Adding Linotype to Alloy

[ColColt]

I was curious what the equivalent amount in Linotype, would yield a similar addition of 2% tin if I wanted to add to an alloy. I have LT but not a lot of tin is the main reason. In other words given 10# of ww's how much LT would I need to add or 10#'s of 95 Pb plus 5% Sb to give a BHN 12...or there about?

[btroj]

WHy add Linotype to wheel weights?
Does it cast fine the way it is? If so Ypu are just wasting the Lino if adding it solely for the tin. You also are adding a bunch on antimony with the Linotype so the hardness will quickly increase as will the brittleness.

I personally wonder how much tin is getting added to alloys that are fine the way they are. wheel weights are fine as is in almost every application I can think of. If I was going to do anything with wheel weights it would be to dilute with pine lead.

Don't get hung up on exact alloys or exact BHn readings. Does the alloy cast fine? Do the bullets shoot fine? If for hunting are they alloyed such that brittleness isn't an issue". If all those criteria are met then why worry aout what it is, just cast em, load em, and shoot em.

Just because we can measure it doesn't mean it matters.

[ColColt]

I have about 1/2 a pound of pure tin left and due to it's expense, I figured I could just drop in x amount of LT to compensate. The additional 2% or so of tin is for better fill out of the mold, primarily...that's what I read most places on the forum.

I have a small stash of 95%Pb and 5% antimony that I thought I'd add some tin to by adding LT-hence, my question.

[btroj]

Tin does make the lead fill out the mould better but if it is filling out fine without then why add the extra expense? Save the tin for when you have an alloy that doesn't fill put properly.

In short- if it ain't broke, don't fix it! Did you check to see if it is broke?

Try the alloy, if it casts OK then leave it alone. I woder if the "add tin for improved fill out" is something people know from first hand experience or if most are just repeating wha they have always heard. Sort of like "microgroove rifles won't shoot cast". I don't buy it until I see it and I am yet to see an alloy that screamed for more tin.

[Defcon-One]

Your 5% SB, 95% Pb alloy should be around 13 BHN already!

Tin (Sn) does help with mold fill out, it reduces the surface tension of the alloy! Yes, I know from first hand experience. I typically use 2% Tin in my alloy with 3% Antimony (Sb). My personal preference!

Linotype is 4% Tin so if you mix it 50/50 with pure lead you get a 2% Tin alloy. But there will be 12% Antimony in the Linotype which gives you 6% Antimony, 2% Tin in the 50/50 mix (basically, Hardball Alloy). With your alloy already having 5% Antimony it would be way too high in Antimony (8.5% Sb) if you upped the Tin with Linotype.

With 10 lbs. of COWWs, I'd just add about 1 lb. of the Linotype to get over 12 BHN. That would get you 0.64% Tin as well which should help a bit with mold fillout. Adding 2 lbs. of Linotype would get you to 13 BHN and 0.92% Tin, 4.5% Antimony.

If you want more Tin for fill out, I'd use Solder or the pure Tin!

[white eagle]

just add enough lino to hep the fill out
forget about the bhn
watch the barrel if you get a lead wash you can
add a touch more lino to harden the alloy up a mite
bhn is not all that critical .....but useful

[ColColt]

Tin does make the lead fill out the mould better but if it is filling out fine without then why add the extra expense? Save the tin for when you have an alloy that doesn't fill put properly.

In short- if it ain't broke, don't fix it! Did you check to see if it is broke?

Try the alloy, if it casts OK then leave it alone. I woder if the "add tin for improved fill out" is something people know from first hand experience or if most are just repeating wha they have always heard. Sort of like "microgroove rifles won't shoot cast". I don't buy it until I see it and I am yet to see an alloy that screamed for more tin.

I don't question those that have years more experience than I do such as Glen Fryxell and others on this board who have more in dept knowledge than myself. If I'm told that 2% tin will "sweeten" an alloy of ww's and give better fill out, then I take that to the bank. I don't feel the need nor have the time to prove every aspect of casting but glean from other's experiences, faults, failures and achievements so I don't have to go through the same.


Your 5% SB, 95% Pb alloy should be around 13 BHN already!

Nope, according to the Lee tester most of the ingots tested run about 10-10.5 BHN. This isn't bad for 45 ACP but I'd like to get it up a little harder for 44 and 357 Magnum...about 12 BHN. I'll double check again but last I found were not quite that hard.

[btroj]

I don't question those with more knowledge than me either. I also understand that ideal and reality don't always mach up.
I have lots of range scrap. I have some monotype. I use way more range scrap as it works well for aout everything I shoot. 30-30, 45-70, all handguns, it just works.
I have no idea how much tin is in it- my rifles don't seem to care.
Will more tin give enter fill out- in al likelihood yes. Key to me is - can YOU or YOUR guns tell the difference?
Like i said- just because you can measure it doesn't mean it matters. I KNOw that a filler gives more consistent velocity in my 45-70's favorite load but I don't use one. The target at 100 said it didn't matter. I measured a difference but it doesn't matter- so I don't use a filler.

Anyone who chooses to add tin is certainly welcome to do so. I just don't like to see people get so wrapped up around a number be it BHn or alloy composition that they don't try what they have, it usually works fine as is. This doesn't need to be rocket science. I think too many get hung up on minute details that just really don't matter.

Just my opinions. I have tin, I just don't use it.

[Char-Gar]

When you add linotype, you will be adding far more antimony than tin.

[R.M.]

Your ingots will probably test softer than a boollet cast from that same ingot because ingots cool slower than boolits.

[ColColt]

So, in essence there's no need to add tin to the 95-5% alloy? I thought, other than adding tin to lead for a specific hardness, or adding it to ww's , the purpose was to have a certain lead/tin/antimony alloy for a "balanced boolit, so to speak. Maybe I've read something into it.

[btroj]

In an ideal world you would have more tin but sadly we don't often have ideal alloys to work with. Don't know about you but i am too cheap to buy known alloys from a foundry.

Try casting with what you have. It will be plenty hard for any sane 44 mag loads. I actually would prefer to dilute it to around 2.5 % antimony so it would expand a bit for a hunting load.

Getting a balanced alloy is a good idea and has some merit. Key is determining if the cost/ work of getting there is required. Often it just isn't warranted.

Key is to find what works for you. I do what I do because it fits my needs and my desired level of cost/ effort. Some people have a "need" to have pecise alloys and they will overlook coat/ work to get the desired alloy. I am not one of them.

Casting to me should be fun. Over worrying the precise content of an alloy is not fun to me. I just go with soft/medium/hard and live with it. Hasnt failed me yet.

[white eagle]

I alloyed up some 8/1 isolead to lino
started out at 10.5 bhn and at the moment its 12.0 bhn
now that was just made yesterday so I suspect it will get even harder
hope that heps

[ColColt]

I like keeping the hardness level on par with ww's or close to BHN12 as that seems to work well for nearly all my pistol shooting. Accessing ww's here is hard and getting worse. I've mixed in the past 50/50 lead to Linotype for a Lyman #2 equivalent but find I like it even softer and so add more lead to that now.

I'll just cast some up with the 95-5% alloy and see how things go from there. I did order about 30 pounds of LT from Rotometals awhile back as my stash was getting low and two pounds of tin so, that should last me a while and I have enough lead to get me into next Spring at least.

[arjacobson]

I might have a few pounds of radiator soldier left. Also a few pounds of smelted pewter. I would make some kind of a trade with you for linotype if you are looking for tin? Pm me if interested

[btroj]

Colcolt- try using Linotype with lead at about 25/75 with the bulk being pure lead. Souls be plenty hard for about any pistol shooting you want to do and it helps stretch the Linotype dollar.
Do you shoot at a range where you can get any lead back from the berm? I picked up about 50 pounds in the past 10 days. Had a quiet day at the range so I hit the berms on the various pistol pits. I am lucky to have a range where this is possible. I figure I might be able to get one or two hundred pounds a year that way. I find range scrap by itself makes a good pistol bullet.

[Defcon-One]

Nope, according to the Lee tester most of the ingots tested run about 10-10.5 BHN. This isn't bad for 45 ACP but I'd like to get it up a little harder for 44 and 357 Magnum...about 12 BHN. I'll double check again but last I found were not quite that hard.


No offense, but I suspect that your alloy is not really 95% Pb, 5% Sb or you hardness tester is not working as it should! How does a two week old bullet cast from your alloy test?


Antimonial Lead = 0% Tin, 5% Antimony, 95% Lead and is known to be Brinell 13 (BHN 13)! That is science and not likely to be different in your shop.

[onesonek]

Your ingots will probably test softer than a boollet cast from that same ingot because ingots cool slower than boolits.


No offense, but I suspect that your alloy is not really 95% Pb, 5% Sb or you hardness tester is not working as it should! How does a two week old bullet cast from your alloy test?


Antimonial Lead = 0% Tin, 5% Antimony, 95% Lead and is known to be Brinell 13 (BHN 13)! That is science and not likely to be different in your shop.

I agree with the top quote as I have seen it for myself, hence a false reading is more likey, in comparision to the more typical foundry 13 bhn testing.
But may be more to the point, other than fillout, does not Sn also aid in (for lack of better terms), help bind Sb better in suspension? I think that would part of the goal when dealing with just a Pb/Sb alloy. Possibly better fillout seems only part of the benefit, needed or not.
But then my 2 cents is based on memory from what I been researching over the past few years, I haven't been casting only but one year.
But I too, would add Sn straight, rather than Lino, with Anitimonial Lead.

[Defcon-One]

...does not Sn also aid in (for lack of better terms), help bind Sb better in suspension? ...But I too, would add Sn straight, rather than Lino, with Anitimonial Lead.

Dave (onesonek) is 100% right!

This is all you need to know:

Tin provides cast-ability and "mix-ability". (2% is ideal and really all that's needed!)

Antimony provides hardness and the ability to harden through heat treatment. (2-6% antimony is ideal for most applications, more means harder.) I use 3% because that is easy to get with COWWs.

If you heat treat then: A small amount of Arsenic (which in and of itself doesn't harden the alloy appreciably) significantly enhances the heat treat-ability of the mix. (0.05-0.5% from shot or easy to get with COWWs)


...I typically use 2% Tin in my alloy with 3% Antimony (Sb)...

This mix is hard to beat for general shooting both in terms of performance and cost!

[onesonek]

Dave (onesonek) is 100% right!

This is all you need to know:

Tin provides cast-ability and "mix-ability". (2% is ideal and really all that's needed!)

Antimony provides hardness and the ability to harden through heat treatment. (2-6% antimony is ideal for most applications, more means harder.) I use 3% because that is easy to get with WWs.

If you heat treat then: A small amount of Arsenic (which in and of itself doesn't harden the alloy appreciably) significantly enhances the heat treat-ability of the mix. (0.05-0.5% from shot)


I forgot to mention, I would also tend to cut that Antimonial Lead by about half with pure, and then add 1-2% Sn. Like Defcon, I am finding a 95-3-2 or a 95-2.5-2.5 very useful in handgun loads. Also some .45-70 loads.

[ColColt]

No offense, but I suspect that your alloy is not really 95% Pb, 5% Sb or you hardness tester is not working as it should! How does a two week old bullet cast from your alloy test?


Antimonial Lead = 0% Tin, 5% Antimony, 95% Lead and is known to be Brinell 13 (BHN 13)! That is science and not likely to be different in your shop.

No offense taken but, I did recheck several ingots and none come out harder than BHN11 with the Lee tester. Not much can go wrong with the Lee scale-it's pretty much fixed. It doesn't really matter much if it's 11 or 13 as both would shoot good. I don't care for hard boolits and that range for me is fine. I have 60 or so pounds of this alloy in one pound ingots and have only tested half a dozen and figured that was the norm for the rest of them.

I'll throw about 10-15 in my pot, add 2% tin and give it a go. I'm sure it'll cast graeat boolits. I haven't used this alloy as yet-still have some ww's I'm using but the time will come when I get to it.

[btroj]

I doubt that the 2 points on the BHN scale will ever be noticed by your guns. Guns care about a lot of things but I don't think BHN is one of them.
this is a situation where trial and error is the way to go. See if it works, if so then leave it alone.