Want to start loading my own slugs

[HDS]

I've been looking for an excuse to cast more and shooting slugs has always been a fun activity, but oh so costly.

I have done some online research, and it seems you can load slugs and shot real easily actually, with just hand tools or a cheap kit, no press required. That's exactly what I am looking for. Considering one of those Lee hand kits (that they stopped making but you can find online). They seem to be made to do a star crimp, but I hear a roll crimp is the way you want to go, I've seen some makers ( Ballistic Products) that have a kit made to be put on a hand drill and also some real hand turned antiques.

I'm also wondering about molds, who makes them and what type of slugs are out there. I know of Lee and they got a 7/8 and 1oz slug mold, it seems like a good place to start . but I figured I should ask around first. They have a strange base, what's that about?

Lyman seems to have some molds as well, but I thought they where too expensive. This made me go see if we've have some slug group buys earlier on but I could not find any. I sure wouldn't mind spending that kind money if there was a Mihec brass mold we where talking about, maybe 2-cavity even, maybe a Cramer style... Hmmm perhaps a good idea for a new group buy sometime [smilie=1:


Also anyone shooting black powder slugs? That's been something I'd like to try out some day, how different is the reloading process from using smokeless, if at all?

[UNIQUEDOT]

The Lee loaders were for roll or fold crimping, but they were originally designed for paper hulls and they don't resize. When ammunition companies started phasing out paper hulls Lee started making the nylon crimp starters as an accessory so one could load plastic hulls and eventually started offering kits including them.

Only molds i have used are Lee and Lyman and they both work well. The base on the Lee is designed that way so that upon firing the wad wedges into the base and the rib in the base allows the wad to lock to the slug transferring positive rotation when used in a rifled barrel.

If using a smoothbore barrel most people put a nitro card in the bottom of the shotcup when using the Lee slug. As far as blackpowder slugs go... well you need full bore slugs and nitro and fiber cushion wads and generally need to roll crimp in order to get a useful charge of powder into the hull. You can use sabot slugs and blackpowder by cutting the cup off a modern wad and utilizing it by building up a gas seal and cushion column. I don't load them anymore, but played with them years ago.

Best advise is to forget about the Lee loader and start with a load all at the very least.

[HDS]

I really wanted to do this with hand tools as I don't have the space for a bunch of other stuff. I didn't know you had to size shot shells either. The videos I've seen did not mention that (the guy also showed how to make his own tools for reloading even), albeit they where for black powder reloads.

[Junior1942]

Read the last 1/2 of this article: http://www.castbullet.com/misc/stevens2.htm

(1) My Lee Whackit Loader worked just fine; and (2) every load I tried with the Lee 1 oz slug worked just fine, too.

Get some WAA12R red wads, some once fired AAHS hulls, some 1/8" nitro wads, and start shooting good groups. At least I did through my open choke, cut-off barrel. The Lee Whackit Loader crimps once fired plastic hulls perfectly. However, it crimps new hulls poorly at best.

Even non-crimped 1 oz Lee slug loads worked well for me. I bought some new primed Fiocchi hulls which, alas, wouldn't Whackit crimp well, so I shot the Lee 1 oz slug with them and left the mouth of the new hulls open. That worked great! However, I was afraid to load them for hunting due to nothing but a tight fit holding the slug/red wad inside the hull.

Glue won't hold on an HDPE hull, so I might try beeswax around the edge of the slug one of these days. However, I might not because crimped AAHS hulls work perfectly.

[HDS]

I was just thinking I would use my own leftover S&B hulls, I have 1500 factory trap rounds I figured I could reuse a bunch of, I am quite sold on the roll crimp tool as well, it really seems to be the best solution.

[UNIQUEDOT]

HDS, if you use the shells in the same gun they were fired in you don't have to resize them. Those S&B hulls are problematic hulls. The only American manufactured wad that fits them is the AA12r and they are discontinued, but claybuster makes a clone. They also tend to rechamber with difficulty even in the same gun they were originally fired in and if resizing them with a loading press they require a lot of force i assume this is because of the tall cup type base wad the things have in them combined with the mid brass plated steel bases as no other steel base gives me problems. A mec 600 or a load all will not resize them properly and i have to use a mec sizemaster or a mec stand alone collet resizer for them. Just check and see if they will chamber in your gun before you decide to load them without a way to resize them.

[HDS]

I did have ejection issues with S&B slugs and buckshot in my 870, but the trap and skeet rounds have been quite problem free in both the 870 and Benelli. I am not sure what wads I have access to here either, I did not think there would be an issue either. Seems the 12ga world is not very standardized.

[snuffy]

I was just thinking I would use my own leftover S&B hulls, I have 1500 factory trap rounds I figured I could reuse a bunch of, I am quite sold on the roll crimp tool as well, it really seems to be the best solution.

Roll crimpers MUST be used on new-unfired hulls. You cannot roll crimp a fired shell that has been crimped with either a 6 or 8 star crimp. What you CAN do is cut the crimp off a 3 inch shell to be used like a 2-¾ slug load, then roll crimp that. Using a hand drill is not the best idea, IF you can keep it perfectly straight and can apply the needed down force, it will work.

Much better to use a drill press, and the BP hull vise like this;

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA170068.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PA170069.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PB010088.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PB010089.JPG

Samples of roll crimps done on the above equipment. That's the BP sabot wad,(now discontinued, redesigned), and a lee 440-.501 bullet made from a reamed out mold to cast at .510.


The lee "key" slug is made like that to prevent the cushion wad under it from being shoved up into the otherwise hollow base of a foster type hollow base slug. And as uniquedot said to give positive rotation if fired in a rifled barrel.

The lyman sabot slug is very heavy, 538 gr. SO it kicks hard even at moderate loads.

The lyman foster type hollow base mold is also available, but my experience with it was far from good. I spent most of one summer 30 years ago, around 50 combinations, with not one load that was even close to factory slug loads. I've had some luck with the sabot, but didn't pursue it much.

[tommygirlMT]

Your best bett is a simple round ball that fills your bore plus a smidgen to give it just a bit of squeeze --- I see you are in europe --- measure the inside diameter of you guns barrel at the muzzle with the choke size you intend to use if it has interchange tubes --- if you have more then one gun you want to shoot the slugs from then measure them all --- you want a ball size that is anywhere from .002 to .01 inches bigger then that measurement --- if you have more then one gun you want to shoot slugs out of try to figure out what ball size it is that will be big enough for all of them but not too big for any of them --- that may not be possible with just one ball size since you have about a .008 inch wide size range you need to try to hit --- yes you can always use a ball size that is technically too small but accuracy will suffer --- all this is assuming your going to cast the balls out of pure lead with just a little bit of tin thrown in --- just enough to make casting easy --- and harden up ball just enough so it dont "slump" under firing load --- if you are going to cast of harder for your balls then the acceptable size range narrows from the top side downward depending on how hard you go since harder ball takes less squeeze --- a little bit of squeeze necessary for accuracy unless you use "donut wads" but they extra time and trouble to make from regular nitro cards and you have to build or have built for you a drilling jig

Basically Im thinking --- Jeff Tanner in euro just like you and if you figure out ball size you need then you call him down in Brit and tell him what size ball you need and he make mold to exactly the size you need and send it to you --- and you end up with a quality custom mold at exactly the ball size you need for less then a Lyman ball mold will cost you that only comes in two sizes in the general size range you will be looking at (.715 and .735 inches)

Loading big barrel diameter size ball slugs for shotguns is quick and easy --- they cast real easy and they load easy --- just powder and a stack of card wads --- and then the ball and crimp and call it good --- and they are far more accurate then most people realize if you get the size right to fit YOUR gun

Also --- best roll crimp head is the one sold through precisionreloading.com --- the metal one that is their own brand name --- better and slightly cheaper then the precision reloading one you were looking at --- state side a Lee load all 2 is cheaper and a better choice then trying to find one of the old wacker Lee loaders on flee-bay --- just use it to remove old primer --- size the head --- and reprime --- weigh your powder with scale instead of using its powder bushings --- and its ram work good to press in the card wads --- and yes you can load big barrel size ball slugs with true black real easy --- only thing that changes is powder and put a teaspoon of "bore butter" type lube under the ball to fill the empty space around the edges of the bottom of the ball that the curature of the ball makes when it sits on top of the hard flat surface of the card wads underneath it --- acts just like a "lube cookie" in a BPCR load and spreads lube down the bore to keep the fowling soft

If you insist on doing all by hand --- you can take a board and use it to make sort of a loading platform --- take a 7/8 wood auger bit (or whatever equivalent metric size makes the hole drilled in the wood a semi-tight slip fit for the base (rim diameter) of the 12 shells) and drill two holes a little bit apart from each other half way through the thickness of the wood block --- then take one of the holes and take a smaller size 3/8 (or equivalent metric) drill bit and drill its center out all the way through --- that is your depriming spot --- then cut a metal disk from some fairly thick steel roof flashing material or similar that is just a little bit too big and a tight fit in the other hole and use a length of dowel or such and a hammer to sucurely lodge it in the bottom of that hole --- that is your priming station --- then find yourself a big long nail --- "pole barn nail" is what they are sold over here and a square drive ratchet extension rod --- 3/8 drive size is best

To use the block take your empty shells and place it in the depriming spot --- take the big nail and a hammer and use it to punch the old primer out --- it will drop into the smaller diameter hole drilled all the way through the block and you just lift the block off the bench you are working on and brush it off the side of the bench and into the garbage --- then you take a fresh new primer and set it standing up in the middle of the other hole in the board with the metal disk base and then set the deprimed hull on top of it --- then take the ratchet extension and put it inside the hole with the larger female end down in the hole so the square drive socket gives clearance over the primer hole and tap on the mail tip of the extension with the hammer to push the hull down onto the primer and seat the new primer in the hull --- from there you weigh out your powder charge and dump it in the hull and they you put in the card wads and tap them down tight with the ratchet extension and hammer again --- then you put in the ball (teaspoon of bore butter before the ball if it is a true black load) and push it down tight and then you take a hand drill and the roll crimp head and roll crimp the load and you are done

Now --- all that assumes you dont need to resize the metal head of the hull and it will chamber in your gun without resizing --- if that aint so and it does need to be resized then an extra step is involved in the process --- you need a way to crimp down that metal head base ring --- you can take a cheap pair of regular bull nose pliers and grind out the course teeth in the back of the jaws and round them out to be just right to fit around the base brass and just slightly squeeze it down --- less grinding work is need if you find a set of ring crimp pliers for 1/2 "pex" tubing size crimp rings but you will still need to grind a little or better yet use a reamer from the side to expand the diameter of the ring in the jaws --- either way how you use such a tool to size down the brass head on a 12 shell is to put it in the jaws and give it a tight squeeze and then rotate the shell 90 degrees and squeeze again --- if it is a high brass shell that has higher brass then the width of your plier type squeeze down tool then you will need to do it twice once at the base of the brass head just above the rim and again higher up --- its crude but it works --- I used to do something very similar with 8 gauge shells before I finally had some custom specialized sizing dies made for them --- since no one that I know of makes regular off the shelf sizing dies for the 8 size --- or a loading machine for it either --- so I was loading the 8 size with a wood block loading set-up and a big set of ground out pliers to size down the brass head as I describe for quite a while

[UNIQUEDOT]

I did have ejection issues with S&B slugs and buckshot in my 870, but the trap and skeet rounds have been quite problem free in both the 870 and Benelli. I am not sure what wads I have access to here either, I did not think there would be an issue either. Seems the 12ga world is not very standardized.

The trap and skeet rounds may utilize a different hull. My experience with the hulls came from purchasing two cases of heavy and standard field loads and a few slugs and buck as well. There are European wads that were designed for these hulls and actually work better than the aa12r's. Just look down inside the hulls and if they have an unusually high basewad then they are like the ones i have and you will need a short wad designed for a straight wall hull.

I cut open some of the factory rounds to see what type of wad was used and as i recall it was a gualandi wad, but i was also surprised to see that the powder charges were not compressed. The powder was below the lips of the base wad and the wad sits on top of the basewad.

I worked up some loads using blue dot for heavy field loads and red dot for lighter loads all compressed of course and i tried a couple other powders with decent results, but had to use the red winchester wads and cork fillers in the cup where necessary, but if you use the correct euro wad for your application you won't have any problems. BTW that basewad is designed the way it is to get the pressure needed with lighter charges of powder. Winchester has done something similar with their trash hulls.

[missionary5155]

Good m orning
I use a Lee "hammer" 12 guage Loader here. Mainly with round ball loading (far easier to cast). An 85 grain load of 2F is about the standard low power load. Kick that up to 100 grains and you realy have a good thumper. 125 grains will probably Smash any critter this side of our rock. I loaded to some more but the pain was getting beyond sound reason in my Mossy. Plastic hulls will only tolerate maybe 3 loadings with BP before they burn through. 2 loadings is all I found Win. hulls would hold.
Mike in Peru

[HDS]

This looks like an interesting slug design:
http://i42.tinypic.com/2woglc1.jpg

[HDS]

Your best bett is a simple round ball that fills your bore plus a smidgen to give it just a bit of squeeze --- I see you are in europe --- measure the inside diameter of you guns barrel at the muzzle with the choke size you intend to use if it has interchange tubes --- if you have more then one gun you want to shoot the slugs from then measure them all --- you want a ball size that is anywhere from .002 to .01 inches bigger then that measurement ---

Hmmm I had been given the impression you wanted a slug that was smaller than the bore diameter? Is it different because it's a round ball? Couldn't it be dangerous to have an oversize ball in a shotgun?

I have to say it's a bit confusing, the lee slugs seems like they are meant not to contact the bore at all but are carried in the cup, some other design like the brennekes seem to have some contact with the bore though.

Edit: Oh and a more general question, what about using traditional fiber wads instead of the plastic cups for slugs, any pros / cons there?

[HDS]

Oh and I've read about case reconditioning tools, I've heard some say they use them to get once shot star crimped hulls to work with a roll crimp tool. Anyone done anything similar?

Also found this:
http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_105_19&products_id=117&osCsid=077e86c333de4f06667ad60db49b9aa6

Antique style manual roll crimper except modern manufacture.

[snuffy]

Here's a round ball load I came up with. That's a lee .690 round ball that loads inside a standard trap wad.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PC160106.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/PC160105.JPG

That's a 20 ga. hard card wad that sits inside the shot cup, under the ball, to re-enforce the bottom of the shotcup. I never even shot these, been sitting around here for a couple of years, gotta getaroundtoit. The .690 ball is sub-bore diameter so it CAN sit inside a plastic wad. If you shoot that load in a full choke, the ball can sink into the plastic wad fingers. Better to mold plastic than a .729 solid lead ball.

That slug/wad combo you have pictured is the old activ load. It was a very accurate slug, a shame that activ went tit$ up.

The roll crimper you linked to is made for roll crimping paper hulls. Modern plastic shells need heat to properly roll crimp. The heat comes from friction, the friction comes from the little bumps at the bottom of the groove in the roll crimper. The hull re-conditioning tool you refer to is made by ballistic products, called the spin doctor. It will NOT re-form a star crimp to be able to roll crimp it.

The shells in my pics are made by Fiocchi, BP sells them primed with the fiocchi 616 primer in them. These are the best bet for roll crimping slug loads. They can also be loaded and crimped with a 6 point crimp, IF you have a press that has a good crimp starter to form the crimp deeply before final crimp. That leaves out the older lee whack-a-mole loader. Some of the old lees had a plastic crimp forming die, you MIGHT get away with that.

You can "shade tree" load with minimal equipment, but your results will also be shade tree accuracy.* Best to get at least a mec 600 jr. press. Forget that *** lee load-all, it isn't up to the task at hand.

[HDS]

I saw a guy use one of those manual types on plastic hulls so I think they work just fine for plastic hulls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhT2l6808v4

There was someone who roll crimped star crimped shells after reconditioning them I dunno what tool he used but I thought it was the Spin Doctor.

Edit: This guy just cuts off a bit of the star crimp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLnoQFoRWZE

Oh and I bought two packs of S&B "practical slug" today, opened up to look at it, and it looks familiar in design:
http://i39.tinypic.com/krt61.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/el2nns.jpg

[UNIQUEDOT]

I saw a guy use one of those manual types on plastic hulls so I think they work just fine for plastic hulls:


They do work and i have used them for years, but if someone is serious about his loads he needs a press. When using cardboard, felt, and cork wads one needs wad pressure which is applied using a bathroom scale and the rammer of the lee loader. Wad pressure is not as important with modern wads, but the crimp is as that is where wad pressure is applied when using collapsible type plastic wads (there are exceptions) and the lee loader lacks in this department when it comes to plastic shells. And as stated each load needs to be kept with the gun it was originally fired in.

Years ago i loaded up some shells with the lee loader and put them with the wrong gun and when it came time for the hunt i just grabbed the gun and shells and when i got to the woods not a one of the shells would chamber. I still use a lee loader for roll crimping shells as wells as fold crimped loads, but it's more of a just for fun thing than anything else.

[HDS]

Hmmm, about the round balls, some people say .680 s a better size than .690, apparently the larger size can shear of the sides of shotcups sometimes? Maybe one could just cut down the sides of the wad?

Also if you go with a bore size ball, does it matter if your choke is a screw in cylinder or a fixed choke cylinder? Just wondering if the screw in version might be considered weaker or something?

[UNIQUEDOT]

Hmmm, about the round balls, some people say .680 s a better size than .690, apparently the larger size can shear of the sides of shotcups sometimes? Maybe one could just cut down the sides of the wad?

Also if you go with a bore size ball, does it matter if your choke is a screw in cylinder or a fixed choke cylinder? Just wondering if the screw in version might be considered weaker or something?

The only problems i encountered with wad petal shearing when loading .690's was when i used them in muzzleloaders with plastic shotcups. You want a round ball/wad combo to fit the bore as closely as possible or just use a full bore ball. I have never had problems with balls or slugs when used in guns with an interchangeable choke nor should any problems arise when using them with any modern shotgun. Just be sure the tubes threads are lubricated before shoving balls or slugs through it as it can stick and be difficult or next to impossible to remove.

[HDS]

Thanks for the answers. Is there any accuracy to be gained from shooting a full bore ball vs. one in a shot cup? And what about leading, could that be an issue?

Still maybe a .690 is safest, I like to keep an IC choke on most of the time, or sometimes a mod choke, rarely go with the full cylinder.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Is there any accuracy to be gained from shooting a full bore ball vs. one in a shot cup? And what about leading, could that be an issue?


Not that i could tell in a smooth bore barrel, but some say accuracy is improved with a full bore ball. Leading is never an issue with a smooth bore barrel as long as it's not pitted as the leading will come right out with a few passes of a bristle brush. I don't recall having any problems with leading around the choke area either when using a choke tube barrel, but i seldom shoot a ball or slug through that type of barrel anymore.

[JIMinPHX]

Using a hand drill is not the best idea, IF you can keep it perfectly straight and can apply the needed down force, it will work.

Much better to use a drill press, and the BP hull vise

I agree that is the best way. A second best way is to just lay a piece of rubber mat down on the table under the drill press chuck. I've found that I get enough friction off the rubber to keep the shell from spinning if I apply moderate pressure, holding the shell by hand.

[TRG3]

I picked up an inexpensive drill press for $40 at Harbor Freight and roll crimp slugs. I use the same load in new 12 gauge Fiocchi 2 3/4" or 3" hulls, utilizing fiber wads to take up any extra space in the 3" hulls. In my H&R USH, I've found the following load works for me, giving 3" groups at 50 yards:

34 grains of Herco
overpowder card
Federal S4 wad with petals snipped back to the curve the slug
Lee Key Drive slug with 1/8" 20 gauge hard wad below the slug
roll crimp

I've used this same load utilizing 2 3/4" Federal Gold Metal fired hulls and fold crimped.

Using this same load in fired Winchester AA hulls and Winchester AA wads with a fold crimp, I've gotten the same size groups but impacted 3-4" lower.

[TRG3]

Oh yeah...I forgot to add that when roll crimping, I use a Q-tip to apply a very slight amount of WD-40 to the outside rim of the hull area to be roll crimped. I just hand-hold the hull while roll crimping, eye-balling it to be sure that it's straight/square while the roll crimper just touches the hull and spins 4-5 seconds to heat/soften that area, then start down with the roll crimp, stopping when I feel resistance. After roll crimping a couple of shell, you'll get the feel of when to stop. Mine look as good as the store bought ones.

[HDS]

Sorry to bring this old topic back, but I havent yet started loading any slugs or shot shells, got put on hold for other things. Been looking and researching and I have started leaning towards a fullbore foster style slug as the best solution here. But I haven't seen such a mold anywhere. I found an online auction that sold these, I sure wish I had the mold that made these beauties:

http://i49.tinypic.com/nnr5mr.jpg

Anyone know where such a mold could be found, or any custom mold makers that make something like this? It would be nice to have a custom mold, I could slug my bore and get an exact fit then.

Alternatively I might go for a full bore round ball.

Edit: Found this just now, looks superb! But the price is firmly outside my price range:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=58459