Set me straight on .38 and .357

[Tango2020]

I am starting to cast for a S&W model 19 .357 which I have bought .38 brass for the task. I'm casting 158gr swc which I have seen many love with 5 gr of unique.

I tested some at .5 gr and they shot well but were extremely dirty as for un-burnt powder residue.

I have learned that with unique it gets cleaner at higher pressures which tends to make me want to start working the pressure up.

My Question :.38 data suggest 4.1 to 5 gr of unique (working from memory)
.357 data suggest 5 to 6 gr of unique

I know a .38 case is shorter than a .357 but can I work slightly above the 5 gr range due to the fact that I am shooting them in a .357 mag.

I know that there is the obvious danger of one of the HOT .38 rounds getting in a weaker .38 pistol however am I safe to work up a little with my .357?

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Yes you can go up a bit more as some +P loads say 5.5 and others go a few tenths higher.
38 Special brass is not that weak. Has been used for long .360 bullets in caliber 357 mag revolvers very succesfully without cases falling apart.
Problem is Unique... it gets pressure sensitive at high pressures. Sometimes without much warning you add that one more tenth of a grain and there is a horrendous pressure spike. A S&W #19 is a good revolver.. but they will come apart.
If you want to get into high velocities with 38 Special brass get yourself a pound of 2400 or similar types and you can march up near .357 mag velocities.
Mike in Peru

[Tango2020]

Cool. Thanks for the reply mike.

[918v]

You can also adjust crimp. You'll get better combustion that way. But don't overdo it, because you'll buckle the case walls away from the bullet and actually lose case tension.

[badbob454]

try aa #9 powder burns clean too

[geargnasher]

If you want clean target ammo, it's very tough to beat a .38 Special book max charge of Bullseye or Clays when shooting .38 brass in a .357. If you want more velocity, try the 2400 or AA#9 as has been suggested (I only have tried 2400 in this application), but keep in mind that unless you approach .357 magnum pressures the 2400 will be ten times as dirty as Unique.

What you DO NOT want to do is use .357 Magnum loading data directly when using .38 Special brass in gun chambered for .357 Magnum. This is due to the smaller .38 case capacity, which will raise pressures quite a bit in this instance compared to the same charge of powder in a .357 case.

Gear

[303Guy]

I used to make 357 cartridges using 38 brass. The trick is over-all length. Some boolits are designed with two crimp grooves for the purpose. I used to seat to the lube groove. Have you thought of using Trail Boss. Another potential low pressure powder is Li'Gun. I have only used it in a hornet so I don't have any experience there. I used a powder similar to H4227.

[ku4hx]

You can certainly load and shoot "hot" .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum revolver.

How safe you are depends on how careful you are, the accuracy of your charge weight, the consistency of you're powder measuring and etc. And for that matter how well you label the hotter rounds and keep them away from unsuspecting shooting friends and family.

It's just never a good practice to load a case at a greater max power level than called for by the case head stamp.

[atr]

you can also get a cleaner burn if you use magnum primers with your unique load....just remember that with magnum primers the pressures will also go up so start your powder charge on the low side and work up slowly.....
I use magnum primers with Unique and its very clean burning

[Bret4207]

Your burn and it's residue is all part of your dynamic boolit fit too. Crimp and primers have been mentioned as ways to alter the powder residue. Those are good ideas. So is boolit size, seating depth and alloy. You can do a lot just playing around with those items before switching to a different powder.

I've never had any issues with Unique leaving what I considered problem amounts of residue. 5-5.5 grs in 38 brass using 150-165gr boolits has always worked well for me.

[Maven]

"Try AA #9 powder burns clean too." .... badbobgerman

Tango2020, Badbob is correct, AA #9 does burn cleanly, at least in the .357Mag. cases. However, you can't reduce charges by much in those same cases as you can with Bullseye, Clays, or Unique. I.e., the last named powders allow greater flexiblity in both .38Spl. and .357Mag. cases.

[3006guns]

I'm not familiar with Clays, but I can speak on behalf of Bullseye......first powder I ever used in a .38 special. The load was 2.8 grs (target load) and the barrel was clean. I thought this was normal until I shot a friend's Unique loads and was horrified at the junk in the barrel, so I swore that Unique was off my list. It's been years now and I've learned more about burning characteristics, so Unique has it's place on my bench.

[Rocky Raab]

Unique is a very useful and flexible propellant, but it isn't perfect. One of its minor faults is burning dirty at reduced pressures. You can either simply accept that or change to a different powder for that kind of load. Generally speaking, a faster powder is designed to burn best at lower pressure. Also, most newer powders are designed to burn cleaner than Alliant's century-old brands.

I have to comment about magnum primers. Using them to "correct" dirty burning is unwise. At the same charge weight, switching to a magnum primer can increase peak pressure by as much as 10,000 psi -- alarming in a round designed for a maximum of about 14,000 psi to begin with! Because it is such a brief pressure spike, you may not see any added velocity and thus assume that things are fine, but they are not. If you reduce charge weight to compensate, you back even farther from that powder's best burn pressure and can see even more unburnt powder as a result.

No. If "dirty" burning bothers you, the correct remedy is to increase the charge a bit OR switch to a faster powder to keep within a velocity range. (Frankly, shooting cast bullets means the gun is going to be dirty anyway, so the whole issue is a bit moot.)

[gwpercle]

Tango , My load that iI have used for years in both S & W model 64 ( .38 spcl. ) and S & W model 19, Ruger Blackhawk ( 357 mag. ) has been 5.2 grs. unique with 158 gr. or lighter cast boolits. Which I generally pour from wheelweights , loaded into 38 spcl. cases. Shoting this load in 357 chambers has done no harm to the chambers like some claim. This is a max 38 load according to Lyman C. B. Handbook but My Speer number 8 manual shows a 158 gr. cast boolit with 6 grs of Unique! So I have found the 5.2 gr. unique to be a good compromise . The higer pressure causes cleaner burning and by loading in 38 spcl. case there is less air space in the case . And I can shoot them in both 38 & 357 revolvers. For lthese loads I use semi-wadcutter boolits . For light target loads use a full wadcutter bullet and bulleseye powder- unique is not the best for light loads I've tried but never had much success. The 5.2 gr. Unique load will not prematurely wear out a model 19 Smith and should work for you as it has for me.

[ColColt]

Unique use to be my "go to" powder for the 45 Colt and 45 ACP. I have found better powders for the 38/357 group. Revolvers and techniques will vary but in my case I've found Universal and 231 to be superb target powders with the 158 gr LSWC. You may want to look into those and try them. There is data online by Hodgdon and in the various current reloading manuals. A load of 5 gr of Universal has given me superb groups as has 4.5 gr of 231. These are considered +P loads but, I would think any modern 38 Special revolver could handle it...for sure if shot in a 357.

[918v]

Also, try seating deeper in the case and crimp over the shoulder of the front driving band. This will raise pressures and improve combustion.

[Tango2020]

Lots of good ideas there. Thanks guys. I was not putting much crimp on the round which may have reduced my pressure so that is where I'll start with the 5.0 gr loads before increasing charge or changing powder.
If I can't get satisfaction from the suggested changes I'll try to change powder but I'm trying to stay with Unique for my pistols. Buy in bulk and versatile and burns clean in my .40 but I know it is a higher pressure cartridge though.

Thanks again.

[Cherokee]

I use 231 for my 38 special loads, not going to +P levels, and it is clean for me with Lyman 358477 seated to the crimp groove & crimped. WST also works and is clean. For +P or more I use 357 cases to keep from using them in my 38 Special guns.

[MT Gianni]

One risk of going higher pressures in the 38 is that the warm 38's may be used at some point in a small frame 38 special. You may not own one but eventually a friend of your might. I like to think that cartridges always get put where they should go but realize they may not. It is something to consider.

[williamwaco]

There is lots of good advice here and some that is not so good.

6 decades of Loading the .38 special has taught me several things, one being: DO NOT EXCEED 5.0 GRAINS OF UNIQUE WITH A 158/160 GRAIN BULLET.

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should.

Sooner or later, some time, somewhere, when you least expect it, one of those hot .38 loads is going to find its way into an inappropriate revolver.


I wonder . . .

Will that revolver be in the hand of your son, or daughter?



. . .

[Tango2020]

William seems to know how to make a point. I will keep that in mind.

[Lizard333]

Unique use to be my "go to" powder for the 45 Colt and 45 ACP. I have found better powders for the 38/357 group. Revolvers and techniques will vary but in my case I've found Universal and 231 to be superb target powders with the 158 gr LSWC. You may want to look into those and try them. There is data online by Hodgdon and in the various current reloading manuals. A load of 5 gr of Universal has given me superb groups as has 4.5 gr of 231. These are considered +P loads but, I would think any modern 38 Special revolver could handle it...for sure if shot in a 357.

++++1 on this! I love this load for my revolvers. The 231 burns clean as well. Remember, if you can't find Win 231 you can substitue HP-38, as they are the exact same powder, different name.

[303Guy]

My idea of using 38special cases for 357 loads was to make 357 cartridges. These had the same OACL as the 357 so they could not chamber in a small framed 38 special. The guy I did the loading for had a 38special revolver and a 357 magnum carbine. They were not particularly hot loads anyway.

[35isit]

While I only load .357 magnum pressure loads in magnum cases. They are for a T C Contender. My wife and children know if I loaded .357 cases they are for my Contenders only. They will be hard on a K frame or similar sized revolver. I have never shot a reloaded .357 magnum in my Model 19 in the years I've owned it. Only a few factory .38 spl +P and reloaded .38spls. That's why I only load .38 spl loads in .38 cases.

[azrednek]

Sooner or later, some time, somewhere, when you least expect it, one of those hot .38 loads is going to find its way into an inappropriate revolver.


I wonder . . .

Will that revolver be in the hand of your son, or daughter?



. . .

Over the years I've seen two blown up 38's at gunshows being sold for parts. Both sellers claimed they shot somebody else's 38 loads. One seller claimed he got it after his brother died, he inherited all his guns, ammo and reloading equipment.

[Ben]

One risk of going higher pressures in the 38 is that the warm 38's may be used at some point in a small frame 38 special. You may not own one but eventually a friend of your might. I like to think that cartridges always get put where they should go but realize they may not. It is something to consider.

I mentioned that kind of thing here recently and got accused of " playing the safety card ".
I'm in agreement with you. If it isn't safe, count me out ! !

[cajun shooter]

This argument has been going on since I first started loading with my Lee Loader in 1968 . If you are of a curious mind set and shoot hot loads then do it with the proper guns.
I have went to 5 S&W Schools while in LEO. I have been to both revolver and semi-auto schools. The 38 special and some 357 magnums are built on what is called a K frame( small 38's are J frames). The K frame includes such guns as the 357 combat masterpiece, models 64,65,66, This is not complete but to give you a idea. Any of the 6o numbers pass 60 itself are K frame guns. The 60 is a J frame. These guns are also made in stainless steel. The K frame was designed to shoot up to the standard 357 magnum loads. A standard everyday shooting of magnum loads in 38 special or 357 magnum will after a period of time will cause excessive wear in certain parts and even the frame. The 357 magnum model 28 Highway Patrolman is built on the heavier frame known as the N frame. It will take all the shooting you want to put through it with out a hitch. Now let me say that taking 3-4 boxes of ammo to the range every two months or so will not harm any gun made by S&W. You may also shoot what is called the 38 wad cutter round which is in the 700 FPS range all you want. All the guns will take it with out a second breath.
If you are one of the guys who loads like a little extra won't hurt then advise the persons on each side to stand back!

[uscra112]

Other than the special case of shooting exceptionally heavy boolits in the .357, I do not think that using the short .38 case in the .357 does you any good. Certainly the issue of chamber fouling should be enough to settle that issue. In my house, no .38 load exceeds what my Colt Officer's Model should be shot with, which means 3.0 Bullseye and 158 SWC. .357 Magnum loads never exceed the limits of a K frame, because I own one, even though I rarely take it to the range. I rechambered my .357 Contender barrel to .357 Max., specifically so the really hot load deer-hunting loads I make won't fit in my revolvers, much less blow one up.

A few months ago I bought a large stash of stuff from an estate auction, including a few dozen .38 rounds the old boy had reloaded. Shot every one of them in my 686, and it was a darned good thing I did. Also got 50 rounds in .357 brass that had a piece of paper in the box implying that they for a Casull. Those went through the Contender. What might have happened if that piece of paper had been lost? When I pass on, nobody will be at risk from any of MY handloads.