Swedish Roller 12.7 x 44mm

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Well, I'm happy to report that I got my new toy today. I was a bit apprehensive buying 'on line' without having an opportunity to inspect, but for the price I got an 1874 rifle (yep, 137 years young) that was better than described, metal work and stampings are very clear, carry a lot original blue, wood is near unmarked with original finish, and a mirror finish bore that is just unbelievable, no pitting or dark patches anywhere:-P

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/SwedeRB_1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/SwedeRB_2.jpg

Now with the right boolit, fireformed cases this marvel should shoot will in the 'Vintage' competitions:D:D

[Boz330]

BA, nice find. I've been lusting for one of these for awhile. A couple years ago they were plentiful and the sporter models could be had for $225. I got one in 8MM that now wears a 40-65 barrel.

Bob

[cgtreml]

What a nice find. Took me 12 years to get mine and then restore it. Have a great shooting sporting model in 44 sharps. No better way to turn heads at the range.
Good Luck

[Old-Win]

I've got a 12.7 in a Husqvarna sporter that I restored but am having a booger of a time getting it to shoot. The hard part is finding a decent boolit. Anything for the American made 50's when loaded will not seat in the chamber. A Lyman 509 133 and a 515 141 are too large in diameter. My bore mics at .478" - .508." The only thing I've found that works is an RCBS miniball but get poor accuracy. Bullet holes look like hexagons. What are you guys using for a bullet? Bob

[excess650]

Check the twist in the barrel. I recall that they're really slow, so might be best with a 300-350gr boolit.

I had a sporter version that seemed to have a longish, tapered case. It seemed like a 50-70 case was too short at 1-3/4", and that a 2" case was about right. It might have been a chamber with no distinct end of chamber and beginning of leade. The rifling was very deep and round bottoms in the grooves.

[Scotty]

I find the Lyman 515139 sized down to .510" works well :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWKZXqI28_s

[Old-Win]

Excess, I believe your right about weight. The RCBS skirmishers mold is adjustable and I am casting a bullet right now that weighs about 320 grs. and .501" in dia. It's a hollow base bullet as I believe the originals were. It loads OK and will fit my chamber. Looks like a wad cutter otherwise. Doesn't shoot worth a hoot passed 35 yds.

Scotty, That 515139 looks about right for the cartridge. Trouble is, the .509-.512" bullets when loaded, won't chamber. My chamber won't take a bullet passed .501". I'm using Bertram brass.

When loading a hollow based bullet, do you fill the base with lube or leave it empty? Bob

[Chicken Thief]

Of all the Swedish rollers i have had contact with only one has had a chamber as tight as you describe, and here is my solution:

A Lee 90991 ment for the 500S&W revolver. It will cast a true .501" boolit. I did'nt care for the GC shank so it went in the lathe and now casts a 407gr boolit that shoots great.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/R0010681.jpg

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I'm using Bertram brass.

I've got 20 Bertram cases but I'm told that 348 Winchester cases can be used to form brass. I measured the rim of the Bertram at .620 but the 348 Win is only .604and seems to be a sloppy on the extractor.

Rather than firerorm I was thinking of making an expander die button that goes right down to the head internally.

[Stampede]

The 12,7x44R is probably one of the most used black powder cartridges today. We call it the European .50-70, it’s almost identical in the measurements. We all so use the same bullets and size them back to .510.

I have great success up to 300 meters. The Husqvarna and Remington RB rifles are in abundance over here (the Netherlands), for a mint condition rifle you pay about $ 800.– and for a regular one about $ 150.– (a perfect shooter). Barrel qualities like the one from ******Wallice are thankfully no exception from Husqvarna.

The brass can be bought in the US by Huntingtons it’s from the German manufacture Horneber. The quality is absolutely superb and almost every one of us here prefer them above the Bertram cases. Indeed all so forming them from 348 Winchester is possible, but it is a waist of money and brass. Some of us even size (case forming) .50-70 brass back to 12,7x44R and turn the rim back a bit to fit the chambers. This is the most cheapest and easiest way when you don’t have a choice.

In the past I even turned my own brass (see my pictures), the left one is the self made case and the right one is the Horneber case. The right one I all so did some paper patching with the bullets, just for the fun of it. But these rifles actually don’t need it.

The bullets that I use are the two left ones on the picture. The most left one is with a Lyman mould the other one is with a Seaco mould. In the past I used even Lee Minie-Ball bullets. For load data we use the .50-70 data without any troubles.

These RB rifles are a lot of fun to use and come with an unlimited amount of different calibers (a reloaders dream). I have Husqvarna’s in .50-70 / 12,7x44R and 11mm Danish / .45-70 / 7mm / 43 Spanish, Egyptian and Reformado / .577BPE / .450 BPE / .12Gauge. All of them are original (not modified!!). The RB’s are all so made over here by Francotte, Carl Gustav, Remington- Husqvarna and Beaumont, to name a few. The differences are in the detail.

I think that the Husqvarna RB rifles are just fun to have, especially when they are good shooters. :razz:

Peter (Stampede)

[Dutchman]

Chamber dimensions on these 12,7mm rifles is not uniform. If you're having trouble chambering then try shortening the case length first. Case wall thickness should also be checked. I use .348 Winchester brass and multiple plugs to expand and twice annealing is not excessive. You're working the brass quite a bit so anneal initially and mid-way through the expander plugs. You do this only once and then the cases are good for quite a while.

You can measure bore & groove at the muzzle with dial calipers.

The two hard cast bullets I'm still using were purchased from Wayne Doudna long ago. One is 350 gr the other 450 gr. Both are .512". They both have a large meplat. I don't know what make mold they were dropped from. The 450 gr is too heavy for this caliber, IMO, though it shoots ok the velocity is too low as the case just isn't that big. The 350 gr shoots very well and yes it can shoot MOA. I did that once with 5744 and put 3 rds into one big hole. Surprised me with the lousy sights.

My page on this needs updating...
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/12744r.html

http://images57.fotki.com/v300/photos/4/28344/7940990/12744R1-vi.jpg

http://images58.fotki.com/v154/photos/4/28344/7940990/12mm-vi.jpg

[Chicken Thief]

For those of you that cant get the case drawing to make scense then here is some conversions:

1 Lod = 4 Kvintin = 15,56gram ~ 240gr
1 Kvintin = 3,89gram ~ 60gr
1 Linie/strå = 3,14mm ~ 0.123"

So:
Powder weight 1 kvintin = 60gr
Boolit weight 5.85 kvintin = 351gr
Cartridge weight 2,3 lod = 552gr

Case length 13,3 linier = 1.64"
Boolit diameter 4 linier = 0.494"

[Old-Win]

That bullet diameter of .494" is vey small by today's standards but must bump up because of it's hollow base. Is there a mould or bullets available on either side of the pond that are similar to the one shown in the diagram? Does anybody know if hollow based bullets are filled with lube or left empty? Bob

[Chicken Thief]

The "small" diameter was due to the fact that the Swedes had more than 30,000 Vredes M1860 frontloaders that they wanted to convert instead of discard (money you know!). So the boolit was made small enough to go into a tight chamber and at the same time obturate to fill the deep rifling (like the original Minié boolit).

Mine (3) has always had a chamber big enough to chamber the Lee 515/450 boolit and shoot it very well.

Here is the maker of "Jämttangen" as it is called in the scandinavian countries:

Ole Tinggaard
Box 61
83070 Hammerdal.

Hjem +4664410764
Mobil +46706890473

The original cartridge had no grease in the cavity and no wad.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I found the perfect case to form ammunition for the 12.7x44 - I bought some used 500/450 Nitro cases at a gunshow for 40c ea, cut a little oversized in length annealed then trimmed and used the expander to seat a boolit. Rim size, head diameter is a match.

Perfect!

[powderburnerr]

bad *** , your bore looks more hexagonal than dutchmans picture , is it , I have a hex bore 50 and really like the way it works ,

[Ed in North Texas]

snip
The brass can be bought in the US by Huntingtons it’s from the German manufacture Horneber. The quality is absolutely superb and almost every one of us here prefer them above the Bertram cases. snip
Peter (Stampede)

It is possible that I failed to find the 12.7x44R Horneber cases on the Huntington website, and they actually still have them. But while they do carry a number of Horneber cases, the 12.7 is no longer listed as one they have.

Thanks for the other information. And If I come across some of their 12.7 cases, I'll know the brand and buy them.

Ed

[Stampede]

Okay they might have stopped the sale of those cases, perhaps they still can order them for you. If they sell the other cases of Horneber than ordering the 12,7 should not be a problem in my opinion. I find Huntingtons one of the best suppliers that I ever had contact with, they helped me out more than once with obsolete equipment. It's worth to give them a call.

Peter (Stampede)

[Dutchman]

Probably not available anymore....

http://images107.fotki.com/v67/photos/2/28344/157842/12x744Rc-vi.jpg

[Stampede]

Nope, and the primers are even harder to get. At least have not seen them in Europe for the last 10 years or so (not even in Germany, home of RWS).

Peter (Stampede)

[Ed in North Texas]

Okay they might have stopped the sale of those cases, perhaps they still can order them for you. If they sell the other cases of Horneber than ordering the 12,7 should not be a problem in my opinion. I find Huntingtons one of the best suppliers that I ever had contact with, they helped me out more than once with obsolete equipment. It's worth to give them a call.

Peter (Stampede)

Thanks.

[Chicken Thief]

Johannsen Jagd shows Horneber 12.7x44R brass at €62.2/20.

http://www.johannsen-jagd.de/data_de/katalog/katalog.php

I think i'll stay with my converted 348 Winnies.

Thats only $4½ + shipping around the world and then some for the importing store. As the US of A is at war no shipping of most anything gun related are allowed from/to civilian Americans.

[Stampede]

Johannsen is one of the most expensive suppliers in Europe, but they have the most broadest selection of reloading equipment and components one can think of. I pay in the Netherlands about $ 1.60 per case for the 12.7 from Horneber. But please note that Horneber re-produces one on "the" best brass you can get your hands on. Johannsen is all so one of the very few official importers of US reloading equipment and materials. If you don't want to import things for your self, they will do.

In my country we pay about $ 3.65 per case for the .348 Winchester. So in both situations ==> importing stuff can cost us both a lot. Plus I have to register the .348 on my gun permit before I even can order/buy/own and use it. But hey Johannsen is in the North of Germany near Hamburg. A trip from Denmark (Chicken Thief) is perhaps worth it. From my town to Johannsen is about 350km. So i do go to them when I go friends in Hamburg. Or my friends buy materials for me and i come and pick it up later on.

At this time I need an "US export licence" for ordering some reloading components from the US. I have to acquire that licence from the: Bureau of Industry and Security & Export Administration Regulations the last time i did that i have to wait up to 5 months before I received it and it set me back $ 40.-- per registered item!!!! No fun in that any more.

Peter (Stampede)

[Chicken Thief]

I buy online from Sweden and get 348's at my door for @1 Dollar a piece.

www.vapex.se

Stampede shoot me a PM if you need anything "interesting" ;)

[Stampede]

Whooo.....That's much better, I took a quick look at their site....Super. I do think I will contact them. Thanks for the tip !!!!

Peter

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Finally got to shoot the Swede RB today using 10 cases I have made for it. The 450/400 NE case was perfect as was the few Bertram cases. 348 Winchester was a disaster with most failing to fireform properly.

On the positive side, I posted this target at 100yds sitting with a load of 65gn Wano 2P and a Lyman 151141 450gn boolit sized to .510:razz::razz:

The two low holes were my sighters and the remainder after an elevation correction.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/SwedeRBT1.jpg

[Ed in North Texas]

BA, Nice shooting. What did your bore measurement come to? Measuring at the muzzle, mine came out at .503". And my Carl Gustav made rifle has a bore which appears hexagonal at the muzzle, as yours. Still have to get a lubrisizer die for it, Lyman 515141 as cast seems a bit large for a .503 bore.

[Stampede]

Nice shooting (and results), things are going the right way...... that's for sure!

Peter (Stampede)

[Bad Ass Wallace]

What did your bore measurement come to? Measuring at the muzzle, mine came out at .503". And my Carl Gustav made rifle has a bore which appears hexagonal at the muzzle, as yours. Still have to get a lubrisizer die for it, Lyman 515141 as cast seems a bit large for a .503 bore.
As close as I can measure .482/.508. They seem to be stabilising and cutting round holes (that target was damp as I was shooting in a rain shower). Initially I loaded a few boolits unsized but they proved to be too big in the case mouth after seating. A .510 is perfect and chambers easily.

The rifling is 6 groove which makes it easy to measure across the lands. One thing I noticed was that even when fireforming cases there was no leakage of BP soot around the case mouth as usually happens.

The fireformed cases I loaded tonight hold a full load of 68.5gn Wano 2P with the same compression as before

[Ed in North Texas]

Thanks. I need to get mine shooting, but seem to have too many projects going right now. :-?

Ed

[Ecramer]

Buffalo Arms lists the brass at $78 for a box of 20 (pre-formed Bertram Brass) here: http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156884&CAT=3831

But also lists 12.7x44R Norwegian cases here: http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156883&CAT=3831 for $1.55 each per box of 20 ($31). I have one of these but I'm still learning about it -- are the cartridges interchangeable?

I have an Allin Conversion in 50-70, but .50-70 Starline Brass that I have on hand will not chamber in my 12.77X44R roller. It stops about 1/2 inch from being fully chambered and it appears the .50-70 case head is too large in diameter for this chamber.

Thanks to all above for the info -- I'd really like to get this rifle in action for the upcoming year.

[Ed in North Texas]

Buffalo Arms lists the brass at $78 for a box of 20 (pre-formed Bertram Brass) here: http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156884&CAT=3831

But also lists 12.7x44R Norwegian cases here: http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=156883&CAT=3831 for $1.55 each per box of 20 ($31). I have one of these but I'm still learning about it -- are the cartridges interchangeable?
.

The difference between these two is one is made by Bertram and is very expensive, and the other is formed by Buffalo from .348 Winchester and is far less expensive.

Seriously, both countries used the cartridge and they are the same. .50-70 dies can be used to reload 12.7x44R, but they are not the same cartridge (as you found). I've read that some Swede Rollers can use trimmed .50-70, and some can use .50 Alaskan. This is due to chamber variations. Some people have had their chambers reamed to .50-70 to simplify the brass situation (the .348 conversion doesn't work perfectly for every rifle either, mostly due to rim issues). If .50 Alaskan was reasonable, I'd buy some just to see if they would fit my Swede. But they aren't exactly inexpensive and there is no sense in buying a batch to try one.

Good luck with the rifle.

Ed

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Ed,

In my rifle there are only 3 brass cases that work, Bertram 12.7x44mm which sell here for $AU100/20, 348 Winchester which are a little small in the rim but will work and 450/400 NE cases which are the best of all.

New Starline 50/70 cases require turning .015 off of the body just in front of the rim and turning the rim down .020 to fit the extractor. Once fireformed, a 50/70 sizer will not reduce the body of the case enough to rechamber so the correct dies are required.

CH4D can supply loading dies for approx $US75.

I use a Lyman 50/70 boolit which casts 442gn and .514 diameter. Loading these without sizing and the case mouth expands to be a tight fit into the chamber. Passing them into a .510 die and it is perfect for the .508 bore of my rifle.

I contacted Bertram direct and was able to secure 50 x 450/400 NE cases as factory 'seconds' for just $2 ea; this is the cheapest way to secure usuable cases for firing. I have a few shooters with old 450NE cases that have split in the neck so I'm going to trim and anneal these to see if they work also.

[Boz330]

Thanks. I need to get mine shooting, but seem to have too many projects going right now. :-?

Ed

Ed, I would sure hate to see you get too far behind on those projects. Me being the nice guy that I am, I'll take that Roller of your hands just to save you all of that trouble.:mrgreen: It will be nice big brother to my Swede 1889.

Bob

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed, I would sure hate to see you get too far behind on those projects. Me being the nice guy that I am, I'll take that Roller of your hands just to save you all of that trouble.:mrgreen: It will be nice big brother to my Swede 1889.

Bob

Golly, that sure is a generous offer. But if I keep this up [smilie=b: I'll manage to get through it all.

Good thing I'm retired, else there is no way I'd ever find enough time to do stuff.

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed, snip

New Starline 50/70 cases require turning .015 off of the body just in front of the rim and turning the rim down .020 to fit the extractor. Once fireformed, a 50/70 sizer will not reduce the body of the case enough to rechamber so the correct dies are required. snip


To what do you attribute the Starline cases being larger than the chamber after firing? That seems somehow wrong, given the spring back of the brass case. Is there some stretch of the case out of the chamber, causing the base of the case to be larger than the chamber?

Because I have a NYS Militia Roller, I wouldn't want to use .50-70 brass. It wouldn't be damaging, or dangerous, as other cartridge mix-ups might be. But I still prefer to avoid cartridge cases with an erroneous headstamp (when possible) for rifles I own.

Ed

[Frank69]

Hi all!
I live in Sweden and we can still bye the cases.
You find them at this seller:
http://www.skytteservice.se/Skytteservice.se/Hem.html
Page 13:
http://www.skytteservice.se/Skytteservice.se/Prislista_files/Skytteservice%20%20Prislista%202017_2.pdf
They are not cheap... 4dollars a pice.

[MOA]

Really old thread, but interesting. Most of use who are shooting this type of roller from Sweden have experienced this issue at some time or other. For the 12,7x44R shooter with this challenge ahead of you here is a suggestion from what I did. First I got 50 Alaskan brass from Starline, both the 450 and the 500 gr .515 molds from Lee along with a push through sizer of .510, a Lee 50-70 set of reloading dies. What worked for my Husky and Remy was trimming the brass back to 42mm, THAT made all the difference in chambering.

[threett1]

This has been very timely for me. Got a Swede roller coming in this week. Great anticipation.

[Buzzard II]

This is very timely indeed. I got a roller a few weeks back and am very interested in where this is going.

[MOA]

This is very timely indeed. I got a roller a few weeks back and am very interested in where this is going.

There are newer threads addressing the old rollers.