Need Help With Identification (RIFLE)

[GRUMPA]

Got this from a guy that wanted to load ammo for it but both he and I have no clue what it is or the caliber it uses. So I would really appreciate the collective knowledge of board members to help me out on this please.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/162764ead52afa2c66.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/162764ead52aff1df0.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/162764ead52b042d14.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/162764ead52093a54e.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/162764ead5209b6d52.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/162764ead520a02e58.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/162764ead5259e03e4.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/162764ead525a33247.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/162764ead525a78796.jpg

The overall length of the rifle itself is 50 1/2" long and the barrel is 34". I don't have a mold that cast as big as I need but if I put my calipers to it at the end of the barrel it comes out to .465 dia. On the receiver it has stamped KJOBENHAVNS TOIHUUS 1883 (I think but the letters are very difficult to make out).

[oneokie]

It is a Remington Rolling Block or copy.

Look at these links;

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=KJOBENHAVNS+TOIHUUS&btnG=Google+Search&oq=KJOBENHAVNS+TOIHUUS&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=7219l7219l0l9922l1l1l0l0l0l0l766l766l6-1l1l0

[GRUMPA]

Thanks oneokie,
I went thru the links and sure enough that's it alright. Now I have to hunt around for ammo or see about trying to come up with something that I can make myself for it.

[oneokie]

Some more links;

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=11.7x51+ammo&btnG=Google+Search&oq=11.7x51+ammo&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=1640l8812l0l11109l12l12l0l7l0l0l781l2562l5-3.1l4l0

[Gtek]

Go looking into Swedish Remington Rolling Block, (I see crowns) they are usually the better ones found and most are better preserved. Brass/boolit will be the quest, from the pictures you scored a nice one. Gtek

[excess650]

I would do a chamber cast, but expect it to be a Danish 11.4 x 51R.

[GRUMPA]

The only time I've ever done a chamber cast is with a 2 part liquid rubber that dentists use. And that is when I worked in a machine shop. How do I do that at home? Just plug up the barrel and pour hot lead in it?

[GRUMPA]

Dang oneokie after going thru the links just on the cartridges this guy is going to go broke before he can even fire the thing. That's some pricey stuff and I don't have even half of what I need to reload it either.

[cgtreml]

The only time I've ever done a chamber cast is with a 2 part liquid rubber that dentists use. And that is when I worked in a machine shop. How do I do that at home? Just plug up the barrel and pour hot lead in it?

I've only done it a couple of times and coincidentally on rolling blocks. First I would use a product called Cerosafe. Google it or go to Midway or Brownells for more info. For best results warm the chamber before you add the Cerosafe. Its pretty easy. Also remove the extractor and plug that hole with something. You don't want that stuff running inside and making more work. LOL That is the voice of experience.

Good Luck

[oneokie]

Dang oneokie after going thru the links just on the cartridges this guy is going to go broke before he can even fire the thing. That's some pricey stuff and I don't have even half of what I need to reload it either.

Time to think about rebarreling it to a common caliber? [smilie=1:

[Kraschenbirn]

If it's an 11.7x51R Danish...and I think it is...ammo shouldn't be a problem. You can use trimmed 45-70 cases expanded to accept whatever boolit diameter your barrel needs. Once the cases are fire-formed, you're in business.

One of my shooting buddies has a Danish RB (including sword bayonet) that's in beautiful condition. His groove dia. runs just over .460 and I cast boolits from a beagled Lee 457-340-F (.463/.464 from 30/1) for him.

Bill

[GRUMPA]

I've only done it a couple of times and coincidentally on rolling blocks. First I would use a product called Cerosafe. Google it or go to Midway or Brownells for more info. For best results warm the chamber before you add the Cerosafe. Its pretty easy. Also remove the extractor and plug that hole with something. You don't want that stuff running inside and making more work. LOL That is the voice of experience.

Good Luck

I've heard of that before but never looked into it, frankly I never had a need to till now. One thing I did find is CERRO BEND ALLOY that I have left over from my machining days and think that stuff just might work. But if I remember right it swells up when it cools, its been over 20+yrs since I used it.

[midnight]

To do a chamber cast use "Cerrosafe". I think it is a Bismuth alloy and you can melt it with a double boiler. I melts at <212ºF. I prewarm the chamber area with an old hair drier to get a wrinkle-free cast. You can get ½lb ingots from Midway but it's kind of pricey now. I bought a bunch when it was $3 or $4 an ingot but it's up in the 20s now. You have to use modeling clay to form a small dam around the rim and also fill the extractor cut. Plug the barrel about ¾in past the throat and you will get a chamber cast plus the throat and a short section of the rifling. Let the "Cerrosafe " harden and drive it out to the rear after about 15min. Take your measurements at 1hr. "Cerrosafe" can be remelted and used again and again. I pays to very lightly oil the chamber before you cast. Chamber casting is a must for positively identifying old rifle calibers.

Bob

[GRUMPA]

I just might have to look a little harder into the composition of the Cerrosafe and Cerrobend, I think the 2 are almost identical but Cerrobend melts at 158deg, it has it stamped right on it.

Midnight that's some very good info thank you.

[sundog]

I do chamber casts with sulfur and graphite. Just have to be careful not to ignite the sulfur while melting it. Very lightly oil the chamber before the pour.

[13Echo]

The action is missing the extractor retaining screw (left side over the proofmark) which makes me think it may have lost its extractor.

Jerry Liles

[GRUMPA]

Now that you pointed that out the thing doesn't have the extractor. Guess a phone call to the owner is in order. Heck I wonder if one could even find parts for something this old.

[DHB]

For the extractor try http://www.wisnersinc.com/ or www.lonestarrifle.com Both should have the parts you need. Call them or send an email.
DHB
P.S. I always use lead to make chamber casts. Be sure to get a little of the rifling also. I use a cotton ball to plug the bore about a half inch in front of the throat. Good to know the true bore size. It only takes about 1 minute for the lead to solidify, then pop the cast out with a rod. Basically what Midnight said. After the chamber is cast, look in Cartridges of the World to find the exact cartridge you need. Anything can be cobbled up to make this rifle a shooter. Just a little work and time.

[Greg B.]

Years ago a neighbor had a Sharps & Hankins Navel Carbine circa 1885 that needed some repairs. I had a Dixie Gun Works catalogue that showed parts. Numrich is also another outfit that has lots of parts for old guns. Good luck.

Greg B.

[ss40_70]

if you decide to do a chamber cast , one of our sponsers roto metals , has a much better dealon chamber casting metal then midway

[GRUMPA]

Hey guys,

What in the heck do you call this thing when searching for parts? Rolling block Remington made in Denmark? KJOBENHAVNS TOIHUUS Model 1867? I literally have no clue on this.

[oneokie]

Remington Rolling Block. The large framed one. They were made in several frame sizes. Not that familiar with the frame size numbers. I am sure one of the members here can provide that information.

[JIMinPHX]

If you use Cerrosafe, don't wait too long before knocking it out of the chamber. It swells up after about half an hour & becomes impossible to dislodge not too long after that. In a pinch, you can use candle wax to do a quick cast & get a rough idea of what chamber you have.

[nanuk]

I would advise against CerroBend for chamber casting

CerroBend does expand as it cools, and may lock itself into the chamber, and you may not be able to pound it out

it was designed for forming around small parts, so you can hold them in vices/jaws/etc for machining

CerroSafe CONTRACTS as it cools for the first 1/2 hour or so, then expands back again to solidus size, then continues to change.... hence the instructions to measure at the 1 hour mark, and also to note the time of the chamber casting, as you can use tables to adjust "Now" measurements to correct for the change.

CerroBend also works well in thin wall tubing, by filling the tube where you want the bend, and then melting it out after bending, with no kinks and such

as DHB uses lead, I too have often wondered about that.... there are known shrink tables. Also, one can do an impact cast, shortly after it hardens and that would give a very accurate cast

[hiram]

http://buy.gunauction.com/10500195/danish-remington-m1867-96-rolling-block-great-boreantiqueno-ffl-req

[Pavogrande]

Regarding the use of cerrobend instead of cerrosafe - It has most of the same characteristis as cerrosafe, except the dimensions after cooling are slightly different. Only a very small difference that for practical purposes does not matter.
With both products, remove soon after it cools, they shrink for a short time - makes it easier to remove- then retiurn to original dimensions in an hour or so.
At todays price for cerrosafe, I use my old stock of cerrobend.

[texasmac]

Click on the link below for an article on chamber casts and impact impressions.
Wayne

http://www.texas-mac.com/Case_Lengths_Chamber_Casts_and_Impact_Impression.h tml

[GRUMPA]

Well at least I got as far as slugging the barrel which came out at .465 dia. I have to go into town for a ladle (90 mi round trip) but as luck would have it I have to take my daughter into town for a Dr. visit which gives me a few hours to shop. First time I've done this type of thing ever and I don't own it so I'm playing it very cautiously.

[mroliver77]

http://www.ssfirearms.com/

I got my parts from these folks.
J

[Dutchman]

KJOBENHAVNS
Copenhagen
Denmark

Center-fire or rim-fire?

[GRUMPA]

Centerfire with rimfire capabilities the hole for it is still there.

[GRUMPA]

OK folks I think I need a hand at figuring this out. I just got done doing a chamber cast on it, and was that a PITA. Never want to do that again EVER. Anyway when I Mic it the major O.D. of it at the rim area is .518 and gradually tapers to about .495 there abouts. It's almost like one continuous taper all the way to the rifling. No pronounced markings like lands the whole way to the rifling. The Bore mic's out at .465-6 as I stated before and when I throw the calipers to it, it has an inner length of 2.255 ish (from the rim to the rifling not including rim thickness).

If I hold it up to the light a bit I think I can see a forcing cone but it's rather slight, and if I SWAG it I come up with a length of just over 2.0 (not including rim thickness). Never having done this before I'm kinda wingin it along. And I don't have a Cartridges Of The World Book. So can you Guru's throw me a bone on this one please as to what it's supposed to use in the ammo dept. More than likely I'll have to see if I can make it.

[Ed in North Texas]

Hey guys,

What in the heck do you call this thing when searching for parts? Rolling block Remington made in Denmark? KJOBENHAVNS TOIHUUS Model 1867? I literally have no clue on this.

I guess this got lost in the discussion of chamber cast. It is a Model 1867 Danish Rolling Block. And a very nice one too. Been converted, as you know, from rimfire to centerfire. For reloading, your friend may be able to get by for a while with little, or no, dies for the cartridge. After fire forming the brass, a boolit cast at the correct size can be pressed into the cartridge case without any resizing or seating die. Eventually a resizing may be needed, or not. Is he planning on using Black Powder?

[GRUMPA]

As of right now I got the go ahead to just make it work at the cheapest price I can. I still am on the hunt for the extractor as my internet has had the case of the hic-ups for at least a week. Personally I would go the black powder route, as far as I know he just wants to make it work and hang it back on the wall.

He told me his father in law give it to him in the form of a lamp of all things years ago. And never shot it ever as it seems ammo in this part of the world is very scarce. Before this he had a 7.35 Carcano that he couldn't fire because he couldn't get the cartridges for it, so I made him a few which is why he's impressed with what I can do I guess. He brought it to me and said " If you like a challenge give this a try", and the knuckle head that I am said "Sure why not".

[JCherry]

Grumpa,

I checked my Cartridges of the World and it looks like what you have is 11.7X51R Danish Remington. The post by Hiram sure looks to be identical to your rifle's photos.

I checked my copy of Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions and it lists dimensions that are compatible with your measurements. It recommends making brass from ".43 Rem (BELL). Cut case to 2.1". Trim rim to 581"diam and thin to .06". F/L size, trim to length and chamfer."

The "major O.D. of it at the rim area" is listed as .513 which would fit well in you measured diameter of .518.

Bullet diameter is listed as .463, yours measured at .465. Case length is listed at 2.03.

Looks to me like you have a 11.7X51R Danish Remington.

I checked Numerich and it looks like they have a bar extractor for a Number One rolling block for $17.00 that might work for you, it was listed however as for a 45-70. They were sold out of the screw to hold it in place.

I checked Graf & Sons and they have "BERTRAM BRASS 11.7x51R DANISH BASIC 20/B" for $63.99 listed but are out of stock at the moment.


Have Fun,

JCherry

[GRUMPA]

Thanks JCherry,

It looks like I'll have to do some research on this project. I guess I'll need to invest in the Cartridges of the world book. Always saw those at gun shows but never really thought I would ever use it. Guess I was wrong with that assumption.

[itsatdm]

If it is a 11.7X 51 or a 11.7X56, this may be useful for you. http://www.militaryrifles.com/denmark/danshrem.htm
As well as this:http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-9654.html

[Ed in North Texas]

The problem, and why a chamber cast is a great idea, is that the Danes had, according to the Handbook of Cartridge Conversions, 4 different 11.7mm cartridges::groner:

11.7x41.5R, 11.7x45.5R, 11.7x51R, and 11.7x56R

Because there are differences in head diameter and rim diameter (as well as the obvious case length), there are different recommended base cases. The 11.7x45.5R is the one recommended for the .45-70 case, the others each have a different recommended base case. [smilie=b: Until you know which version of the 11.7 Danish you have, I'd recommend you not spend any money on cases.

I have no idea why there were so many different cartridges. Maybe differences in chambering (errors) have resulted in someone deciding there were different cartridges? It boggles a military mind to see so many different versions for the same basic weapon. A supply nightmare.


Ed

[Freightman]

If it's an 11.7x51R Danish...and I think it is...ammo shouldn't be a problem. You can use trimmed 45-70 cases expanded to accept whatever boolit diameter your barrel needs. Once the cases are fire-formed, you're in business.

One of my shooting buddies has a Danish RB (including sword bayonet) that's in beautiful condition. His groove dia. runs just over .460 and I cast boolits from a beagled Lee 457-340-F (.463/.464 from 30/1) for him.

Bill
I have its twin I shoot 45/70 in it all you have to do is ignore the slight bulge that it will have when you fire it. Stick with BP only pressure loads as it is a BP rifle, very accurate or at least mine is. I have a Shiloh in 45/70 that will not out shoot it and the Shiloh is excellent.
I wouldn't do or fire anything through it until I did a chamber cast period because you can't tell which cartage, ar what has been done to it the last 140+ years.

[bubba.50]

i have an extractor that could be had reasonable. it's for 45-70 so it should have plenty metal to work down to fit yer cartridge rim. buffalo arms has all the stuff needed for reloading. huntington's may also have it. luck to ya and have a good'en neighbor, bubba.

[calaloo]

Cerrobend is formulated to pour into tubing so it can be bent without buckling. It will not work for chamber casting. Cerrosafe shrinks a bit shortly after hardening making it easy to remove.

[GRUMPA]

Rest assured I did do the chamber cast, there's a story behind that but I finally got it out.
Bubba.50 that's a very nice gesture on your part and I really do appreciate the offer, right now (actually yesterday) I got an e-mail from http://www.rollingblockparts.com/ because no matter who I e-mail a question to as far as parts they all steer to to that place.

As reference to the actual case dimensions go all I can do for now is use the Lyman 47th book on the 45-70. On page 354 they have the dimensions (starting from left to right) .608 for the rim dia. (mine using calipers is .605) next they have rim thickness at .065 (mine using calipers is .065-.068) My depth mic's don't have clearance for a more accurate reading. Next is the diameter of the case next to the flange at .505 (chamber cast mic's at .517-.518). Then it's the length of the brass at 2.105, according to my chamber cast mine is 2.01. And my bore dia is .465.

From all indications I think I can use the 45-70 as a starting point to fire form the cases. I have a post in the WTB section on some but so far no nibbles.

As far as what boolit to use I've been reading on this for days and by most accounts the LEE 459-405HB seems to be favored. Again that's in the WTB area and no nibbles.

I found the Cartridges Of The World pdf file on the net (8th edition) but with my net speed it would have taken me somewhere around 10-12 hrs to download and gave that up real quick.
So far my searches for actual printed data on the net as far as actual dimensions go is coming up short, but I haven't devoted a lot of time for that. I've been more focused on the parts I need right now.

[itsatdm]

I can give you some more dimentions, but no guarantee of their correctness.

11.7mm Cartridge: Rim dia .579, Base dia above the rim .514, case length 2.01, cartridge length 2.45

I imagine the most important are the rim and base dia of a 45.70. I have some resized 45-70 with rim@ .603 and base dia. @.509

348 cartridges by comparison are .610 and .535 though mine are reduced to a base of .517 These are RP brass, fire formed and partially resized, one for a Trapdoor 45-70 and the other for a Spanish Refermando rolling block . Buffalo Arms has brass for your gun, based on the 348, but it is expensive as it has been swaged down and a lathe from the look of the cartridges I have for my Roller.

Hope I did not cloud the issue too much.

[Ed in North Texas]

For what it might be worth to you, and anyone else. From "Cartridge Conversions":

1. 11.7x41.5R Length 1.63" Head Diameter .512" Rim Diameter .574

2. 11.7x45.5R 1.79 .504 .576

3. 11.7x51R 2.01 .514 .579

4. 11.7x56R 2.20 .513 .580

Hope the "formatting" doesn't get screwed up. OF COURSE IT DID - but you can follow it anyway.

Ed

[GRUMPA]

Well as luck would have it the owner produced 2 boxes of empty 45-70 cases. Out of the 2 boxes 10 were loaded and he paid $10 for them.

This morning I had a bit of an issue trimming a case (the one and only so far) because all I have is an old RCBS and a Forster trimmer and neither will readily accept the 45-70 case head. I ended up unscrewing the Forester collet and just inserting the case in (mouth first) and kind of wedging it in there by screwing the collet holder with collet back in.

The cutter part of the trimmer just barely made the cut with just a smidge that it didn't cut leaving a sort of lip on the case but I got it to 2.01 no problem and de-burred by hand.

I have a 1/2" drill press and filed down the head of the case to .592 and it fits in there real well, although I just may take it down just a bit more but at this point I don't know yet.

I don't know what it's called but the part you close just after putting in the case closed better after I lapped the face and took it down about .002-.003. The Face (were the primer is) was concaved a bit and all I did was just lap it flat.

Haven't ordered that parts yet but depending on how much rain I get tomorrow will determine if I can get to the mail box to send it out (I'm very rural folks).

As far as the dimensions that Ed in Texas wrote as well as itsatdm were very helpful and I sure do appreciate that guys, with my prehistoric net speed it saved me lots of time.

I have yet to get a 45-70 die set yet as well as the mold because the one I'm really after seems they are out of them, I just may go with the PB type instead of the HB. But I'll keep this up to date the best I can for the future in case someone else stumbles across one of these rifles.

[Dutchman]

This is the Danish museum online:

http://www.vaabenhistoriskselskab.dk/arma-dania/_ad_patroner_list.php

The original m/1867 cartridge (patrone) was 11x41.5mm. That's what they call it.
The m/1867/96 cartridge was 11x51mm.

To see all the different models and variations:
http://www.vaabenhistoriskselskab.dk/arma-dania/_ad_gevar_list.php

Your rifle has the LONG SLIDE rear sight ladder... which makes it the m/1867-96 rifle...

Bagladeriffe = breech loader rifle

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Denmark/DanshRem.htm

Google Translate isn't perfect....

year 1896
Designation Bagladeriffel 1867/96
Model Designation B.R. 1867/96 type
Caliber 11.35 mm. with central ignition
Shots Magazine Single Shot
Skudkadance
Phased Bagladeriffel 1867/96 was decommissioned in late 1940 and replaced by the carbine the 1889th
constructor Remington patent
Produces rifle factory in Copenhagen
Mfr Name
Number Indkobt 22,600 Danish-made guns were rebuilt into BR 1867/96 + individual amr. produced.
Serial numbers Danish-made guns are numbered from 40,001 to 71,551. American with new pipes (barrels) from 71552-71611
Weight 4.1 kg.
Length Height 128 cm.
Pibelangde 90 cm. 5-right-wing (5 groove) rifle times with an increase of 71 cm.
Skaeftemateriale (stock material) Walnut
Labelling (markings) The US-built M.1867 is stamped on the lock chair magazine: "REMINGTON Ilion NY USA PAT MAY 3D November 16TH 1864 April 17th 1866."

Danish-made is the same location stamped "Kjøbenhavn TØIHUUS" followed by manufacturing year.

At lock the chair's left hand is placed the royal name digit with a crown and below "M-1867".

All bagladerifler (breech loading rifle) 1867/96 is marked with a crown on top of the pipe (barrel) between the needle foot and locks the chair.
Description Conversion of Bagladeriffel of model 1867 for central ignition.

Only Danish-made guns were converted to cartridge 1867/96, as the U.S. pipe (barrel) was not sufficiently hardened to the hard-charged cartridge. A few of the US-made guns were mounted, however, a Danish pipe (barrel) and was subsequently rebuilt into BR (breechloading rifle) 1867/96. The American guns with Danish pipe (barrel) got serial numbers from 71552-71611.

The other US-made guns were instead converted to Bagladeriffel 1867/97 for use in a central lit cartridge with less charge.
************************************************** **********************

I'd suggest you be very careful in deciding what caliber this rifle is... I'd take copious measurements and re-check them a couple times. The bore is large enough that you can measure land and groove with dial calipers at the muzzle. Do it and re-check several times.

Dutch