.338s Are Kicking My Butt

[BruceB]

There are four .338 moulds in my shed. The famous old Lyman 338320 (200+/-) and 33889 (250 +/-) are keeping company with my old Lee 220 and the new-to-me LBT 234-grain LFN.

Yesterday I took some loads with each of these bullet designs to the range, and I am NOT reporting very much success, even from just 50 yards. With 36 grains of H4895, 33889 was exhibiting boolit-tipping on most rounds from both my Savage and Karen's M70, and the "groups" would do a riot shotgun proud....like, six inches or more from both rifles. 338320 wasn't much better, with a somewhat-lower charge of 34.0 H4895. It was BAD!

Anachronism suggested 15.0 Unique as a nice low-speed load with his (former) LBT mould, so I loaded a few rounds both with and without dacron fill. With filler, the M70 put four rounds into one 3/4" hole but had an uncalled flyer widening the group to 1.6" Without filler, the Unique load in the M70 put four in 7/8", and again an uncalled flyer which made the group 1.7".

With 36.0 H4895, the LBT did much better than the Lymans, but still really not well....five rounds from the Winchester usually landing in 2.5" or so. The Savage was simply shooting wildly and I gave up on it, EXCEPT...... this rifle will be my elk-gitter this fall and I NEED some confidence in the beast. I fired five 200-grain Power Point factory loads, and fortunately found all five in a single hole, center-to-center measurement about 0.5" (still from 50 yards), so I reckon that should ease any worries I had.

The old Lee 220 is the star of the show. I had quite a few leftover Nevada Shoot rounds in Der Schuetzenwagen, so fired some of them in desperation. The Winchester loves 'em, and the Savage (again) is being very coy indeed. I put TWENTY of these into a single (large-ish) hole with the M70, group size about 1.5".... hard to get an accurate measurement. Why 20 rounds? Just so's I could have the empty brass to reload. I reckon I'd best cast up a whole mess of .338s and settle in for a long siege.

It's rather disheartening to TRY to get everything right to the best of one's knowledge...diameter, alloy, BHN, lube, diameter, seating depth, etc., and find that one's rifles are extremely lacking in appreciation for all the effort. Oh well, I guess I can get used to the taste of this humble pie, eventually.

I'M NOT GIVING UP! There are plenty of things to test before putting my moulds on the market...

[Buckshot]

...............BruceB, do you have any Grex, or Grex 'like' filler? What I'm thinking is to try something like a reduced load of WC852 with the Grex to fill the case. A couple years ago I brought up some samples of surplus powders and WC852 (slow) was among them. Did you use them up? I'm sure for that cartridge there must be some 4831 data, and that is what you should compare the slow WC852 to. Extrapolate a reduced charge ie: 1 gr= ~35 fps and fill the balance of the case.

I'm sure I also brought either WC872 or WC860, and I'd start with a 3/4 case load and the ground filler compressed under the slug. You can work up from there. Either do well in the 30-06 with full caseloads. For me, even using the TCCI 5020 ball (slower even then 872/860) in full caseloads the 8x57 with my heavy 240gr cast boolits deliver target accuracy at 1950fps (29" bbl).

I sure think it'd be worth a try.

................Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

...............BruceB, do you have any Grex, or Grex 'like' filler?

I'm sure I also brought either WC872 or WC860, and I'd start with a 3/4 case load and the ground filler compressed under the slug. You can work up from there. Either do well in the 30-06 with full caseloads. For me, even using the TCCI 5020 ball (slower even then 872/860) in full caseloads the 8x57 with my heavy 240gr cast boolits deliver target accuracy at 1950fps (29" bbl).

I sure think it'd be worth a try.

................Buckshot

Ooooh #@'>& .... Grex .... #$@*& ..... and fillers ........................

When it comes to a .338 one needs to consider 4831 as Bullseye and work back accordingly. Especially if we are going hunting.

I think RL25 or H1000 is just crying to shoot 1/2" groups for him at velocities that he won't have to dream about HV loads anymore because he will have one. And he can hunt with it too.

[TCLouis]

BruceB

Have you tried 3031? My Win XTR 338 Mag with 39.0 grains of 3031 or M-9(powder type is interchangable), WLR and the 220 Lee or the Hornday 200 coated flat point will print into a group about the size of my finger nail at 50 yds. As I remember it is in the 1700-1900 fps range. The great thing is that the point of impact is almost exactly the same at 50.

Nothing else has shot close to as well.

Tried Seafire's Blue Dot loads and they shot fair! You may want to try that!

[BruceB]

Thanks for the pointers, y'all.

Rick, I've long since worked my way through the sample surplus powders that you laddies provided. I don't believe any of the stuff ended up in .338 brass, though. I don't see any 852 on the surplus-powder sites these days.

I'll be trying some loads with fast/medium powders soon. 4198 and 3031 will be high on that list. Blue Dot works well in my .32 Special, but I have yet to use it in anything else. Bought a couple pounds of Blue Dot just because of Seafire's experiments, even though his research was with jacketed bullets. Naturally, a few people just HAD to try reaching full-factory velocity with what was supposed to be a REDUCED-load powder, and equally naturally, got themselves into hot water as a result.

With the clear and obvious differences in the rifles' tolerance for CBs, I think I'll concentrate on developing cast-boolit loads in the Model 70 while using the Savage for jacketed hunting-load practice. I expect to put several hundred rounds through it from field positions in the next few months, using my standard el-cheapo 8" paper plates as targets and Hornady bullets in the ammo. An animal will be in serious jeopardy at any distance at which I can reliably hit an object of that size. I'm now leaning to Barnes 225 TSX bullets for elk, based on recent reading.

When I find some useable CB loads in the Winchester, I'll give them a try in the Savage, but I will not be doing parallel load development for both rifles. Besides, maybe after a few hundred full-power loads down its brand-new tube, the Savage could be a bit happier with cast loads. We'll see.

[TCLouis]

I have a RCBS and some other 200 grain flat point molds that I expected great things from.
Both grouped about 3 times larger than the Lee bullets. I just wish the Lee was a flat point for hunting purposes!

[Bass Ackward]

I'll be trying some loads with fast/medium powders soon. 4198 and 3031 will be high on that list.

All,

I had some time (and an interest) so I ran several bullet lengths (1" to 1.25") and weights (200-250) through the computer looking at several powders for a good HV loading. Using criteria that I normally select for selecting powder / loads. The 338 has a very narrow range to work with soft bullets and quite honestly, the powders that look like they will perform best were not what I was expecting. All slower powders stunk .... unless you raised the pressure limit, which of coarse, requires a harder bullet. But the good news is that bullet length and bullet weight made little difference in the findings. These powders work for everything and are relatively insensitive to seating depth as far as raising pressures.

For bullets, I chose ACWW pressure ranges between 28,000 and 32,000 psi because the bullets may be weaker bore ride designs. From the commonly available powders, two stood out and there was a distant third.

1. IMR 4831 62 - 66 grains

2. RL 19 - 62 - 66 grains

2000 to 2250 fps from a 24" tube. Add 50 fps for 26". Either is just about equal, but the load density winner would be the IMR 4831.



3. IMR 3031 44 - 46 grains But this is only slightly over 50% load density and will probably require a ...... filler.

If anyone tries this, my technique would be to use a magnum pistol primer because you get the heat without the concussion. Otherwise, cut the ranges by 1 1/2 grains. A MPP allows the expanding powder to start the bullet moving instead of the primer. Let us know how it works out.

[BruceB]

Bass;

Thanks for posting this info. I'm not too worried about pushing the CB speed into the 2300-plus area, but a good load running at 2000 or so would be a treasure, especially with a 220-plus-grain bullet. That would really make a fine deer load, I betcha. I'm going to concentrate on load development with the Lee 220 and LBT 234 bullets, for now.

IMR 4831 is one of my "standard" powders, and always on hand. RL-19 has never been used in my shop...there are TOO MANY danged powders to keep track of already. 3031 was a stock item in my cabinet years ago, but fell into disuse in my loading. I went down and bought two pounds on the strength of your recommendation.

I note that you specified air-cooled WW, and this is interesting. Usually when projected speeds get above 2000 fps or so, most folks seem to harden their boolits to some degree. Again, an UNhardened bullet travelling over 2300 fps would be a prime hunting load, assuming it did so without leading and with decent accuracy.

Seems to me it would be fairly easy to make some sort of die to use while filing flat noses on the bullets of loaded rounds. If nothing else, I'm CERTAIN that Buckshot could come up with something is short order. Perhaps an existing seater die could have the top cut off so the neck area of the case is still supported while the bullet nose projects out the top for filing? Such a modified die would allow easy adjustment of the amount filed from the noses, too.

On the subject of hunting loads, and slipping off-topic for this site, I found that I have on hand some Nosler Ballistic Tip 200s and some Speer 225 spirepoints in the non-premium (practice) category. These were loaded today over 74 and 72 grains of IMR 4831 respectively, for a total of eighty rounds. Also have 210 and 250 Partitions, as well as 200 and 250-grain old-style X-bullets from ten years or more back.

I submitted to the siren call of the newer Barnes TSX and ordered a box of them in 225-grain format for tests in the search for my elk load, along with a couple hundred Hornady 225 spirepoints for additional field-position practice. I intend to be READY, by gum. My hunting rounds will most likely contain a heavy dose of IMR 4350, which offers a tad more speed than IMR4831 at good pressure in the .338. Those 72-74 charges of 4831 use up all available volume in the W-W .338 brass, and are heavily compressed by the 200-225 bullets. Final powder choice will also depend on reasonable accuracy, of course.

One summer a long while back, I was equally determined to be "ready" for moose season in the NWT and fired at least 300 jacketed .30-06 loads at all ranges from all positions out to over 300 yards....and I WAS "ready"! Came the day I met the bull moose, and I killed it cleanly from....forty FEET. Still, it's always a good feeling to know that one is well-prepared to do what needs doing when the time comes.

Thanks again for the data.

[Bass Ackward]

I note that you specified air-cooled WW, and this is interesting. Usually when projected speeds get above 2000 fps or so, most folks seem to harden their boolits to some degree.

Again, an UNhardened bullet travelling over 2300 fps would be a prime hunting load, assuming it did so without leading and with decent accuracy.


Thanks again for the data.

Bruce,

I saw that you specified ACWW for hunting in another post. From my experience, 12 BHN craps at 32,000 psi. 14 BHN craps at 34,000 assuming a good lube and smooth tube. I am not familiar with the LEE, but the LBT would be my choice. With your case volume you can work up in 1 grain increments so it won't take long. Use 3 shots for the trials. And don't be afraid to go on up a couple of grains because I bracketed these loads for 250 grains and then just plugged in the lower values to see how far pressure dropped. So the 235 might actually withstand another 3 grains. I assumed you would be one of those 250 types.

The most common mistake made by people wanting higher velocities is to go to a harder bullet right off. My big advantage is Quickload because I can watch pressure.

HINT: BIGGEST MONEY SAVER ON THE FACE OF THE PLANET FOR WORKING UP LOADS.

For those folks that can't, they try higher velocity with a powder not knowing pressures. Then when the bullets go wild because of pressure, they automatically assume they need a harder bullet. My 210s in my Whelen go 2300 and my 265s are running at 2050 with all the other weights in between. All at less than MOA. Your slightly higher case to bore ratio should allow that easily and maybe bump the range up to 2400 fps. Take the accuracy where you get it. You can toughen the bullet by adding shot or tin to handle the impact or extend you minimum distance.

The "highest", accurate, velocity potential will always be with the lightest bullet because of inertia. In my wife's Howa 06, she shoots the 135 gr, 311440HP into 1 3/4" at 2900 fps with 14 BHN. And doesn't go over 34,000 psi to do it.

[9.3X62AL]

I remarked in a different thread a few days ago that I had poor luck using the RCBS 200 FN in the 338, in spite of the boolit's fine work in a Win 86 x 33 WCF. The tests I did were limited in scope--mostly pistol powders--and my knowledge of rifle boolit work was pretty limited, too. I would be curious to see what the 338 would do with some dacron to keep the powder from moving all over that ZIP Code-sized casing--how 2400 would fare in the application--and how a nearly-full or full case of the Kingsford Charcoals (WC-860, WC-872, IMR-5010) would make the boolits work.

[BruceB]

Well, rats.

As per Bass's recommendation, I took some IMR 4831 loads to the range today, to be fired in the M70 Super Grade's 26" barrel..

Charges were 60.0, 62.0, 64.0, and 66.0, using W-W large PISTOL primers and the boolits were the LBT 234-grain LFN in water-dropped WW sized .3385", and carrying Felix lube in three of its four grooves. Only the 66.0 charge had aircooled WW boolits from the latest production run. I used a tiny tuft of dacron in the 60- and 62-grain loads but the cases were almost full from the 64-grain charge upwards, so no dacron in them. Boolits were seated to contact the leade (light marks on boolits and light "feel" on bolt handle).

Started with the 60 charge from fifty yards, and it was a good thing I did because the group was about six inches with two out of five off the left edge of the target paper on my fresh cardboard backer. 62 grains "grouped" (!) a bit tighter at about four inches, but 64 was ALL over the place, sprawling to eight inches or more...never did find where two of them went! I fired five of the 66.0 load just for laughs, but it wasn't very amusing...again, two vanished into never-never land, and there was bright metallic lead ringing the muzzle which I PEELED off. At that point I quit to clean the bore, and brought the remaining ammo home for disassembly.

Obviously, THIS rifle hasn't gotten the word about IMR 4831. The pistol primers apparently gave perfect ignition, and didn't flatten much, either. Interesting.

I didn't have the chrono in service because its going through yet another rebuild of the 11-foot screen-mounting boom. (The newest [Mark IV?] iteration uses a 15-foot fiberglas extendable paint-roller handle..seems like it'll work just fine.) I think the speed was WAY up there today. The chrono boom is almost complete as of this afternoon, so the next range session will give me some hard info. In fact, instead of breaking down the remaining rounds from this session, I'll save them for chronographing....I've cleaned barrels before, and I can do it again.

Also fired fifty factory-level .338 jacketed loads from the Savage to open my summer-long elk-preparation-regime. I'm pleased to say that I was hitting 8" paper plates reliably (90%) from 100 yards in sitting and kneeling positions. I know that's not much to brag about, but my non-benchrest shooting has been sadly neglected for too long. Somehow I contrived to fire a round without my muffs....the incredible muzzleblast immediately convinced me that I WILL NOT DO THAT AGAIN. The brake works great, and there's an impressive amount of back-blast past the shooter on every shot. My poor, ringing ears!!!

Hey, if it was all easy in this hobby, there wouldn't be near as much fun involved, y'know? I must acknowledge that the Winchester rifle is still reflecting the title of this thread, though. Bass, thanks for your efforts to guide this poor heathen. I'm not giving up....

[StarMetal]

Bruce

Disregard what is logical and try those Bass loads again except with a harder bullet. Also try your faster powder loads and don't forget 4895, it's a good powder. Report back. One more thing, I'd stay away from the Grex and use a bigger tuff of Dacron.

Joe

[onceabull]

BruceB: well darrnnitt !!, I keep on hoping for total capitulation,and a sweet package deal on 338 moulds northbound to Idaho !! Interesting following along on these trials though,and ,unless something positive shows up, I'll start rethinking how badly I need to be in that particular game.... Best thing noted in our recent travels was 4 BigHorn rams at handgun range uphill side of hway xxx about 3 miles outside East Entrance Yellowstone, (at least two were full curl ) Snowing hard at the time and got right dicey as we climbed and descended through Sylvan Pass.. Quick tour of firearms section @BuffaloBill Museum in Cody revealed some interesting(to me) additions since last tour , RECOMMENDED TO ALL.. Lack of time and lack of interest by fellow travelers kept me away from the Linebaughs,and Ballards..Just as well,still have some $ !!!! Onceabull

[waksupi]

Maybe you will have some luck. I never could get my M70 Winchester .338 to liking cast bullets. So, I no longer own it.

[Scrounger]

Well, rats.

As per Bass's recommendation, I took some IMR 4831 loads to the range today, to be fired in the M70 Super Grade's 26" barrel..

Charges were 60.0, 62.0, 64.0, and 66.0, using W-W large PISTOL primers and the boolits were the LBT 234-grain LFN in water-dropped WW sized .3385", and carrying Felix lube in three of its four grooves. Only the 66.0 charge had aircooled WW boolits from the latest production run. I used a tiny tuft of dacron in the 60- and 62-grain loads but the cases were almost full from the 64-grain charge upwards, so no dacron in them. Boolits were seated to contact the leade (light marks on boolits and light "feel" on bolt handle).

Started with the 60 charge from fifty yards, and it was a good thing I did because the group was about six inches with two out of five off the left edge of the target paper on my fresh cardboard backer. 62 grains "grouped" (!) a bit tighter at about four inches, but 64 was ALL over the place, sprawling to eight inches or more...never did find where two of them went! I fired five of the 66.0 load just for laughs, but it wasn't very amusing...again, two vanished into never-never land, and there was bright metallic lead ringing the muzzle which I PEELED off. At that point I quit to clean the bore, and brought the remaining ammo home for disassembly.

Obviously, THIS rifle hasn't gotten the word about IMR 4831. The pistol primers apparently gave perfect ignition, and didn't flatten much, either. Interesting.

I didn't have the chrono in service because its going through yet another rebuild of the 11-foot screen-mounting boom. (The newest [Mark IV?] iteration uses a 15-foot fiberglas extendable paint-roller handle..seems like it'll work just fine.) I think the speed was WAY up there today. The chrono boom is almost complete as of this afternoon, so the next range session will give me some hard info. In fact, instead of breaking down the remaining rounds from this session, I'll save them for chronographing....I've cleaned barrels before, and I can do it again.

Also fired fifty factory-level .338 jacketed loads from the Savage to open my summer-long elk-preparation-regime. I'm pleased to say that I was hitting 8" paper plates reliably (90%) from 100 yards in sitting and kneeling positions. I know that's not much to brag about, but my non-benchrest shooting has been sadly neglected for too long. Somehow I contrived to fire a round without my muffs....the incredible muzzleblast immediately convinced me that I WILL NOT DO THAT AGAIN. The brake works great, and there's an impressive amount of back-blast past the shooter on every shot. My poor, ringing ears!!!

Hey, if it was all easy in this hobby, there wouldn't be near as much fun involved, y'know? I must acknowledge that the Winchester rifle is still reflecting the title of this thread, though. Bass, thanks for your efforts to guide this poor heathen. I'm not giving up....


Sounds like a lot of powder to me, not as for as safety, but enough to get those bullets running too fast. You didn't mention a speed but it could be 2100-2200fps, which is a little faster than we normally expect cast bullets to work well. At 1600 fps it might well be a different story. A .30-30 with a case full of 4831 would be a good low pressure load and shoot cast well. But in the cavernous .338, 4831 ain't exactly a slow powder. 5010 or something like that might work out for cast.

[StarMetal]

Scrounger voiced exactly what I was thinking too. Those powder charges were basically light jacketed loads. Like I said go against logic, forget the computer whiz stuff, and try faster rifle powders and harder alloy.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Well, rats.

As per Bass's recommendation, I took some IMR 4831 loads to the range today, to be fired in the M70 Super Grade's 26" barrel..

Charges were 60.0, 62.0, 64.0, and 66.0, using W-W large PISTOL primers and the boolits were the LBT 234-grain LFN in water-dropped WW sized .3385", and carrying Felix lube in three of its four grooves.

Obviously, THIS rifle hasn't gotten the word about IMR 4831. The pistol primers apparently gave perfect ignition, and didn't flatten much, either. Interesting.



Bruce,

OK. So it didn't work. You did it exaclty as I would have done except the 10 load thing. The next step is to match the computer program to the variables of your gun. What I would like is for you to get a velocity reading on a single powder charge. Then I can adjust the shot start pressure for your gun and load to actually get the pressure correct. OF coarse, you can just adjust for that velocity with the 4831 and you will know that you are running those pressures. Same thing really, but I can't generate multiple loads without it.

From your ignition comments it seems that you feel you were way above 2200 fps. You might have been because the burn rate percentage should have been 95% which I expected to leave some unburned powder.

Your call Bruce. If you are willing to work at this, I can run the data for you until we really get you in a real 28k - 32k working range. Cause you should not be leading at 32.000 psi even with NRA formula. I still think 4831 will work if we just get the pressure correct.

I think the process is .... entertaining if others don't find it informative. But limit yourself to just 3 shots so you aren't wasting components. 3 shots will tell you what you need to know, then fine tune. And it would be more accurate if you have ACWW to run the velocity test.

Added: And don't take this the wrong way, but because you were so far out on pressure and actually leading, are you sure that you have all the copper out? It would cause some of what we are seeing.

[Scrounger]

What is it you're trying to do, Bruce, just find a starting point for lead bullets? Why didn't you ask? Try this:

200gr lead 28gr XMP 5744 (Very low pressure. You could substitute IMR 4227 or SR 4759 safely)
56gr IMR 4350
72gr AA8700 (substitute H870 if you want)
This data is from the Accurate Arms manual. All the above loads are starting level and they are definitely low pressure. Now if it was me doing this and I wanted to jump from there to a 250 grain bullet, I wouldn't have any qualms at all in loading 65 to 70 grains of H870 (or WC860) behind that 250 grain bullet. As a starting load. They show 77 to 80 grains of AA8700 as Max loads with 2 jacketed bullets of 250 grains. So dropping it 10 to 15 grains ( to the 65 to 70 grain charge I recommended ) leaves a very large safety margin. I wouldn't even try to explain this to someone who hasn't reloaded, AND UNDERSTOOD WHAT THEY WERE DOING, for many years.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Bruce, Peelable lead only showed up once in a barrel of mine, but that was from undersize bore riders in a MG Marlin .30/30. I can't contribute anything to ease your .338 trials and tribulations, but your Wapiti workout is Herculean! FIFTY fulll power rounds per range visit? You da (iron) man! I got in my second preparation session today: four and twenty .38/55 High Speed level CB rounds from the .35 Whelen, followed by cleaning, and a trifling ten full power 250 gr. Speers. I'm about 80% (offhand @ 100) on the "Frosty the Snowman" paper plates left over from Christmas. (Frosty's grinning face makes an aiming point well suited to a 4X scope.) Next session will feature sitting and kneeling, but not the formal contortions of long ago High Power. Finished up with twenty from the deer rifle-the one that will require the most practice. It's such a light little fly swatter of a .260 Remington as to demand utmost concentration.

[BruceB]

Time to catch up with some comments made on this thread.

Bass: I'll be continuing this series according to your recommendations, but won't have a chrono reading before Saturday. I'm working dayshift starting in about two hours, continuing through Friday, and then transitioning to night shift on Saturday night through the following Wednesday night. Busy times!

Now gentlemen, many of your suggestions have already been addressed. Ya see where I talked about shooting Unique, and 4895, and buying 3031? Or, in just my latest post, that I detailed how three of the four 4831 loads DID use water-dropped boolits?

The present campaign with the .338 is intended to POSSIBLY identify a decent game load for, perhaps, deer-size critters, and my "preferred" speed for this WITH A SOFT-ISH BULLET is somewhere over 2000 fps. I've long-since found loads that perform fairly well in the M70 at lower speeds, including ones with 2400, 5744, 4198 etc. Bass Ackward is offering advice on a different sort of load with 4831, and I am simply trying various avenues and learning as I go. Recent testing with 4831 and cast boolits in my Garand leads me to believe there are also possibilities with other cartridges, and I want to find out. 4831 is not really a slow-burner in the .338.

I've also been thinking about H870/AA870 etc, since yesterday, just as Scrounger mentioned. Dang it, I'm gonna have to place a surplus powder order, I guess. Canister-grade commercial powders are too darned expensive for 60-80 grains per round!

Y'all are very correct...66 grains of 4831 in the .338 is NOT a light load, and in fact is only four to six grains below the 200-225 grain jacketed-bullet loads I fired yesterday... with a heavier bullet, yet (234 grains).

The Large Pistol primers impressed me, I must say. That's quite a powder charge to light up, compared to five grains of peestol powder in a .45 ACP!

I'm not gonna lose sleep if I can't identify a soft-boolit cast .338 load that I can live with. Even monster Alberta white-tails will be susceptible to my elk load, I'm sure....

Curmudgeon, I didn't really intend to fire that many rounds, but once I got started it was such fun and so DIFFERENT from bench-shooting that I just kept on going. Also, the muzzle brake is VERY effective...I have no discomfort at all today. Getting home, and after my ears stopped ringing, I gave some thought to exhuming our Anschutz .22 sporter from its resting place, and using .22LR for at least some of the practice. Maybe I'll give that a try.

[Bass Ackward]

Time to catch up with some comments made on this thread.

Bass: I'll be continuing this series according to your recommendations, but won't have a chrono reading before Saturday.

The Large Pistol primers impressed me, I must say. That's quite a powder charge to light up, compared to five grains of peestol powder in a .45 ACP!

I'm not gonna lose sleep if I can't identify a soft-boolit cast .338 load that I can live with. Even monster Alberta white-tails will be susceptible to my elk load, I'm sure....



Bruce,

Your pace.

I just came up from weighing magnum cases. My Norma cases in 458 X2 weight and average of 192 grains. My Remingtons weight an average of 215 grains. So after doing the math, thats 23 grains of "potential" case volume difference. I guess that would affect pressure some.

Pistol primers are the most frightening thing for cast rifle shooters right after soft bullets. Any brand of pistol primers are more accurate from shot to shot than a rifle primer. They have less .... brilliance. That's French for heat to ignite the powder without concusion. And since we are just trying for pistol pressures anyway, why not use a pistol primer? All of my cast rifle loads are done with magnum pistol primers. But we can play "best primer" later.

[BruceB]

Bass;

Chronograph readings for 60.0 IMR 4831, WLP primer. 234-grain LBT water-dropped LFN, from 26" M70: avg 2075, extreme spread 136, std dev 66

For 66.0 IMR 4831, WLP primer, 234-grain UNHARDENED LBT LFN:
avg 2291, es 142, sd 55

The chronograph is working OK, reporting factory 200 P-P .338 loads at 2840 avg, sd 34.

All above results are from five-round strings.

[Buckshot]

..........BA, I think the word you're looking for is "brisance". Actually it's not so much to do with heat but with the suddenness (and that's a poor descriptor) of the explosion or ignition of the primer. Less brisance is less shattering an event.

..............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

Bass;

Chronograph readings: avg 2075, extreme spread 136, std dev 66

For 66.0 IMR 4831, WLP primer, 234-grain UNHARDENED LBT LFN:
avg 2291, es 142, sd 55



Bruce,

Well .... that is pretty much .... dead on from a velocity standpoint. At first it sounded as though we were way off based on recoil and leading. So .... logically, I would say that we need to stop the leading and then correct for the ignition problem. Clearly, you should show no signs of lead at these pressures no matter what lube you are using.

The first logical step, is to hold down your powder charge and change primer. But personally, I think I would go diameter first because it will affect ignition as well. How much flexibility do you have to change diameter? I believe that you said you were using .3385. Since you are shooting soft, I would increase that to at least .339. This would improve ignition with any powder you chose to try later too. All of my high velocity loads generally require +.001 to .0015 over bore no matter what throat size actually is. Then try primer if you still can't get realistic ES. That's how I would go about it if it were me.

I would limit myself to 60, 61, and 62 grain loads until this is completed. You will be able to spot any trends in accuracy and it will save time, powder, and lead removal. You can see what diameter your gun prefers best. Once you are satisfied you have peeked diameter out for accuracy, (what ever that is) try the complete powder range of 60 to 66 grains again by 1 grain increments noting where groups just "start" to open up again. This will identify the peek pressure for that hardness level in your gun. Then I can set that as a pressure ceiling in the program and ask the computer to run the gambit on powders so you can try anything else you want to and you will know the top. That will narrow your experimentation if we still haven't gotten good results from the 4831. How about giving me the OAL loaded after you settle the diameter question and the length of that bullet in .000 so this can be dead on. I am guessing that diameter change will mean a slight reduction in OAL.

One thing to also bear in mind if anyone wants to try to develop one of these HV loads is that seating depth affects pressure to. Much more so than how hard the bullet engraves. That is "my" process. I still expect the 4831 to work well once these things are ironed out.

[Bass Ackward]

..........BA, I think the word you're looking for is "brisance". Actually it's not so much to do with heat but with the suddenness (and that's a poor descriptor) of the explosion or ignition of the primer. Less brisance is less shattering an event.

..............Buckshot

Rick,

Yea. You are right. That was what I was trying to say. Heat to ignite without the force or concussion or duration. Less event. All goes along with my theme of starting a cast bullet off as slowly as possible.

And I can't spell or type in English little alone a language where they never spell stuff the way it sounds. :grin: Thank goodness you are French huh?