belling a case mouth?

[Thompsoncustom]

Hello everyone this is my first post and I would just like to say this is a great forum with a lot of information.

I'm very new to reloading and have not fully reloaded any rounds yet but have but getting stuff over time and going in slow steps. Well the other day my Lee 9mm mold came in and I cast some boolits which I think turned out great but I thought I would try to seat one and see how it worked. I use a Lee hand Loader as I don't have a press at this time so I tired to beat the bullet into the case and it worked but I think it pushed the case mouth out a little and cut some of the lead off the bullet. Don't worry the case wasn't primed or have any powder was just trying to get my seating depth. Well I did some more reading and I found that you have to bell the mouth. How would you recommend doing that? with hand tools of course and I just chamfered the case mouth with a pocket knife should a get a chamfer tool instead? I'm in no hurry I know lee loaders are slow just the idea of doing it all by hand sounds nice. Thanks Dan

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

there are several ways to do this , the easiest and most repeatable are on a press , a case expanding powder thru die would be a good choice and comes with the 4 die pistol sets from lee , a lee universal flaring die another good choice , other manufacturers make similar solutions

for simple but effective a needle nose pliers placed in the case mouth and the casing rotated flares ok

anything you can place in the case mouth that would give you even flair all the way around without damaging the case , your not trying to expand it much just get the top lip pushed back so that it doesn't shave your lead , some times a heavy champher is enough depending on how big your boolit is

[KCSO]

Cheapest method I have found is to put a dummy 50 cal in the neck and tap it with the palm of your hand, instant bell. Lee makes a universal die for this and I use a mini arbor press with depth stop for my target loads.

[P.K.]

Cheapest method I have found is to put a dummy 50 cal in the neck and tap it with the palm of your hand, instant bell. Lee makes a universal die for this and I use a mini arbor press with depth stop for my target loads.

+1. $11.27 from Mid-South. Picking mine up next week.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Another method for putting a bell on the case mouth is to use a needle-nose pliers or any pliers that has a conical nose when closed. The handles afford a good and comfortable grip to turn or apply pressure. Also some light duty hammers have a conical or wedge shaped face on one side and that will work too with the lightest of tap on the case mouth or placing the case mouth on it and tapping the case. LLS

[Mk42gunner]

Thompsoncustom, welcome aboard.

Since you are loading 9mm and the cases are pretty short, neeedlenose pliers might be to long to put a flare on your cases. I think I would try using a center punch, some of them have a pretty rapid taper so they would work.

You don't need a lot of flare, just enough to get the base of the boolit into the case.

Robert

[edler7]

Get a small ball peen hammer, put the ball end in the case mouth. Tap it with another hammer.

[uscra112]

An old-timer's trick was to place a suitably sized steel ball on the neck and give it a light tap with a mallet. I still do this from time to time if only doing a few cases and the Lyman M-die is not in the press. Ball should be about 20% bigger than the I.D. of the case mouth. (Don't hit too hard, or you'll spoil the case.)

With 9mm, make sure to swage the flare back in so the round will chamber, but not too much or it won't headspace properly. Your seating die should do this, but make sure.

[Thompsoncustom]

Thanks for the idea's I have some punches and ball peen hammers so I might start there. Can't use any dies I don't think because I don't have a press only a lee HAND loader. I guess another thing I worry about if the case being over sized after you bell the case? Would it be better to resize the bullet? My mold is a Lee TL356-124-2R
and it said that you shouldn't need to resize the bullet so should I try to resize the case after the bullet have been seated? or is this not going to be a problem?

[DLCTEX]

Don't resize the boolit unless it is grossly oversized (more than.003 or .004 over). I have used an empty rifle brass to flare case mouths.

[shovel80]

get a set of dies for the caliber....they make them for the hand tool...don't they?
Terry

[Sonnypie]

Welcome Dan,
I go way back to the Lee Classic Reloaders in a box. Still have my 12 gauge kit, and Dads 20 gauge.
When You say Lee Hand Loader, are you meaning the hand press that takes dies (http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Breech-Lock-Hand-Press.html)?
Or the old Lee Classic Reloader? (http://youtu.be/0-LA2G_Sy4I)
If you mean the classic set up, there should be a case mouth flaring tool in the kit.
If you watch the link above, you can see it in use (but it goes by really quick).
If you mean the Lee Hand Loader (http://youtu.be/K6IoNCtFHwU), then it is a matter of die adjustment to get the proper flare from the operation.
Either way, you only want the tiniest amount so the boolit base can begin it's entry without shaving lead. That flaring is barely perceptible to the eye, but it is there alright. If the case looks belled, you have too much.

So which is it?
When I first began reloading 9mm, I got a Lee Hand Loader, and a set of carbide dies.
Either way is a good way to start out.:D

[Mk42gunner]

Don't resize the boolit unless it is grossly oversized (more than.003 or .004 over). I have used an empty rifle brass to flare case mouths.

Great minds think alike. I was in a store this evening and happened to walk by the tool aisle. I thoght about this and took a look at the small amount of punches on display, when it hit me-- use a .308 case to bell the 9mm brass.

I think I have read of this in one of my older gun books also, the author had necked down a .30-06 case in three or four steps, then filled it with lead. The steps would not be necessary in this instance.

Robert

[Thompsoncustom]

Thanks for all the help guys and to answer some questions it's a Lee classic loader like the one in the video above, tho the 9mm don't come with a flaring tool or at least mine did not and I bought it brand new.

Well sounds like there's a lot of different ways to do the same thing I haven't figured out which one I'm going to do yet but I might run over to the local farm and fleet and find a punch just for belling the case.

[Thompsoncustom]

Ah even better news I seen some of you said you used old rifle cases so I looked around my house for a spent case from my mosin and it seems to work great. Thanks again for the help.

[Boolseye]

OK–now that you've got case-belling suggestions, get ready to reload one of the most challenging cast boolit calibers (9mm)with one of the most challenging cast boolits (TL356-124-2R). I just want to make you aware that the .38 special this ain't. Not a very forgiving combination. If you start getting keyholes, it ain't your fault. This is a pretty high-maintenance round. I recommend you buy one of the standard lube groove molds, say the 356-120 TC or 356-124 -2R (not tumble lube) or even a box of (shudder) j-words. I just want you to have a good experience out of the gate. I have your boolits sister, the TL356-124TC, and it took time and care to get it shooting right. It needs the right powder, right charge, right size...but don't let me discourage you! You will learn all of this on your own, regardless. HAppy casting, reloading and shooting!
-jp

[canyon-ghost]

If you seat the bullet deep, watch the powder charge on 9mm. The limited case length can generate pressure quickly.

Have done 9mm too.

Good Luck

[Thompsoncustom]

Any reason this mold is any harder then any other mold? Anything more I need to know? I plan on running federal sp primers, haven't picked out a powder yet.... And I have alox lube but I was thinking about mixing it with sc johnsons paste wax if I can find any.

[Boolseye]

Yes, basically the 9mm tumble lube boolits can be a little problematic–it's not insurmountable, but they do tend to keyhole if they aren't sized to the right diameter, if the right powder isn't used or if they're driven too hard (they will also lead you barrel if they're going too fast). Here's what worked for me with my TL356-124TC: Unsized (they drop from the mold at about .357), AA#5 or #7 powder, low charges (4.8 gr. #5, 6.5 gr. #7), a light crimp and seating the boolit with a couple of micro-grooves showing. Again, this is the TC, not the 2R, so your experience will be different. In general, I would suggest fairly light loads of a slow burning powder, as I said, AA #5 or #7 work great for me. The paste wax/Alox lube works great (45-45-10 is a proven mixture), and who knows, you may have great success right away. If you search the forum on this topic you will find many posts and threads on the topic.
-jp

[Sonnypie]

As a side note...
I was doing some fine tuning and experimenting yesterday at my reloading bench.
(I only reload 30-06 and 45 ACP now.)
I've been working on some "fire formed" casings, and neck sizing just 3/16" of the case neck to grip the boolits I'm loading. (170 and 120 grain cast) And seating the boolits at my lands and groove depth of my rifle's chamber.
I decided to make my own case mouth expander die for my operation. I used a cheap, ergo soft, 5/16" straight pin punch for its nice bell at the hexagon handle end.
I had these brass turnings that have been around for as long as I can remember and found that one of them would screw into an old, broken Herter's decapping die.
So I chucked up the brass and bored it for an interference fit, cut down the handle of the punch length, and set the punch into the brass adapter.
Once tested, I took the new assembly out of the die and polished it.
I now have my true expander die to just slightly flare (not bell) my rifle cases after my neck sizing.
Today my Lee factory crimp die will be here and I can proceed with finishing loading these cases.

Incidentally, if you should over-do your case mouth expansion, your crimping die will scold you by not liking the rounds going into it. It is a very fine line.
Follow the data with the set first, experiment after you have a couple under your belt.
A couple of decades of reloading... ;)
Proceed at your own pace. :smile:

[popper]

For 9mm, I would suggest you spring for a press and dies. The whack-loader will be too slow and error-prone(get a impact puller, you will need it). Seriously, a small capacity tapered case, fired from a semi-auto - lots to go wrong. The Lee hand press is a pain to use seating pistol bullets without spilling powder everywhere. Save yourself a lot of trouble and get a proper bench mounted press.

[Boolseye]

I've been working on some "fire formed" casings, and neck sizing just 3/16" of the case neck to grip the boolits
Sonny: I know we're off on a bit of a tangent here, but that interests me. Are you going for extreme accuracy?

For 9mm, I would suggest you spring for a press and dies. Popper definitely has a point, but there's something nice about the simplicity of the Lee Loader, and he'll learn all the basics with it. It's what I started with, and I still pull them out from time to time.

[Sonnypie]

Sonny: I know we're off on a bit of a tangent here, but that interests me. Are you going for extreme accuracy?


More like Goosing Butterflies and Painting Rainbows. [smilie=l:

Accuracy has always been my goal. But somewhere, somebody came up and made me old. :sad:

Trying the newer tricks that folks are using. Instead of full length resizing, I'm trying backing out the dies I have, removing the neck expander ball and decapper and just putting a pinch on the neck. Probably more like a 1/4" or so. (9) (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny's/PB020363.JPG) (See the neck in the picture. It's easy to see the dies work on just the neck area.)
(I have a different die I decap with prior to cleaning the cases. Then the cases get the rest of the steps towards reloading.)
Then just enough flare to let my boolits gas checks set into the neck so they can be seated to my rifles lands and grooves. And the old dies take out some of that flare at the top of the bullet seating's stroke.
Then the new Lee factory crimp die finishes the neck. That thing is nice! It is a collet that does just the neck as the press pushes the full length collet (inside the die) from below.
So... instead of the boolit being pushed down into the case, and the case crammed into a bottle neck to achieve the crimp. The boolit is seated by the normal seating die to its set OAL length. Almost no crimp takes place as the boolit is seated. The flare is reduced very slightly by the seating die.

I partially seated some, then chambered the round to allow the chamber, lands and grooves, and headspace all come together in the rifle. Then set my seating die depth to the result.

I re-checked as I went along to make sure I was getting what I wanted.
The seating die for the particular boolit was also set to just put a tiny pinch on the flare. I'm currently loading 2 weights of boolits, and using different dies for them.

Then the next step with the new Lee die finished the round and gave the case a beautiful straight crimp without the opposing forces of just a seating/crimping die alone.
It adds a lot of steps, and die changes, but I got it all working for me. And I'm really happy with the boolit's base placement in the neck.

Goes like this:
1. Come home from shooting and decap the brass and get it tumbling. Clean the firearms and stow. I usually have multiple loads.
2. When the brass is done, change loads and rack the cleaned brass in front of a 20" fan to dry. Add the next load as they are finished. Inspect as racking.
3. Neck sizing all brass, inspection, culling. Also OAL checking.
4. Flaring, only the tiniest amount to allow the boolits to enter without shaving. (I have no M-die. So I made my own die.) (8) (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny's/PB020360.JPG)
5. Priming. By hand with Lee priming tool. (Old school round type primer tools) I like to feel the primers seat.
6. Powder and load selection for selected brass. I sort as I prep to tumble and keep the brass separated.
I usually like to do lots, like 50 rounds or so of one load. It works best for my set-up. And random powder weight checks after a rack is charged with my powder measure, and a rod to check the level in each case. (I have a very responsible position. If anything goes wrong, I'm responsible :wink: )
7. A powdered rack of brass goes to the C-Press and gets the bullets seated. (I prefer to not let brass sit around open with powder in it) Today I did around 200 rounds of 30-06 with 3 different loads to this point while waiting on the postman with the Lee FCD.
Mostly with one boolit weight, and different powders. And one rack of lighter boolits with a different powder that uses a different seating die. I am almost settled on my lighter boolit load, but I like to play.
8. So I had lots of ammo to run through the new crimping die. Fortunately, one setting does all cases. I lubed the moving parts inside the FCD with some oil, just a drop, as I set to work doing the finish crimps and checking each round.
9. Final inspection and wipe down of each round. Setting the racks of fresh reloads aside for packing in the range bags.

The ads don't really do justice, nor explain what occurs within the die. As the loaded round fully enters the FCD, the ram/shell holder contacts the protruding collet base. (1) (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny's/PB020352.JPG) That begins the collet raising in the stationary part of the die. (2) (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny's/PB020353.JPG) (3) (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny's/PB020354.JPG)
As the collet raises, along with the round, the top begins to close around the neck of the case forming it to the boolit. (4) (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny's/PB020357.JPG), (5) (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny's/PB020355.JPG)
At the very top of the motion, the collet is fully closed (6) (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny's/PB020356.JPG), the ram of the press is topped out, and the case neck is is formed uniformly around the boolit. (7) (http://home.earthlink.net/~pie/Sonny's/PB020361.JPG)

The claim is every round has a more consistent release and the pressure is better able to build just prior to the bullet beginning to move into the barrel.
I think it will work, and I think it is a vast improvement over the old way Seating/Crimping dies work.
But my old school ways and the tedium of doing batch work is not for the slam-bam progressive crowd. It takes a LOT of focus.
But I'm not completely bass-akwards. I do use an old progressive to reload my 45's. (RCBS Auto 4X4, circa the early 1990's)

I just love the mechanics of it all, and playing on ideas.
That is, when I'm not Goosing Butterfly's . . . . . ;-)

[3006guns]

I learned years ago that the flair should only be noticable if the case is held to the light. In fact, it's more "seen" than "felt"...just big enough to do the job, but still get into the seating die.

[Boolseye]

Yeah, there's that point at which the expander will really start bending the case mouth out into a little flower. Too much flair.

[mosinman]

If I missed it in this long thread I apologize, but has anyone mentioned chamfering case mouths before the flaring step?

mosinman

[Boolseye]

Chamfering with handgun cases is overkill, IMHO. I only use that tool for rifle cases.

[DLCTEX]

I find that I need less flare when I chamfer case mouths even on pistol cases. I like to work the case as little as possible. I flare just enough to get the boolit started cleanly.

[smithywess]

An old-timer's trick was to place a suitably sized steel ball on the neck and give it a light tap with a mallet. I still do this from time to time if only doing a few cases and the Lyman M-die is not in the press. Ball should be about 20% bigger than the I.D. of the case mouth. (Don't hit too hard, or you'll spoil the case.)

With 9mm, make sure to swage the flare back in so the round will chamber, but not too much or it won't headspace properly. Your seating die should do this, but make sure.


This has been an interesting thread. I use your 'old timer's' trick to very slightly bell my .32 Cal. gas checks because before sizing I found I couldn't get the check on the base of my .323" gas check cast bullets that I fire in a vintage .32-40 Model of 1893. Whilst the old timers may have used a round ball I've found that a suitably sized round screw head works well if it's upended into the gas check, on a hard surface, and the point of the screw tapped with a small hammer. It doesn't need much and the flare on the gas check is flattened when it gets crimped on in the bullet sizer.
A little off topic but what the heck !!