mostly empty ships heading West.

What I’m getting at is RCBS may have had crates full of Chinese casting they did not buy or solicit for. Just given to them as samples with a price quote for speculative future orders that never came.

We have market dumping laws in place but have not heard of them being enforced for years. Just to many rich dirt bags and politicians making money. Most Americans are so totally brain washed they think it’s the American workers fault.

RCBS is a good company making great products here in the USA.

edler7

11-30-2011, 01:29 PM

I went to Bass Pro a few weeks ago to buy some new boots. Almost every shoe or boot on the display wall was made in China. There were 4, maybe 5 made in USA boots and they were all half again as much as the China boots.

I left and went and bought a pair of Danners that were made in the USA. Unfortunately, some of them are marked made in China, too.

katch1

11-30-2011, 04:21 PM

edler 7 i have politely made mention of these kinds of things to store managers many times over the years, and sent a few e-mails about it, never seems to come to much, but if more people did then maybe......

UNIQUEDOT

11-30-2011, 09:36 PM

As in

A sticker on the bottom of the box, a snip of loose paper thrown in the package, or even the bottom corner of an instruction manual.

they did not buy or solicit for.

Then what were they doing with RCBS's molds?

RCBS is a good company making great products here in the USA.

Very true, although not all their stuff is made in America.

jcwit

11-30-2011, 11:54 PM

Very true, although not all their stuff is made in America.

Back that statement up, other than their electronic items.

We all realize almost electronics are imported.

jcwit

11-30-2011, 11:58 PM

Products no longer have to be stamped or marked made in China as long as the packaging or some other form of document included with the item states origin.

A sticker on the bottom of the box, a snip of loose paper thrown in the package, or even the bottom corner of an instruction manual.

So again as I stated, with out the slip, or note on the box or whatever they would be breaking the import labeling laws as I said.

jcwit

12-01-2011, 12:00 AM

Then what were they doing with RCBS's molds?

Not real hard to make sand cast molds.

Hang Fire

12-01-2011, 03:13 PM

Buy a Lee Classic Cast instead ;).

Ditto on that, best SS press made, bar none.

UNIQUEDOT

12-02-2011, 01:18 AM

Back that statement up, other than their electronic items.

Dave's photo clearly shows the made in China sticker on the bag.

So again as I stated, with out the slip, or note on the box or whatever they would be breaking the import labeling laws as I said.

Again Dave's powder reservoir bag had the origin clearly marked. Another thing if the castings from the frame of the supreme came from China, but was machined in the USA rcbs was not required to state the origin of the "raw" casting. I found this out during a conversation with the folks at Leatherman tool group after the lawsuit they were involved in. As long as the item wasn't stamped MADE IN THE USA there would be no labeling laws broken.

Not real hard to make sand cast molds.

True, but due to rcbs's patent on the supreme they could not have made any molds or castings without prior permissions from rcbs.

Jammer Six

12-02-2011, 01:58 AM

he was not the idea
It may not have been his idea at all.

In any case, the idea that you serve your country rather than your country serving you can be interpreted either way-- as a bedrock of individual service, or as the bedrock of a socialist ideal.

So, like most sayings that survive the test of time, it does so because anyone can use it to mean anything they want it to mean.

President Kennedy was many things. Many of them were great things.

A conservative who favored the individual is not one of them.

I do not base my political views on soundbites that sound good.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA

12-02-2011, 09:04 AM

A lot of the discussions in this thread have been about who buys what where. Fact is, there was some reason the original manufacturer's took their manufacturing overseas. What was the reason?

The reason was excessive government regulation and taxation. Not consumer choices, regulation and taxation.

Once a good bit of that manufacturing went to China and China began to sell products here, the Chinese, a very intelligent people, were smart enough to take advantage of it and become extremely competitive. They've worked steadily on improving their quality control, the quality of their product and their manufacturing base. At the same time, they've been brutally efficient at getting into as many US markets as possible. Is that their fault? No, it's how business is done. If you're in manufacturing, you need as much market as possible to keep your factory with orders. That's about competition and competition is about survival of the fittest.

If we don't get rid of the communistic government we now have, get rid of the regulation and taxes choking American businesses to death, we soon may not be able to do so. If we fail to correct this course asap, we will soon be broke and poor with no money and no manufacturing to generate wealth. And we don't have much time to do this in. This next election may be our last chance to do so.

My father once told me that a country that doesn't manufacture is a country that can't generate wealth, because they have nothing to sell and no work for it's people. Soon, very soon, we are going to be in that boat. We are almost in it now.

Vote conservative in the next election and pray.

All that said, we can see the history of other manufacturing countries who went into decline over in Europe. Classic examples being Germany, France and Great Britain.

katch1

12-02-2011, 12:33 PM

It may not have been his idea at all.

In any case, the idea that you serve your country rather than your country serving you can be interpreted either way-- as a bedrock of individual service, or as the bedrock of a socialist ideal.

So, like most sayings that survive the test of time, it does so because anyone can use it to mean anything they want it to mean.

President Kennedy was many things. Many of them were great things.

A conservative who favored the individual is not one of them.

I do not base my political views on soundbites that sound good.

nor do i jammer, i beleive the point i was trying to make was that the me generation has taken it to the extereme. the amont of people that think government should be our nanny has gotten out of proportion with the people who do for themselves
we try to do for ourselves as much as we can in our household, burn wood for heat, load our own shells, cast our bullets, process all our own deer ect.
when my kids go to their friends house they can tell the difference, and you can tell the difference in the kids uptown

my view of JFK is exactly the same as yours by the way, he went a long way for the son of a bootlegger.

Jammer Six

12-02-2011, 02:07 PM

nor do i jammer, i beleive the point i was trying to make was that the me generation has taken it to the extereme.
Then I would use your own words-- to my ear, your words sound better.

Using words that can be interpreted as "We all live for the State, we all serve the State, and we all die for the State. The State, The State, long live The State!" does not deliver your message.

Keep in mind that all of this is merely my opinion, and if people want to rattle on about words spoken by Sun Tzu, General Powell, Stormin' Norman, or the Great Warrior Yoda, then I suppose that's their prerogative.

But such quotes don't always serve the intended goal.

And that amuses me.

Carry on.

katch1

12-02-2011, 02:44 PM

point taken jammer

dave your father was absolutely correct, if you dont provide a good someone else wants to buy, where does your paycheck come from?

remember when the japanese changed one of theirs cities names to usa, so they could legaly label the junk from there made in the usa?

this attitude of cheaper is better has even creeped into the firearms industry of this country, of all things. i mean didnt they learn from the pre-post-64 winchester debacle? the post 64 winchesters were an ok piece, but that generation was used to the quality that the pre-64s had. i think these companies think we are all stupid sheep that only look at the price tag, well not all of us, look at the companies out west, cooper,kimber sharpsand such. people are willing, maybe not on the scale rwemington wants maybe, to pay for quality, and to wait up to a year to get it
bill clinton said we needed to get away from trying to drive the economy with manufacturing and go to more of an information technology driven economy, really??? hows that working??

jcwit

12-02-2011, 09:21 PM

True, but due to rcbs's patent on the supreme they could not have made any molds or castings without prior permissions from rcbs.

Since when has this made the chinese any difference in copying anything? I've seen enough Fake Rolex watches and other items. They "the chinese" could care less.

Dave's photo clearly shows the made in China sticker on the bag.

Yup, indicating the BAG was Made in china, no idea where the hopper was made.

Side note here, announced tonight on The Hillbilly Knife Show that Case Knives are moving production to china. Another U.S. icon down the tubes, thanks to Zippo.

UNIQUEDOT

12-03-2011, 02:33 PM

Yup, indicating the BAG was Made in china, no idea where the hopper was made.

C'mon now you gotta know that sticker is for the contents.

Case Knives are moving production to china.

Please tell me this has to be some sort of misunderstanding! I honestly feel nauseous after reading this.

jcwit

12-03-2011, 03:11 PM

C'mon now you gotta know that sticker is for the contents.

No I don't, Most everything I've seen, is marked on the item is said item is large enough. Only time I've seen it on the packaging is when the item is so small as to require it to be on something else other than the item.

Something else are these packages sealed? If not more than likely the item is only packaged in the imported bag.

Ya know I've purchased items with packaging with the company name Weyerhauser Co., I seriously doubt they were the manufacturer.

Just the other day I purchased a replacement leather watch strap and even as small as it was it gave country of origin on it, as did the button batteries I also used at the same time.

Jammer Six

12-03-2011, 10:14 PM

So, if the sticker is on the packaging, it means the package was made in China.

If the sticker is on the goods, the goods were made in China.

And in any case, if the deal is a good one, or if you want the goods, you buy them regardless of where they're made.

Have I got all that right?

miestro_jerry

12-04-2011, 01:25 AM

I have moved around this world since the late 60s. It cost me almost nothing to have some kid shine my boots in one place, it was worth the money. An place in the states, a shoe shop can't even sell me the show polish for what I paid that kid.

My last American traditional name brand car was a Ford and it spent more time in the shop than it did with me. I have been driving another American name brand car, Honda. I change the oil in it every 3,000 miles or so. the last two Honda I have owned were traded in because I want the new one, not because it was falling apart. They have served me well, they were build mostly in Ohio.

My tractor is John Deere 950, built in 1984, runs like a champ! It was not made in America, never had any problems with it.

We have been in a global economy for 0ver 40 years.

I own a farm, if you heard what recent high school graduates want an hour to be a handiman or utility worker on my farm, you want that wage also. Which that price is $20.00 an hour. I pay $12.50 an hour for people that were born in and raised in my area to work and they are willing to work hard for that wage. Do I get any reward for not hiring illegals, No. In the long run, my seasonal workers actually make more a year than I do. Because I work year round.

Ammo, most people are trying to buy ammo as cheap as possible. So where does it come from? Many firearms are being pieced meal made in the states with foreign parts. Some are completely made overseas and have a traditional American name stamped on it.

So Made in America or Made in the U.S.A. means little if anything these days. The big American pipeline company that bullied their way thru my area, bought their pipe from the Chinese, because that stuff isn't made here any more. They were fueled by greed and they paid out squat to cross peoples land, if you objected they just used emient domain and you get paid next to nothing.

My pocket knife that I would stake my life on is a Lightfoot, made in Canada, don't tell Greg that he might as well be an American. His quality is far superior to many knives I have seen selling at the high end stores. Would you pay $350 for a tactical knife that is hand made by somebody who speaks english as his first language or buy one that cost $70 and if there is a problem you will have to deal with a distributor who knows nothing about tactical fighting, instead of the maker.

The question at the moment is a simple one, would you work for the wages they pay overseas? On some conference call I was on, I discovered that basic worker in the U.S. has to make close to $15 an hour or have a combined family wage to equal $15 an hour. That is to be a lower form of middle class and have a bare bones apartment.

Most of my neighbor that are living the American dream by having both people working, they don't have new cars. In fact I know when a couple have a baby, the Camaro or the P/U truck are in the yard with "for sale" signs in them. These days people don't get benefits, wages are being cut dramatically, plus now we see famous actors pushing the Food Bank on TV.

My father worked and my mother stayed home, don't see that much any more. Lets see one TV (b&w) they had a station wagon until I finished high school and went into the military.

My G.I. bill and working, paid for my college. I owed a couple of companies for paying my way thru school, but not the banks. Would you or your kids be willing to work for some organization to get thru college, plus there is always the National Guard college programs. A friend of mines daughter got her way paid thru college and medical school by the Navy, so she will have a decent retirement and no debt within 20 years, other friends figure they will have their college loans paid off by the time they are 60.

So we are back to the real question, are you willing to work for the same wage as those people over seas, you know the ones that makes most of what Walmart sells? To me it's no longer matters where things are made, so long as the quality is there. Would you want a complex rifle made to sell for $39.95 in this day and age? It's hard enough finding surplus rifles for under $100 at the moment. My Russian Moisin Nagant sold for $49.95 when it hit the U.S. Market, I bought a select version with lots of extras for $89.99. Now I can only find them in decent shape for about 2 or 3 hundred dollars.

$3.75 an hour any one? :violin:

Jerry

MtGun44

12-04-2011, 01:36 AM

I would not work for the wages they pay overseas, but so what? They don't pay SS and
US income tax, they get all their stuff MUCH, MUCH cheaper than we do.

Totally invalid comparison. Pointless. It does not take into account choices and alternatives
available in a society. In less developed countries, there are few choices available, so people
choose WITHIN THEIR LIFE AND THEIR SOCIETY AND THEIR SITUATION what makes sense.
It has nothing to do with us.

Bill

katch1

12-04-2011, 02:24 AM

also remember that a lot of foreign countries subsidise their industries through tarriffs on our goods, if it was the other way around it might work more in our favor, dont ya think?
if you were to have seen pictures of the construction of the new dam in china you would have seen lots of heavy lifting machines not made in china, but in wisconsin, wonder why that was?
if you look at pictures of the fukijima nuke plant you will also see machinery that came from wisconsin, which cost $1 million dollars just to get it there.
i guess my point is that the us used to be the dominant manufacturer in the world, quality and to a certain point quantity, but with all the gov red tape that it takes to get anything done in a manufacturing, there is little hope of getting back to that point.

Jammer Six

12-04-2011, 02:38 AM

i guess my point is that the us used to be the dominant manufacturer in the world, quality and to a certain point quantity, but with all the gov red tape that it takes to get anything done in a manufacturing, there is little hope of getting back to that point.
I don't believe that position is desirable, any more than it's desirable to shine boots when someone else can do it faster, better and cheaper.

The heart of this thread is this: manufacturing is no longer the domain of a first world nation, like shining boots, it is moving to second and third world nations, while first world nations take the shined boots and move on.

In my opinion, better to move with the first world nations than insist that we retain every last boot shining job here in the United States.

jcwit

12-04-2011, 03:50 AM

Jammer, you better hope your job isn't the next one to be shipped over to a third world country so we don't have to support you and yours thru welfare and food stamps.

Maybe it would be better is our attidude here in the U.S. changed a bit and we decided to look after our own folks by supporting the sweat of their brow and their production instead of throwing our home companies under the bus to save a few bucks to be sent overseas so our government can borrow the money to support the unemployed because of lost jobs.

I realize thats hard for one to understand when they're concerned about their shoes. But try to look at the biger picture.

Furthermore I'm not to concerned about surplus Mosin Nagats made back in the 1930's and 1940's as I'm concerned with present day arms coming from the factories right now using U.S. workers labor.

katch1

12-04-2011, 05:09 AM

being able to manufacture durable goods is actually a matter of national security if you really look at it right.
i mean are you really gonna trust someone else to mke your next fighter jet for you? i mean really,all they have to do is what we did to iran back in the 70's and not give us parts and then what?
jammer so what would the domain of a first world nation be? and yes i shine my own shoes

UNIQUEDOT

12-04-2011, 12:57 PM

with all the gov red tape that it takes to get anything done in a manufacturing, there is little hope of getting back to that point.

Perhaps rather than accept the red tape we should care enough to take the tape down. You know unions are just as responsible for many of our jobs going overseas yet the average U.S. minimum wage worker continues to blindly support them.

Maybe it would be better is our attidude here in the U.S. changed a bit and we decided to look after our own folks by supporting the sweat of their brow and their production instead of throwing our home companies under the bus to save a few bucks to be sent overseas so our government can borrow the money to support the unemployed because of lost jobs.

Very well said!

not give us parts and then what?

Perhaps we would stop dumping the raw materials on China and bring back parts production to the U.S.A.

Jammer Six

12-06-2011, 01:18 AM

It seems to me that the entitlement attitude is the bigger problem.

No one owes anyone anything.

You aren't entitled to a job, an income or a certain standard of living simply because you were fortunate enough to be born American.

The job is a job, not your job. You may hold it as long as you are productive.

Therefore, none of us are obligated to buy from any certain firm, and "buy American" is a myth, it is propaganda. The ideas "our own folks", "us" and "them" create far more problems than they solve.

If you generate an economic advantage in your product, I will buy it.

If you don't, I don't owe you anything. If I did, I would "owe" the same support to Chinese workers.

There is no entitlement.

And finally, understand that this is all my opinion, nothing more. None of it is meant personally, I am discussing conditions and theories. None of this is meant to offend.

Four Fingers of Death

12-06-2011, 04:28 AM

I bought my Rockchucker in 1981. It is as good as new. I use graphite grease on the ram and high qual oil on the pins, etc. I don't know how good RCBS warranty is in Australia because nothing has ever gone wrong with the press or th enumerous dies and tools of theirs that I have.

The Rockchucker has loaded squillions of rounds over the years and apart from a few paint chips, is like new.

satchmodog

01-22-2012, 03:10 AM

As stated, RCBS maintains that their castings are made in the USA, and always have been. Also as stated, RCBS backs their equipment for life. That's the life of the equipment, not yours. I've called them for parts for a machine I bought on ebay, and they shipped them free, even after I told them I wasn't the original owner.

They also replaced a Rockchucker press that I had bought used back in the early 1980's. The pivot pins had finally frozen up inside the casting, and I couldn't free them up. When I called them to see how to repair it, they had me send the press to them and in just a little over a week, I had a brand new press on my front porch.

There is no worry about purchasing RCBS equipment.

Hope this helps.

Fred
RCBS no longer warranties for the life of the press, it's for the life of the original purchaser.

Four Fingers of Death

01-22-2012, 08:05 AM

Actually the guy who started this thread mentioned Red Chinese Presses, thinking about it, wouldn't they be Green Chinese presses??

You can usually rely on one of us to be a wiseass.

Heavy lead

01-22-2012, 08:23 AM

Rio Grande

01-22-2012, 09:06 AM

MtGun44

01-23-2012, 10:50 PM

Four Fingers of Death

01-24-2012, 02:53 AM

It is definitely about money these days, because we don't just go down the Mom and Pop gunshop and shop there or order something in if they don't have it in stock.Most shooters check the internet for the best deal and will try and squeeze the retailer for free shipping, etc, so margins are cut to the bone and any corner the can be cut, will probably be cut.

evan price

01-24-2012, 05:47 AM

True, but due to rcbs's patent on the supreme they could not have made any molds or castings without prior permissions from rcbs.

Where's the laughing my behind off smiley?

Do you really think that patents, copyrights, and trade regulations matter one grain of rice to the Chinese?

When I was doing factory automation integration we saw Chinese fakes of some of our customers' products- copied meticulously detail for detail, right down to casting flash and parting line locations. The only way to determine proof was a metallurgical examination.
And that was the good fakes. There are lots of really crummy fakes of really common things.

Ever try to buy a Dietz, Aladdin or Feuerhand lantern? Ever been in a Harbor Freight store? There's copies of copies.
Heck, I saw recently the Vietnamese have started undercutting the Chinese in terms of consumer-grade items such as plastic tarps and packing materials.
It's worse when it ocmes to the repair-parts industry.
Items such as machinery and aircraft parts are commonly faked right down to trademarks and patent numbers.

I saw somewhere that a company that made machinery was buying bolts from a well known maker for years. They wound up switching to a different style of grade-8 bolt and then had problems in the field with the bolts breaking. Finally they called the company to figure out a solution, and was told that the company- famous known bolt company- didn't even MAKE ANY bolts of the style in question and had no records of selling them. Ever. Yup, fakes from China.

An interesting article from CRKT knives:
http://www.crkt.com/knifecounterfeits

Four Fingers of Death

01-24-2012, 06:27 AM

There are no bolts or nuts, etc actually made in Australia anymore.

garym1a2

01-24-2012, 01:14 PM

Patent's are only good for 20 year max.

Dave's photo clearly shows the made in China sticker on the bag.

Again Dave's powder reservoir bag had the origin clearly marked. Another thing if the castings from the frame of the supreme came from China, but was machined in the USA rcbs was not required to state the origin of the "raw" casting. I found this out during a conversation with the folks at Leatherman tool group after the lawsuit they were involved in. As long as the item wasn't stamped MADE IN THE USA there would be no labeling laws broken.

True, but due to rcbs's patent on the supreme they could not have made any molds or castings without prior permissions from rcbs.

Recluse

01-24-2012, 05:05 PM

IT IS ALWAYS about money. If you don't think so, I want you to come and
shovel my driveway for free whenever I need it. I doubt you'll take me up on
it.

So you expect someone to go on doing business, and keep on hiring US workers
and building a product in the US if he can't make a profit? This is nuts.

I can see you'd get rich quick as a businessman. If the govenment makes the
requirements to be in business to difficult, people will give up and go elsewhere.

Bill

Not just money, Bill, but also power.

With the right power, you could make me or anyone else shovel your driveway for free--whether we liked it or not.

With enough money, I could (probably) bribe you to get someone else to shovel your driveway (for free).

The nebulous and draconian rules, regulations, laws, ordinances and other requirements our gov't insists upon is their way of exercising POWER. The way around it? Give money to the right politicians to introduce legislation to exempt you/your b-category from those (expensive) rules.

I've got plenty of money, but I have little to zero power. Conversely, I have more money in the bank than my Congressman, but he has FAR more power over me in determining how the big picture of my life can or will work out. You see lots of folks with lots of money, but little power, but you never see kings and rulers who have little to no money--they always have plenty of money.

It's another reason why the Second Amendment is SO crucial to maintaining our freedom. I've yet to see the dollar bill than can stop a .308 bullet.

Where's the laughing my behind off smiley?

Do you really think that patents, copyrights, and trade regulations matter one grain of rice to the Chinese?

The Chinese are THE biggest bandits, thieves and scoundrels on the planet when it comes to patent, copyright and trademark infringement.

And we can thank every stinking cesspool-sucking politician in Washington going back to Nixon for that.

:coffee:

UNIQUEDOT

01-24-2012, 07:21 PM

Do you really think that patents, copyrights, and trade regulations matter one grain of rice to the Chinese?

It does when they are working with/for rcbs. Do you really think that the Chinese copied a mold on a product before it was introduced and then sent the castings to the American company that held the patent for final finishing without a contract? i think NOT!

Patent's are only good for 20 year max.

People the RCBS SUPREME was a newly designed newly patented press when they had the castings made in China. Is this so hard to understand?

OK so handloader #242 Volume 41, Number 4 August-September 2006 arrived yesterday.

On page 31 in an article by John Haviland called "A Tour of RCBS", Haviland gives us the following caption..."Facing page, these castings of reloading presses are imported from China...". The facing page shows a photo of a pile of RC IV raw castings. What this proves is that Haviland said it and HL reported it in print. What it does not prove is that the castings were in fact from China. So, if RCBS says it's wrong, well, who's to say it isn't?

And since folks continue to drag out this subject i would like to know what issue contains the editorial comment apologizing for the mistake/misprint?

Bullet Caster

01-25-2012, 03:43 AM

I'll settle this once and for all. Send me all your RCBS stuff and I'll gladly use it till it falls apart. On another note, when it came time for me to purchase a 1911 I bought a NORINCO. I knew it was made in China prob. with forced labour. It's not that I didn't want to buy American, it's all I could afford at the time. Did it bother me that it was made in China, NO. I wanted a 1911 and couldn't afford Colt, S&W, Ruger, Para Ordanance, Marlin or anything else manufactured in the USA. I still have it and I still shoot it. It's what worked for me at the time.

If RCBS products are made in China, then fine. I am not un-American because of what I bought. I am a former Marine and anyone saying that I'm un-American can go fly a kite. Period. You want me to have American made products, then buy them for me. I guess I'm just like all the other apathetic persons. BC

rugerdude

01-25-2012, 11:37 PM

I have heard all this for years and I still say now as I said then: Don't blame the companies, blame the consumers. Everyone is more worried about saving that last penny on every single item than they are about where the item came from.

Anyone remember WalMarts big "Bring it home to the USA" campaign back in the '90s? I do. I was working there at the time. Then old Sam died, the kids took over and it all went to h*ll. Everything started being about the bottom line and not about the products, the consumer or, God forbid, the employees. It took little while, but "Made in China" started appearing on a lot more items than "Made in the USA". Interestingly enough, it was about this same time that the NAFTA agreement came into affect. Hmmmm.......

And the saddest thing is, many Americans could really care less. To them, its all about how cheap an item is. And as an aside, China has the capability to make items of comparable quality to most any manufacturer in the world. They have the ability to make, oh lets say a reloading press, as good as anything Dillon or Redding or anyone else can make, as long as you're willing to pay for it. The only reason they cut corners and make such cheap products for the American market, is because that is what the companies, OUR companies, tell them to make.

I'll say right now that I will buy American whenever I can, but the reality is that there are numerous instances nowadays when that is just not possible. It is sad, but the combination of "I want it cheaper" consumers, "I want a better bottom line" companies and "I want more kickbacks in my pocket" politicians has taken us from the #1 manufacturer in the world to where we are today.

Jammer Six

01-26-2012, 12:08 AM

And the saddest thing is, many Americans could really care less.
I wouldn't say that I couldn't care less, I'd say that I'm actively in favor of generating competition for all companies, and overseas competition is the stiffest competition there is.

wv109323

01-26-2012, 11:46 PM

The Chinese culture and law does not believe in patents or patent rights. The Chinese believe that if something is for the betterment of mankind that everyone and all can manufacture that item without reconizing or paying patent rights. They also believe that it is all right to lie and decieve if it is for their country's betterment. A verbal argreement/ gentlemen's agreement means nothing in their culture. A written agreement or contract is not much better. A word to the wise is anytime money is involved get all money up front before work is performed.
Anything that is brought into their country is disassembled and blueprinted for remanufacture.

milprileb

01-27-2012, 09:52 AM

This is what the end of the internet looks like, we have arrived. 8 pages
of fog

Jammer Six

01-27-2012, 12:30 PM

WV109323, do you have any citations for those claims, or are they just your personal opinions, fears and racism?

Ickisrulz

01-27-2012, 03:03 PM

This is what the end of the internet looks like, we have arrived. 8 pages
of fog

At least no one has mentioned Nazis.

o6Patient

01-12-2013, 06:52 PM

The ones we've read about where rock chuckers have broken might be a clue
as to the where a-bouts some were anyway. Unfortunately a lot of co's are doing this
sort of thing- they can buy several castings for the price of one of ours so they
can afford to cull the ones out of specs..unfortunately out of spec doesn't tell
the whole story, damn shame in general.

march41

01-12-2013, 07:47 PM

i have found over the years RCBS tools and cust. service are 2nd to non,But the new scales and tumblers are from china and have a very poor guarentee,not like the ones that were made in the US. you can buy PAST scales made inUS with great guarentee.

Four Fingers of Death

01-13-2013, 05:12 AM

The Smart Reloader brand is cheap and probably made in China or another country like that.

We have a law here when something is made overseas it must be branded "made in ....." if it is assembled here is it marked made in Australia from imported parts and if made from a mix, made in Australia from local and imported parts. Cars seem to escape this, I remember delivering truckloads of window winder assemblies, wiper motors and odd things like that, all imported from Taiwan to two car manafacturers in Sydney and they never marked anything on the sales info (at least I don't think they did, I always seem to have the **** out of my pants and always buy used high mileage stuff). We had an association that had a green and gold tick or star proudly proclaiming that the product was totally owned and manafactured in Australia, I had forgotten about it, maybe there is not much owned and made in Australia.

I studied Sociology as part of my law enforcement studies at uni and while the Aboriginal people refer to themselves as the 'Traditional Owners' of Australia, the Sociology lecturers refer to the British and Americans as the 'Traditional Owners' of Australia. Most if not all of our 'Iconic' brands such as Vegemite, etc are American owned. Most people her always feared the Japanese ownership, but they pale into insignificance compared to you guys and the Brits, but the Chinese are re-writing the rule book.

Sucks, but that is the way of the world.

A pause for the COZ

01-14-2013, 12:39 PM

Have you ever seen any of the shows depicting manufacturing in the USA. Most that are doing it here in new factories are so automated that you barely see any people there any way.
Sooner or latter it will be the owners, a few engineers and every body else working at Wal-mart. Got me man, I cant see the good in it.

EDG

01-15-2013, 01:04 AM

I have said the business owners in the US want a business model that consists of:
1. Book the order
2. A dump truck backs up to the loading dock and dumps a load of money.

Larry D Barr

01-27-2013, 12:37 AM

As much as I would like to buy all American, all the time, some times it's simply not possible. I have two Rock Island Armory 1911s. Made in the Phillipines. Yeah, I'd love to buy American, but I got the two Rocks for just over half of what an STI or Dan Wesson would have cost. From what I've heard, Armscor, the parent company of RIA, is a contract manufacturer for Remington and some other American brands. I have no proof of that, but I've heard it from about three different vendors at gun shows. Sometimes we buy what we can afford. And the Rock Islands are mighty fine guns.

My little 7" X 12" Grizzly lathe comes from the SEIG factory in China. I don't think there's an American company even making mini-lathes anymore. But the Grizzly company, with showrooms, warehouses and shipping centers in three cities in the US, puts a lot of Americans to work, even if they are selling Chinese equipment. So, it's not all bad.

Like others in this thread, I avoid WalMart as much as possible. But, since they've run off so many other businesses in town, sometimes I have to go there. I hate it, but sometimes it has to be done.

I do my best to support my local gun shop. I buy all my powder and primers from them and it's cheaper than paying the hazmat fee. Most of the factory ammo I buy comes from there. And there are advantages to being a regular customer at a local shop. Last rifle I bought there, I was quoted the price and said "What's the best you can do on it?". Try that at WalMart and see where it gets you! Got a final price of forty bucks less than the tag. But the main reason for supporting our local gun stores simply that if we don't, they won't be there any longer. Sure, now and then we buy from one of the online companies. I do, we all do. But if we want our LGS to continue to be there, we have to support them. Even if it costs a few more bucks occasionally. It's worth it.

But it's not possible to buy only American products. So there's really no point in getting all wound up over it. It's better to have an American company selling a foreign product to American consumers than to have no American company at all, and no products for American consumers to buy.