Wider lube grooves needed....?

[RugerBob]

Hey guys, I am planning on starting to shoot blackpowder in my 45s. I have 2 vaqueros and now a uberti '73 I got just cuz I thought it easier to clean. Resting the 92 for a spell. Anyway, is there a good mold that has a wider lube groove for bp lube? Or is the 2 groove that the lee 255gr offers suitable? That is the current one I have on hand.
I will be using these loads/boolits for cowboy action shooting, just cuz I like the smoke and smell. If the lee mold I have at 255gr is not gonna pan out as grooves to small, who has a mold that may be what I need? Lyman would be nice as I already have single and 4 cav handles for that. And whats a good lube, as I am here? For use in a Lyman lube sizer. Or should I just buy 1000 already made too make sure its something I want to do. Who sells them?

Thanks all, Bob

[Chicken Thief]

Are you going to shoot from the mag?

If single shot then you can simply dip the boolit tip in Crisco before shooting.
If mag fed then the best way might be a 1/16" lubed feltwad under the boolit.

[GrayFox]

I think the Lee lube grooves are too shallow to hold enough BP lube, especially in a rifle barrel. I have used Lyman Black Powder Gold as I found that SPG didn't hold up here in GA in the summer time when I used to shoot SASS matches. Shooting BP my bullet was the 250 RNFP from the RCBS 45-250-FN mold, which when crimped over the front band produces a profile very similar to the original .45 Colt round. This gives you two fairly deep lube grooves to hold plenty of lube even for a rifle. Hope this helps, and good luck with your BP efforts.

[Don McDowell]

With a good lube and running full case loads that bullet just might carry enough lube.
I have shot alot of the Remington 255 bulk bullets with nothing more than the bit of lube that the "hollow' base would hold, with 37 grs of Goex 3f and a .030 fiber wad.
Might want to get some KIK 3f and Bullshop Nasa , or Sagebrush Alox lube.

[Dragoon 45]

The Lyman 454190 works great for me. I have the two cavity mold. I cast them out of whatever alloy I have, lube with SPG, and size them at .454. Load 37grns of Goex 3Fg over a .030 fiber wad. Shoot two Ruger stainless Vaqueros and a Marlin 1894 CB. Never had a pistol or my rifle foul out in a SASS match. Always have a good lube star on the muzzles. It gets pretty hot here in Oklahoma in the summer. The stainless Vaqueros are a breeze to clean and the Marlin is not that bad either.


Hey guys, I am planning on starting to shoot blackpowder in my 45s. I have 2 vaqueros and now a uberti '73 I got just cuz I thought it easier to clean. Resting the 92 for a spell. Anyway, is there a good mold that has a wider lube groove for bp lube? Or is the 2 groove that the lee 255gr offers suitable? That is the current one I have on hand.
I will be using these loads/boolits for cowboy action shooting, just cuz I like the smoke and smell. If the lee mold I have at 255gr is not gonna pan out as grooves to small, who has a mold that may be what I need? Lyman would be nice as I already have single and 4 cav handles for that. And whats a good lube, as I am here? For use in a Lyman lube sizer. Or should I just buy 1000 already made too make sure its something I want to do. Who sells them?

Thanks all, Bob

[Springfield]

This bullet has lots of lube for BP shooting. The bullets are available from www.whyteleatherworks.com and so are the moulds from www.biglube.com

[NickSS]

I also have used the lyman 454190 RF bullet for BP in a 45 colt. It is the original bullet that lyman developed way back for black powder and it works very well for me. I have shot it in a couple of colt clones from Uberti and a Rossi 92 Puma. Never had any trouble in a match with them. By the way 35 gr of FFG with that bullet makes for a potent load. I killed a wild bore with one shot from my carbine and the bullet went through it forehead through the brain down the neck and came out the side of the body behind the last rib on the right side. The bore piled right up and skidded a couple feet. Range was 25 yards and it was charging right at me.

[Cannoneer]

When it comes to using Black Powder in my SAA Clones, I prefer the bullets from http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/. They hold a slew of BP compatable lube and I've fired fifty rounds consecutively before I started having cylinder binding problems. Lyman's 452664 .45 RNFP also has a wide grease groove but it's not as efficient as the one from Whyte's Leather Works. Both weigh in around 250 grains and are very accurate out of my pistols.

I use a .44WCF as my SASS rifle and use the MavDuchman designed 200 grain .44 big lube slug.

[McLintock]

Those bullets that aren't the big lube design, like Springfield's picture, will lube pistol barrels and maybe a 20" carbine barrel, but if your '73 has the 24" tube, you need the big lube bullet, the others just don't carry enough lube for the extra 4"'s. You can use a lube cookie with the smaller lube groove bullets, but that's a lot of extra effort when you can just get the right bullet and not worry about it.
Mclintock

[RugerBob]

Thanks all for the replies. Looks like time for a new set of molds then. My '73 has the 24" barrel. Another avenue to turn since I have started casting. : ).

[John Boy]

Bob, you have to make a decision: with the rifle, CAS only or longer distance shooting also. If both, the big lube bullets are not what you want. If was designed to hold close to 4grs of lube but the balance point is wrong and the metplat is too wide to shoot past the normal CAS target distances.

How do I know? Because I shot them bullets for 8 years. The bullet that will not cause lube starvation and provide very good groups past CAS distances is the 454190, the original Colt bullet

[Lead pot]

You guys would be surprised just how little lube gets used when a bullet travels down the barrel. Even using a lube wad made from the harder commercial lube sticks you use in a lube sizer for PP bullets.
It's not so much the amount of lube but how hard the lube is. Black powder requires a softer lube then smokeless powder to be effective.
Just shoot a bullet through a long tube sometimes and weigh and measure the diameter of the lube rings left behind in that tube.

[Springfield]

John Boy is right, All bullets don't work for ALL applications. But then I think we all already know that. I shoot mostly SASS/CAS type shooting with real BP, so I prefer the Big Lube designs for most things. But sometimes I go off on a tangent and shoot other things. For example I like to shoot Wild Bunch, which is basically CAS shooting but with 45 autos and pump shotguns, kinda like in the movie "The Wild Bunch". But being the BP shooter that I am I shoot my 45 auto with BP. I use the 454190 bullet John Boy mentions mostly because it has a smaller nose to feed better and it is heavier to make up for the small volume of BP I can fit in the case. Works great in my stock 1916 45 Colt. I didn't have to change the springs or alter the magazine or anything. I like to go with whatever works well without a lot of extra effort. I don't shoot much long range, over 200 yards, so I am no expert there. If I did I would probably use some pointier bullets with smaller lube grooves like most of the good shooters use and blow tube or wipe the bore like they do. So Ruger Bob, if you would like a few Big Lubes and some 454190's to try side by side I have moulds for both. No need to commit to 1000 either.

[Don McDowell]

Always wonder how we managed to shoot those cartridges with blackpowder in all manner of guns for 130 someodd years before the world was graced with the Big lube bullets...

[SharpsShooter]

Always wonder how we managed to shoot those cartridges with blackpowder in all manner of guns for 130 someodd years before the world was graced with the Big lube bullets...

Tis a miracle Don. I use a 260gr Keith SWC with the crimp groove filled also for my 73 rifle and Ruger BH. The rifle is 24" barreled and I can go over 50 or thereabouts with no issues using NASA,.

SS

[Don McDowell]

I never had any trouble with all manner of bullets using Sagebrush alox.
Even did a test with chrono and accuracy data on another site, but one of the BigLube zombies came on got stupid and another BigLube zombie that was a moderator thru most of the thread out, including all the pertinent data and then proceed to give me a vacation from that site.
Then a little later I was curious about a Biglube bullet that was bragged up to be something it couldn't be no matter how hard I tried, and got in a big shoot out with them Ahx-- zombies again
Biglube and it's zombies can kiss my lilly white a----. Poor buggers wouldn't know a good bullet if it bit there empty brainpans intwo....

[otterdriver]

Where can a fellow find a good source for the Sagebrush Alox lube?

[Don McDowell]

http://www.sageoutfitters.com/catalog/item/7209324/7456325.htm

[otterdriver]

Thank you Don,
Certainly affordable too, for us currently financially challenged... Chris

[John Boy]

Then a little later I was curious about a Biglube bullet that was bragged up to be something it couldn't be no matter how hard I tried
Don, do I remember that episode so well ... it was the 500gr MK III. I spent 3 days of range time, loading every combination I could think of to get it to shoot - taking pictures of the targets - posting them, etc and the groups were horrible. Then I sent you a tray of them for a 2nd opinion as to their accuracy. You couldn't get it to group either.

Then the purveyor of the bullet mold shot a 10 shot group that Doc Lay and Brian Chilson would drool for ... on a Styrofoam box that floated away across the lake after he took a picture that looked like eraser circles stamped on a piece of paper - yea sure!

I do have to admit though ... my first BPCR reload with a Buffalo Classic was the Original 500gr big lube designed incorrectly that would only allow 52gr of BP to be charged. So I loaded with Triple Seven and shot a 600yd 5 shot group that was 7"x 2 1/4" with 3 holes that could be covered by a silver dollar. Had 2 witnesses to prove it. Was never able to repeat that group or even get close though - so I sold that mold too along with the others

PS: For the good of the order: Don't use the PRS bullets if you try to shoot them in any of the Lightning rifles - they won't chamber. The metplat is too large and won't fit between the carrier side arms

[Lead pot]

John.

I get groups at 200 yds that are out standing, I mean very tight less then a MOA. The next day I can take the rounds I didn't shoot up and they will just hold 5"
Maybe some day I will figure out why.

I never cared for wide lube grooves in rifles. They are ok in the short barrel hand guns for close work.
This bullet shoots very good and you will very seldom pull lead using a multi groove bullet like this because there is not a long space of dry lead in contact with the bore, even the ogive is clear unlike a bore riding nose.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/38groovedperfection.jpg

[Don McDowell]

John and despite all the threats of dire consequences, and the promise that we'ld see that bullet winning competitions..... I still have seen no equipment lists, nor heard of any matches that anyone has ever fired that bullet in.....
Just seems like whenever the talk turns to bp and the original wcf and colt rounds the biglubers are like a batch of zombies, coming at us like Peter Boyle in Mel Brooks Young Frankentien, tatered bottles of triple 7 and app dropping from their sleeves, and buckets of drool from a variety of lubes sliding down their chins,,,, BEEG LOOB, BEEG LOOB,,, about all they can say...

[Springfield]

John Boy: Last time I looked the meplat(one T) was the flat part on the end of the bullet. How can it be larger then the sides of the bullet to keep the bullet from fitting between anything? As for Big Lube bullets being required for long distance shooting, no one ever said they were designed for such use, for the most part. Mostly they work well for Cowboy Action Shooting where many rounds are sent down range for guys like me who are too damn lazy to blow tube or wipe their bores, especially for rifles. With pistols most anything will lube well enough if you use BP lube, but then again lazy guys like me like to use the same bullet in both rifles and pistols. And so far I haven't found anyone who can tell me how the extra lube will HURT at most CAS distances. And EVEN YOU got the 500 grain BL bullet to work great once. Maybe you should do some more load development since that is what you are so good at, according to you. Apparently the bullet is up to it under the right circumstances. As for how we got along without BL bullets for so long, you could ask the same thing about computers, cell phones, digital cameras, fuel injection, automobiles, polio injections, laser sights, plastic framed handguns, rifle scopes, all kinds of stuff. Just because it hasn't been around for 200 years doesn't mean it isn't helpful to a large group of people. Like I said, every bullet isn't for everybody. If it was, we would all have just one bullet mould for every caliber, and I'm betting that isn't true for too many here. You wanna blow tube, wipe your bore, use grease cookies, go ahead. I choose not to. I cast my own bullets, so whether I cast a BL or some other smaller lube groove bullet it is the same amount of work for me and no skin off your behind so what do you care? I don't make fun of your sights with bubble levels in them (can't ya hold your gun straight or what?) And who the heck says to use 777 or APP with BL bullets, not the seller of the moulds, that's for sure, DD uses real BP. Subs don't even need that much lube as far as I know, I never use that stuff anyway. I think you are just starting to make stuff up now.

[RugerBob]

I would only be using this rifle for cas/sass. I have the 454190 thats a single cav and haven't used since I got some other 2,4 and 6 cav molds. Thanks for the great info all, Bob

[John Boy]

How can it be larger then the sides of the bullet to keep the bullet from fitting between anything?Springfield, the side arms on the Lightnings are straight at the back and then they are curved inward at the front of the chamber. The curved front ends are not wide enough to allow the PRS to fit between them when the rounds are released from the magazine. The width problem is the PRS does not have a sufficiently tapered ogive and metplat smaller than the width of the front part of the arms. The nose of the bullet slides up on top of the arms, are loose and not secured on the carrier by the side arms. The rounds then are not in the proper position being presented to the chamber and they jam up against the top of the chamber

Want the big lube bullets to shoot good groups past CAS distances? To do it, all the big lubes have to be redesigned!
Take look at this thread for 44-40 wide lube groove bullets that were redesigned ... http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=8266.0 ... including the 100yd target

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/44largelube.jpg

Next, take a look at John Kort's (w44wcf) video shooting the redesigned Accurate mold 44-40 bullet that he made knocking down a bank of pigs at 300 meters
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=8921.0

w44wcf is in the process of doing the same redesign for the the PRS, 45 Colt
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-260F-D.png

We all have to remember the beginnings for Big Lubes ... Pigeon Roost Slim took the 45 caliber Maxi which has a wide ogive at the driving band then tapers to a sharp angle to the metplat. PRS extended the wide ogive with the large metplat. Then along came the Snakebite and then the Mav Dutchman with the same nose configuration, skinny shank and wide GG

If in the beginning, the modified bullet designs was done for all the Big Lubes with a more tapered radius nose, smaller metplat, wider driving band, better balance ratios ... they would serve both purposes: CAS ranges and longer ranges past the CAS distances

Target pictures and videos of the good groups shooting the redesigned wide lube groove bullets ... DON'T LIE!

Springfield, if I was you ... I'd get these redesigned molds and cast bullets for sale that serve both purposes - CAS and longer range shooting capability. I believe then the original designed bullet sales would die on the vine

[Don McDowell]

Ruger Bob you combine the bullets from the mould you have with a prooven blackpowder lube, such as Bullshops Nasa, Sage Alox, White lightnin, DGL , and others you don't need to worry about all the **** that seems to afflict BEEG LOOB zombies.....

[Springfield]

John Boy: When these re-designed moulds become available in LEE type 6 cavity I might consider it, otherwise my bullets/hour count will go down and make the bullets more expensive. What you guys don't seem to consider is that 98% of my customers are cas shooters and don't care about the wider meplat. And SOME of my customers actually use these bullet for hunting also, and they LIKE the wider meplat. Long distance shooters are a minority in the shooting world, especially ones who shoot 44-40 and 45 Colt. I have only had maybe 6 customers in the last 5 years inquire as to the long distance capability of the Big Lube bullets, and then they were asking about the DD-ROA 45-70 bullet, which sucks at it. I have my own customer base, so if someone else wants to get into the small caliber BP long distance bullet business they have my blessing. All bullets don't work for everybody, and to go along with that, I can't please everybody. If I did then I would be the only bullet casting business in the world, wouldn't I?[smilie=l: As to the Lightning, I didn't know that about the feeding. I have been tempted a couple of times to buy one but am always glad I didn't after seeing and hearing how they work most of the time. I'll stick with my '66's and my Henry. And the NOE bullet above really is only slightly different than the original MAV bullets I cast. The newer ones are different with larger lubegrooves, DD likes to change them at will and I don't always agree with him. I really like the Accurate 215 bullet posted above. . But according to Mr McDowell, we don't need any of these. Even you long range guys can't agree.

[Don McDowell]

And you Springfield are, as usual, unable to make a compelling reason why we need to use your t/c maxiball knockoffs......
How about instead of a picture of a poorly cast bullet you show us some groups those bullets can fire?

[Springfield]

Most anybody can hit a 12" steel plate with a pistol at 15 yards, and an 18" steel plate at 25 yards. That's all the accuracy we need. Big Lube bullet people never claimed the bullets are the most accurate out there. We do find they work better in keeping the BP fouling soft, especially in rifles. If they don't work for you, don't use them. We , on the other hand, don't feel the need to weigh our bullets and sort them by weight, nor do we make sure all the primer holes are the same size, we don't blow tube,wipe our bores, use sights with levels on them, use sticks to steady our guns, sock our powder, separate our brass by headstamp, use a drop tube, weigh all our charges, or use a tool that cuts off the sprue cutter marks so the bottom of the bullet is perfectly flat. We use any cheap Blackpowder we want. We don't have to use any brand name lube as there is so much of it most anything will work. We have fun blasting away at our steel plates while we dress up as cowboys, Indians, shopkeepers, train conductors, barkeeps, fallen women and Mexican banditos. Most of all, we have fun. SOME of us actually shoot Long Range also, but most of us don't have the time, money or energy to do what that takes to be competitive. But we don't do them at the same time. If your bullets work fine at YOUR cowboy shoot, I am happy for you. Many of us tried other bullets and found them lacking. Most of my customers are longtime repeat buyers, and I find it difficult to believe we are all idiots. If you feel your bullets are so much better, than I repeat, start your own bullet casting company and put us Big Lube guys out of business. I personally would rather do leather work anyway. It is more creative and fun, bullet making can be a chore, but hey, we all gotta make a living, and the market is there. Here is a pic of a nice 38-40 bullet, maybe it will be up to your standards, but I doubt it.

[otterdriver]

Sounds like accuracy is SECONDARY to keeping fouling soft with these Big Lubes? Seems like that would limit your market...

[Springfield]

I suppose it does, somewhat. But then we can't all afford swaged bullets that are all perfect, with accuracy that we will never need. All bullets, like all products sold today, are designed with certain criteria and demographics in mind. The BL bullets were designed to solve what some saw as a problem, having to swab your bore or maybe blow tube to be able to complete a cowboy match without touching your gun,cleaning wise. They were never intended to be long range accuracy bullets. If they aren't perfect for all people then someone needs to design a better bullet. And for me it will have to be in a 6 cavity mould to compete with the capability of the current mould to put out enough bullets to make them economically competitive. So far no one has been able to have a batch of 2 cavity steel moulds made with the larger lube groove so all BL bullets have to be hand cast. And I am not willing to give up 33% of my casting volume to get a bullet that I don't think will sell any better than the current model. None of the bullets touted above to be better than the current design are available in a 6 cavity mould that I know of. NOE will do 5, Accurate will do 4. I have examples of both gentlemans moulds and they are much better quality than the LEE moulds I currently use, but not enough cavities. They also tend to run quite a bit more, money wise. And until my customers start complaining that they can't hit any steel because of inferior bullets I see no reason to invest more of MY money. I do a few things that some folks think are crazy. I shoot BP in my 45 auto. I load BP on an unaltered Dillon progressive. I make my own lube. I shoot BP shotguns with plastic wads. As long as I'm not bothering anybody I don't appreciate people saying what I am doing is wrong. It works for me.

[Lead pot]

At the range the CB's shoot 30-35 feet you could load the rounds with what ever fits the case it wouldn't make any difference.
But you shoot a bullet like the last photo I think it will be like the once I was given once and they might just as well been loaded in a two bore punt gun because they hit every way but straight on and all over the place.
You can make a bullet that will carry a oz of lube and if it is not a quality lube it wont mean anything down range or how many you can shoot before things jam up.

[Springfield]

I guess the spotters at the shoots I have been to are blind, because I have clean stages all the time, even a clean match once in a while. Last year during the Wild Bunch side match at our annual shoot we set the rifle target out to 100 yards. Lots of Enfields, Mausers, Krags, and some guys like me shooting lever actions. My rebarelled to 38-55 Winchester 30-30 was the only gun to hit the target 9 out of 10. The next best was 6 hits. I used a Big Lube bullet lubed with my own crappy lube. We shot a total of 30 cartridges and the last stage was the best, with the 9 hits. I realize 100 yards is no big deal to you guys but here in our area the longest range we have is 200 yards. I thought 9 out of 10 with the gun held freehand and under the clock was decent. Certainly good enough for cowboy work, and WAY better than "minute of deer", which is all some guys strive for. Why don't you complain about jacketed bullets not working well in your shiloh's, or why inlines aren't "real" blackpowder guns, or how the subs don't smell the same as real BP? It makes just as much sense. You are mixing apples and oranges here. Nobody "NEEDS" Big Lube bullets, just like nobody "needs" anything better than a Buffalo Classic to shoot long range. Some things work better than others, but some work fine for what we use them for. It all depends on how particular you are, and how much money, time and energy you have to invest. I guess you guys would really go off on some of threads here where guys show bullets with wrinkles in them and some other poster says, "just shoot them, they will be fine" for most work. And they probably would. Doesn't mean they shouldn't strive for a better bullet, but it is their call, and if it is good enough for them, what business is it of anybody else? As for jamming up, I can and have shot a 5 stage match, put my guns away. 2 weeks later shot another match, put my guns away. 3 weeks later shot another match with no problems with guns jamming. With unaltered Uberti 1872 Opentops and an Uberti '66 rifle. Done the same with my 5.5" Uberti SAA's. So don't tell me the $%#^ things don't work, I know better.

[Don McDowell]

Most anybody can hit a 12" steel plate with a pistol at 15 yards, and an 18" steel plate at 25 yards. That's all the accuracy we need. Big Lube bullet people never claimed the bullets are the most accurate out there. We do find they work better in keeping the BP fouling soft, especially in rifles. If they don't work for you, don't use them. We , on the other hand, don't feel the need to weigh our bullets and sort them by weight, nor do we make sure all the primer holes are the same size, we don't blow tube,wipe our bores, use sights with levels on them, use sticks to steady our guns, sock our powder, separate our brass by headstamp, use a drop tube, weigh all our charges, or use a tool that cuts off the sprue cutter marks so the bottom of the bullet is perfectly flat. We use any cheap Blackpowder we want. We don't have to use any brand name lube as there is so much of it most anything will work. We have fun blasting away at our steel plates while we dress up as cowboys, Indians, shopkeepers, train conductors, barkeeps, fallen women and Mexican banditos. Most of all, we have fun. SOME of us actually shoot Long Range also, but most of us don't have the time, money or energy to do what that takes to be competitive. But we don't do them at the same time. If your bullets work fine at YOUR cowboy shoot, I am happy for you. Many of us tried other bullets and found them lacking. Most of my customers are longtime repeat buyers, and I find it difficult to believe we are all idiots. If you feel your bullets are so much better, than I repeat, start your own bullet casting company and put us Big Lube guys out of business. I personally would rather do leather work anyway. It is more creative and fun, bullet making can be a chore, but hey, we all gotta make a living, and the market is there. Here is a pic of a nice 38-40 bullet, maybe it will be up to your standards, but I doubt it.

Springfield I don't use a blowtube except in long range matches when shooting grease groove bullets on hot days, I don't do all the stuff you mention to cases.
I don't shoot sights with a bubble level, in fact most of the time I don't use anything in the front sight of my long range guns except the silver blade.
I do and have for however for the past 40 someodd years weighed out ALL of my cast bullets, wether for the handguns and wcf cartrdiges or the longrange rifles etc. I even weighed out the roundballs for c&B revolvers and percussion and flint guns from 36-54 caliber.
I also do believe that even in the silliness of the dress up game you play that a load developing the most accuracy you can muster will help make up for a wiggle or a shake. Accuracy is easy to achieve and maintain given quality bullets and lubes in the first place.
I'ld also suggest if you prefer leather work to bullet making you might want to concentrate on the leather work.....and it that's the case why do you spend so much time huckstering those bullets you don't like to cast?
You're right that bullet you pictured for the 38-40 won't hold a candle to the RCBS 180 or the original Lyman/Ideal bullet.

[Lead pot]

The problem with the wide lube groove is it doesn't have enough bearing surface to keep it from stripping across the lands

[otterdriver]

John Boy is right. Even to a total newbie as myself, the performance shown in the video is an impressive sales point. The Big Lube is a cool looking projectile, but seems to just have too much mass forward in its design. Seems like it would be inherently unstable. I probably should't have opened my mouth. Will defer to more competent members...

[Springfield]

That's amazing, you can tell how accurate a bullet is going to be by just looking at it! I wish I was that smart, I always have to do some load development first. Ya know, I don't huckster anything. I don't pay to advertise my bullets anywhere, never have. All of my customers are either repeat sales or else they were referred by a friend. I never say the BL bullets are the only thing that will work. On the contrary, even in my replies here I have stated that all bullets don't work for everybody, but you seem stuck in the "they aren't needed anywhere by anyone" mode. You sure you don't work for the government, because that's the kinda thing they like to say, and forget about choices and people deciding what works for them. You even go as far as telling me what I should do for a living. How about you have fun with your long range stuff and I will stick to my silliness.

[Don McDowell]

Not only does it lack on the bearing surface, that skinny little post left there in the bottom of the lube groove will not compress the same amount each round that goes down the barrel. Captured bullets has shown widely varying lengths of those things, and that's not going to do anything to make accurate shooting. Combine that with the oversized nose, with the very little mass in the rear of the bullet and it's liable to be twisting during it's ride down the barrel. Those lube groove could be half the size they are an the bullet would be a much better bullet and still provide ample lube for use with blackpowder.

Springield, you're the one that said you liked leatherwork better than casting.......

[Lead pot]

I guess the spotters at the shoots I have been to are blind, because I have clean stages all the time, even a clean match once in a while. Last year during the Wild Bunch side match at our annual shoot we set the rifle target out to 100 yards. Lots of Enfields, Mausers, Krags, and some guys like me shooting lever actions. My rebarelled to 38-55 Winchester 30-30 was the only gun to hit the target 9 out of 10. The next best was 6 hits. I used a Big Lube bullet lubed with my own crappy lube. We shot a total of 30 cartridges and the last stage was the best, with the 9 hits. I realize 100 yards is no big deal to you guys but here in our area the longest range we have is 200 yards. I thought 9 out of 10 with the gun held freehand and under the clock was decent. Certainly good enough for cowboy work, and WAY better than "minute of deer", which is all some guys strive for. Why don't you complain about jacketed bullets not working well in your shiloh's, or why inlines aren't "real" blackpowder guns, or how the subs don't smell the same as real BP? It makes just as much sense. You are mixing apples and oranges here. Nobody "NEEDS" Big Lube bullets, just like nobody "needs" anything better than a Buffalo Classic to shoot long range. Some things work better than others, but some work fine for what we use them for. It all depends on how particular you are, and how much money, time and energy you have to invest. I guess you guys would really go off on some of threads here where guys show bullets with wrinkles in them and some other poster says, "just shoot them, they will be fine" for most work. And they probably would. Doesn't mean they shouldn't strive for a better bullet, but it is their call, and if it is good enough for them, what business is it of anybody else? As for jamming up, I can and have shot a 5 stage match, put my guns away. 2 weeks later shot another match, put my guns away. 3 weeks later shot another match with no problems with guns jamming. With unaltered Uberti 1872 Opentops and an Uberti '66 rifle. Done the same with my 5.5" Uberti SAA's. So don't tell me the $%#^ things don't work, I know better.


Just asking, and not knocking your way of doing things. What powder are you using to do this with?
I clean my rifles or hand guns after every use.

[Springfield]

I don't do it that way everytime, just a couple of times as sort of a torture test. I did it once with Goex and the other time I think is was KIK powder. I'm just a cowboy shooter so I use what I can get cheap. I'm sure the lube groove could be smaller and the bullets would still work OK, but I didn't design them. You guys sure are hung up on absolute accuracy, glad I don't have to be to have fun. I said I liked leather work better than casting, didn't say I was willing to give it up. I like shooting better than reloading, yet I still reload.

[w30wcf]

For those that say that the original bullets...... 427098 in the 44-40 and 457190 in the 45 Colt..... will shoot accurately for many rounds in a 24" rifle barrel, I would like to see a 10 shot group made after at least 40 rounds have been fired with no blow tubing / cleaning as proof.

Personally, I have tried the original designs in the 24" barrels of my Marlin Cowboy 44-40 and 45 Colt rifles using both NASA and SPG lubes and Goex powders including Goex Express, and wasn't able to go 15 rounds without the barrel beginning to foul out (hard ring of fouling forming at the muzzle inward)…..and that was with humidity in the 70+% range.

Perhaps the above recipes will work in a 20" barrel, but in my experience, not a 24".

Swiss powder has shown me time and time again in the 40 gr capacity cartridges that it works extremely well for with the original 2 groove bullet designs with fine accuracy and no foul out for many rounds (50+) from my Marlin repeaters. :-D

The same looks to be true of the newer lot of KIK, although I have not had the chance to test it beyond 30 rounds yet. Accuracy was very good up until that point though and no foul out. :-D

“BIG LUBE” Bullets
I certainly applaud the efforts of Pigeon Roost Slim in developing the first bullet that carried additional lube to run in a 24” barrel for many repeated shots using Goex powder with no “foul out”. And to those that followed with similar designs, and to DD for providing the molds and to Springfield Slim for providing bullets, I say “Thank You” for filling a nitch that needed to be filled.

I will say that I have found that these bullets will shoot pretty darn well at 100 yards IF muzzle velocities are at least 1,250 f.p.s. Most loads that our CAS pards use don’t come close to that but they don’t need too since they work very well for what they were intended for.

ACCURATE 43-215C
Since I am one that never seems to be quite satisfied with the status quo, I wondered just how much lube is really needed to make the 24” trip and not “foul out” in many repeated shots. So, I took some cast bullets and began experimenting by cutting a single lube groove at different depths and lengths with my lathe to find out.

Along with that, I wanted to try bullets that followed the profile of the original 44-40 bullet (427098) that shot well for me at longer distances but with just the right amount of lube to keep running in a 24” barrel with Goex.

As a result of my experiments, the 43-215C was born. It carries about 20% more lube than the 427098 in a single groove (1.2 grs) and has, with Goex powder, proven to be just about as accurate as the 427098 / Swiss combo @ 200 yards and 300 meters for many repeated shots.

ACCURATE 45-260F
Encouraged with the great results of the 43-215C, I designed the 45-260F, for the 45 Colt. I expect the same good results at extended distances when I test them in Ridgway in 2012.

www.accuratemolds.com

w30wcf

[Don McDowell]

One of my favorite matches has handgun targets from 17-50 yds, the 17 yd is a 2 inch swinger, that one is where the match is won or lost, if you can't get at least 4 hits on it you're pretty much out of the running. The 50 yd target is a coyote that's about 6inches deep on the body, you need to get 5 on him unless you ran the rest of them.... (see the 17yd target) so yeh a load that will onehole 5 rounds out to 25 yds is pretty well needed. (no pickup doors to shoot at there)
Could tell you about the levergun target at 250 yds, but I'll spare you how much fun that ram is especially after you've had a turn at the 80 yd standing prairiedog that's shot offhand.
Doesn't take anymore time to make accurate loads than it does to throw together slop that goes bang....

[Don McDowell]

John give me one good reason,,, just one ( and being to darn lazy to run a patch down the barrel between relays don't count) why anyone would think they would need to fire 40 rounds with out any barrel treatment then fire for group?

[w30wcf]

Don,
Back in 1875 Doc Pardee fired a 30 shot target with his 1873 Winchester using factory b.p. ammunition at 110 yards with all shots grouping inside 4". He commented that it was done without wiping the barrel which "proved that the Winchester was steady in her performance."

To me that was a benchmark of rifle and ammunition performance to follow using a copy of the original bullet (427098) but in a Marlin since I don't have a WInchester '73 with a 24" barrel (I wish I did!).

My initial test critera, then, was to be able to at least shoot 30 rounds, maintaining accuracy throughout using a copy of the original 2 lube grooved bullet. I soon found that to meet the "maintaining accuracy" criteria, the barrel must not "foul out".

I first tried...on a number of occasions, using either Goex or Schuetzen and NASA or SPG lube, but the results were disappointing with accuracy deteriorating as the barrel "fouled out" in less than 15 rounds in the last few of the 24" of bullet travel.

Thankfully, Swiss provided the performance I was looking for and the new lot of KIK also went 30 rounds with accuracy being maintained throughout.:grin:

NRA Cowboy Silhouette matches consist of 40 rounds+ sighters, so I wondered if I could shoot a full box (50 rounds) with the 427098 / Swiss combination with accuracy being maintained from the 1st shot to the 50th. I put up a target at 100 yards and was delighted with the results.... it did.:grin: Now I need to try that with KIK. I'm keeping my hopes up.......

w30wcf

[Don McDowell]

Yeh but John,,,, you tried to pit 2f goex against 2f Swiss, and I'm continually disappointed in you doing that. Had you of tried powder of equal grain size, you may have found things just a wee bit different.
You will like the KIK it shoots cleaner than goex, and does not leave that red hard clay **** plastered to the barrel walls like Swiss has a tendancy to do.

[w30wcf]

Don,
In addition to 2F, I did try 3F Goex & 3F Goex Express with the same disappointing results with the two groove bullet. I wished that they had worked better.

Going the other way, SWISS 1 1/2FG and 1FG worked as well as SWISS 2F as did Goex Cartridge but the velocity with Cartridge was below 1,100 f.p.s.

w30wcf

[Springfield]

HMM, I just shot 4 stages with 10 rifles shots each(40 rounds) I still have 2 stages to go, so a total of 60 shots will be fired. I realize it's only 25 yards but if the barrel is starting to foul out even that will be impossible.

[Don McDowell]

John its funny how things are different. With 37 grs goex 3f and a .030 fiber wad under the Remington bulk 250 gr bullet,with just a dab of sagebrush alox wiped in the base, I got 875fps from the handgun and nearly 1100 from the rifle...35 rounds from the rifle and no loss of accuracy.....

[w30wcf]

HMM, I just shot 4 stages with 10 rifles shots each(40 rounds) I still have 2 stages to go, so a total of 60 shots will be fired. I realize it's only 25 yards but if the barrel is starting to foul out even that will be impossible.

Springfield,
Sounds like what I have experienced as well when shooting the "big lube" type bullets with Goex. I do like to shoot longer distances though, and based on my previous explanation, the 43-215C runs fine with Goex + gives very good down range accuracy. I expect that its brother, the 45- 260F to do the same.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

John its funny how things are different. With 37 grs goex 3f and a .030 fiber wad under the Remington bulk 250 gr bullet,with just a dab of sagebrush alox wiped in the base, I got 875fps from the handgun and nearly 1100 from the rifle...35 rounds from the rifle and no loss of accuracy.....

Don,
Yep, its funny how things can be different.......could it be the differences in latitude and longitude(?) :drinks:

Glad to hear that you are getting much better results than I in the 45 Colt with a small amount of lube.:-D

Is that in a 20" or 24" barrel?

w30wcf

[Lead pot]

John.

I just looked at the video where you were shooting the pigs.
That is a fine range. Does that club have a web link where I can get a schedual for the shoots held there? Erie is close enough for me to make some matches held there.
I'm not a shilhouette shooter but I just might get to be one.

[McLintock]

And how about that .030" fiber wad, most Cowboy shooters don't use wads in their main match ammo, unless they're using a lube cookie, just powder and a lubed bullet. That's why the specialty bullets were developed, to avoid having to deal with grease cookies and fouled out barrels. My Uberti '73 in .44 Special fouled out badly using a Lyman 427666 200 gr bullet with 23-5 grs of KIK 2F, but with a lube cookie, it did good. Didn't want to use my expensive Swiss for cowboy matches. Switched to the Mav Duchman .44 BL bullet and have done 12 stage matches, 4 stages per day, and never cleaned the barrel. Squirted a little ballistol in the action to free it up the 2nd and 3rd days, but nothing in the barrel. They were designed for this kind of use and they do a good job, longer range stuff, I'd go with another type bullet, although I've shot my '73 out to a 100 yards or so with decent accuracy. Back when they were trying to develop Big lube designs for 45-70's and 38-55's, I got in a pretty good shouting match with Dick Dastardly and his buddy (can't remember his name), and told them they were barking up the wrong tree, but got shouted down, so gave up arguing with them. But for main match Cowboy Action Shooting they work GREAT, in my humble opinion. As long as I'm still shooting black powder in CAS matches I'll continue to use them, as I've got the moulds and don't want to buy new moulds to accomplish the same thing. I'll use my Brooks, Paul Jones and Hoch moulds for Shilouette in the big bores and be just as happy as if I had good sense, but without slobbering or drooling too much.
McLintock

[Springfield]

McClintock: I've had pretty good luck with the 38-55 bullet, DD didn't get so carried away with the lube grooves on that one. But the DD-ROA, when he made the second version he made the grooves even bigger than the first version. I had a machinist open up and lengthen the bottom so I get a bit less lube but it works better in my larger bore Trapdoor.

[Don McDowell]

McClintock you do know that a .030 fiber wad is nothing more than a very thin piece of gasket material? You can punch the darn things from a cereal box for crimeny sakes, nothing big or complicated.... Just need to know a wee bit about loading blackpowder...

[Springfield]

I know enough about loading Blackpowder that my wife and I both shoot it at cowboy matches so we go through about 4-500 rounds a month. The last thing I need is to have to punch out 500 wads a month. Would slow down the loading on my Dillon also. I'd rather spend that time with my 2 kids. Don't think it would help me clang steel at 20 yards either. So Don, how many cowboy matches do you do a month? Sounds like you shoot quite a bit.

[Don McDowell]

Springfield you can buy those wads for less than 20$ a 1000. They've only been around in use since the 1860's that I can find,,, but I'm sure you dressup boys know more about it than all the odg's that left us written record.
Yes I do shoot alot. I have never shot a "cowboy" match as I would have to travel upwards of 100 + miles one way to go to one. But here's a picture of part of my range I can walk right out the back door to.
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/Branding010010.jpg

[Don McDowell]

Here we are spending a nice sunday afternoon on the upstairs deck
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/010108.jpg

Reloading bench is just inside the door. The pistol targets in the back yard aren't quite visible over the top of the outhouse in the right side of the picture.
Not much of a problem to load up and fire and reload a couple hundred rounds in a day...
Don't need to get in a vehicle and go drive somewhere to shoot and test loads.... And lots of em.

[otterdriver]

I think I would have died and gone to Heaven with a spread like that....!

[Don McDowell]

Thanks Otter,it's a nice place. We have a lot of friends that come enjoy it with us from time to time.

[John Boy]

Good Morning Gentlemen ...

Does that club have a web link where I can get a schedual for the shoots held there? Erie is close enough for me to make some matches held there.
Lead pot, the video that w44wcf made shooting the pigs was at the Ridgway Rifle Club in Ridgway, PA ... http://www.ridgwayrifleclub.com/ which is east of Erie, PA
In addition to 2 fully equipped club houses, they have complete ranges for every NRA silhouette shooting discipline - including a new HiBore range @ 700 - 1000 meters. And the nice part for your annual membership of $35 ... all the steel targets are available to be used for practice - not locked up in a Conex and brought out only for matches. The Eastern Regional NRA BP Silhouette match is held there. Your competition is Brian Chilson who shot a perfect 40 targets there, last year

For me, Ridgway is close to a 9 hour drive from Jersey but I try to get there 2-3 times a year. This year was a bust, only once. My passion is Homer, the 1000yd buffalo silhouette

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2768.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2901.jpg
Here's another 500 meter shooting test with John (w44wcf) spotting for me using my '60 Henry with 300gr Casull's - 2 in a row
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2906.jpg


And Killer, w44wcf on another Spring day shooting a non NRA event - bumblebees with 22 shot!;-)

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgway%20May%202009/BeeKiller.jpg

And finally, the 'high range' layout
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2760.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2755.jpg

[Lead pot]

TNX. John.

That is a lot closer then where I been going to.

[John Boy]

Just some more info about Ridgway:
* Directly behind bank 4 of the Rams is where the HiBore Silhouettes are
* Look on the left of the range picture - the low brush going out to the chickens and past there to the turkeys is Alder Buckthorn, you know that good wood for BP charcoal!

[w30wcf]

Don,
Nice place! Thank you for the pics.
Here's a video that you may find amusing.....
http://www.youtube.com/embed/NA-ST8nXl4U?rel=0


John Boy,
Thank you for answering Lead Pot's question. The BPCR matches are usually held the 4th Sunday of the month Apr-Oct.

Here's a pic from behind the firing line at the NRA National Silhouette Championship this year which shows a bit of the 850-1000 yard targets at the top of the pic.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Silhouette/HiPowerFenton3-1.jpg

Lead Pot,
Where are you located?

w30wcf

[Lead pot]

I'm way up in the NW corner of Illinois.
But that range would only be about 8 hours from me and that is close enough to make some of the matches.
The only bad part and that is fighting the traffic going through Chicago, Gary, and some of the big towns in Ohio.
The way that range is laid out looks like one would have to shut down the whole range if one wants to shoot long range or paint swingers on the closer lines.

[w30wcf]

Lead Pot,
The range would only be shut down to reset / paint (if necessary) the animals.
On non match days, a number of folks can be shooting at any distance they want to.

The local motel is the Royal Inn and they have a very good restaurant as John Boy will attest to.
http://royalinnpa.com/index.html

About Ridgway
http://www.ridgwaychamber.com/

If I could get away with it, I'd retire to Ridgway. It's a really neat small town nestled in a small valley in the Allegheny National Forest.

St. Mary's is about 12 Mi away and has a number of motels.

In Mid May, a college buddy of mine and John Boy get together there for 3-4 days of fuunn ... I am sure that you would be welcome to join us if you would want to.

w30wcf

[John Boy]

On non match days, a number of folks can be shooting at any distance they want to.
Lead pot, to expound about non match days:
I usually arrive at Ridgway on Sundays and leave on Friday. I bring about 6 or 7 different caliber rifles and about 1000 rounds, excluding 22rf.

The 22's are shot up on the small bore silhouette range behind the lower club house - 10 banks of all the steel. Then there is the 100yd silhouette range for one's shooting pleasures. I usually hang out on the high range with 30-30 * 38-55 *45-70 * 45-90 * 43 Spanish and 50-70 rifles. On each Tuesday of the week, the Over The Hill Gang, all HiBore shooters have their non match shoot. We shoot in rotation and the non shooters do the spotting for each other ... shooters choice, anywhere from 200m to 1000m/yd targets. The coffee and donuts are always on hand and one couldn't find a better group of marksmen to shoot with and enjoy their company. 2012, I am bringing a couple of HiBore rifles, including my 220 Swift with a new 36 power mil dot scope on it :smile: John participates in the several matches there - I have yet attended one but that will change!

There are always local club members at the range who like to spot for me when John can't make it, plus a friend, Dean Carlson, who lives close by brings his rifles each day in the colder weather. We trade off shooting and spotting for each other.

I too, like John, would love to live in Ridgway and have access to this range any day of the week which is about 2 miles from the center of town. As a member, if out of towner's don't want to stay at the Royal Inn, they are permitted to sleep and eat with full cooking facilities in the lower club house ... which also has an indoor pistol range .... all for the price of a $35 annual membership fee! Might want to consider spending a week with us if you can .... would thoroughly enjoy meeting and shooting with you, both on and off the range

PS: We have several times spent evening hours looking for and watching the local elk herds that are in the area. One night, John - Jack and I found a herd of about 17 playing in the yard of a non resident property owner. Ever watched an elk banging a tire swing back and forth for enjoyment from about 20 feet away?

[Lead pot]

Thank you for the invite, really nice of you two.
It's only about 8 hours down the road and I pull my Motel room behind my truck.:)
I only pointed my truck east once when we went up to Main.

[McLintock]

CEREAL BOXES, for christ's sake Don, I found that making wads out of manly stuff, like beer cartons, worked much better; one on each side of the lube cookie did the trick. And, I always had a plentiful supply, but it all took extra time and effort. Nice shooting setup, and hey, moving targets to boot, but the one photo looks a little cold to me. Did that for over 30 years in Flagstaff and shooting in the winter wasn't much fun. Those your cows out there, looks like a cow-calf outfit; is it on private, Forest Service, BLM or State land, or a combo. I dealt with ranches, cowboys, cows and horses on Forest Service land here in Arizona and New Mexico, for over 30 years and it's a tough way to make a living these days, too many enviornmentalists, rules and regulations, plus the economy. If they're yours, unless you need them for a good tax write off, like most bigger ranches these days, I feel for 'ya, nothing but a losing proposition. But if you just live next door and it's public land across from you and Obama doesn't find a way to close it to shooting, that's good.
McLintock

[w30wcf]

Thank you for the invite, really nice of you two.
It's only about 8 hours down the road and I pull my Motel room behind my truck.:)
I only pointed my truck east once when we went up to Main.

Lead Pot,
You are most welcome. Hope you can make it to Ridgway sometime. One does not have to be a member to shoot if they come as a guest of a member.

There is plenty of space available for camping behind the silhouette range and also by the clubhouse.

w30wcf

[cajun shooter]

Mclintock, John has been testing several bullets over the years and is a man to listen too. I also have a place in my heart for the 44-40 and is my caliber of choice.
I had several problems with the big lubes when I tried to use them at long range instead of the SASS matches I shoot three times a month.
I also tried the 45 Colt but went back to the 44-40. I have found that a .030 overpowder wad works quite well in making accurate loads. I used them all the time in loading 45-70 and a bulb came on to tell me to try them in other calibers.
DD and I parted ways after too many of his deals that only favored him. It took me over 6 months to be paid a refund on a returned mould.
I took the stock original bullet for the 44-40 which is the Lyman 42798 which became the 427098 and redesigned the lube grooves and overall style so that I could have a good long range bullet that would work in the longer barrels. My Uberti 73 is the Brush Popper by Cody and does not have problems.
I called Tom at Accurate Moulds and we had several phone conversations about what I wanted to do. We came up with his catalog 43-210B bullet. I ordered two moulds and a third was sold to John Kort w30wcf.
He tested this bullet at Ridgeway and had very nice results. I have made it the only bullet I shoot in 44-40 now. My moulds are 3 cavity brass and while they carry some weight, I have designed a easier way to use them with out holding all the weight through the process.
Using two moulds will keep the brass moulds from overheating and warping the blocks. Before any one questions Don Mcdowell about his loading, they should be aware that this man shoots BPCR on a regular bases and as he shows right out the rear door. Try using wads!! Later David