Best 1st CB Rifle for teen hunter - Recommendations?

[kentuc40]

I need to know where to start my son out casting rifle bullets for a straight-walled cartridge in a factory rifle.

My teen son wants to learn how to cast bullets for a deer RIFLE that he can use in Indiana (straight walled cartridges only - no bottle necked cartridges). What are good rifles and cartridges to start with that won't take a newby to very long to get 2" groups @ 100 yard groups consistently?

I'm afraid that if we have to play and tinker too long, he will lose interest, so I'm looking for proven ideas that will help him keep interested and see results fast.

Here are some things of concern:

--We don't care how fast/slow the velocity is. CBs will just be for practice ... lots of practice. We will load jacketed bullets for hunting.
--2 MOA accuracy is important. He wants to practice on a small metal gong.
--Would rather not have to use gas checks or paper patching. Just too complicated for him at this stage.

IS THIS POSSIBLE?

All suggestions regarding rifles, cartridge and bullet molds will be greatly appreciated!!

[Lloyd Smale]

Id consider a 357 or 44 mag marlin. Most are capable of 2 inch accuracy with some load developement. Id give the 357s a slight accuracy edge but the 44 is a bit better killer. Having said this if you can find a winchester 94 in these calibers the ones ive had tend to shoot a bit better then the marlins.

[Ben]

A father approached me with this very same question a few days ago. He had a nice Savage 110 in 308 Win. Said he wanted something to train his son with until he was mature enough to shoot " full bore " loads. Was considering buying another rifle of some type for " training purposes ".

I loaded him five rounds of 308 Win. with 5.0 Bullseye with a 160 gr. RN.

I told him, " If your son can shoot a .22 rifle, he can shoot these."

The father / son team went out and shoot them, he called and asked " Can we have more ......? if so, I won't be buying another rifle."

[rhbrink]

A lever action would be a great starter but I would also consider a T-C Encore or a Handy rifle chambered up in the .357 Mag. lots of boolit choices both plain base and gas check. If more power is wanted later have it reamed out to the .357 Max. There is also the Contender if its available might find a used one.

Richard

[bobthenailer]

IMO i would go with a 357 or 44 mag in a leaver action or a single shot rifle .
A friend also had a son not quite not old enough to hunt and wanted something for him to pratice with , he bought a rem youth model 7mm/08 with a 2x7 leupold
for him i loaded 115 gr J bullets with about 17 to 21 grs of 5744 for 1700 to 2000 fps, accuracy was excellent with every load with the best shooting into 1/2 inch at 50 yards . I think he shot over 300 of these over a couple of years , and when he was ready to hunt he had no problem shooting full power ammo for hunting.

[pietro]

.357 Single-shot - +4 ($250 Handi) :drinks:

.

[runnin lead]

44mag lever or single shot.
A 240 gr plain base bullet,less to mess with.
Why not stick with cast for hunting.
If you feel you need more velocity you can have him also work up a load with a GC bullet
You /he will still be limited to under 150 yards.

[redneckdan]

357 magnum contender would be the slick ticket. Easy to up grade to more powerful or different calibers.

[snowwolfe]

Ruger #1 in 45-70. He will never out grow it and it can be used to kill any animal in North America. Tons of cast data for it as well.

[dk17hmr]

I have to agree with the 45-70 suggestion although I would probably get a handi rifle, load it up with trail boss and a 300gr cast bullet at about 1100 fps and anyone could shoot it... turn around and load it with a 400gr at 1700 fps and kill anything.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Seeing as this is for Indiana deer hunting and the pistol cartrige restriction get the 44 mag or 45 Colt. He will never be undergunned and ammo should be sitting on every shelf in the state. A Goodyear tire dealer I know in West Indiana uses a Ruger Lever action in 44 mag and has not lost any deer I know of.
If Illinois ever gets it´s brain working I will use 18 grains of 2400 with the Lee 260 grainer in my Interarms 45 Colt 1892 model. It will do your 2 MOA easily and complete penetrate a whitetail from any angle except "up the grill doors". Not a real hard core thumper either. This is the same load I use in a 45 Colt Ruger 7" revolver.
Mike in Peru

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Handi-Rifle in 454 Casull?

Rich

[DIRT Farmer]

Indiana limits length to 1.6 inch so basicly stright wall pistol cases only. I got a deal on an H&R handy rifle in 45 Colt, mild to wild, it will work for pratice or hunting with cast.
Last Fall one of my granddaughters got her deer with a Rossi 357 and a 155 grn Kieth style GC casting I cast and loaded. One round put the deer down 10 feet from where it was hit. She dosen't like recoil (8 at the time) so she practiced with 38spl wad cutters. She never knew the differance with a deer in front of her.

[para45lda]

Leaning towards 45 Colt - more powder space if needed, same length as 357 and 44.

In a Handi Rifle that could be rechambered to 454 if ever needed.

My .02

Wes

[LEADLUBBER]

Ruger m77/44 ?


Seems like an awesome looking bolt action repeater with magazine; an interesting, reliable, and super strong way to shoot straight walled cartridges like a .44 magnum that can be loaded a zillion different ways....

Not the cheapest rifle, but, I have seen these around here for $450-$500 and it will last for a lifetime of fun!

[MBTcustom]

Indiana limits length to 1.6 inch so basicly stright wall pistol cases only.
Is that the case length or the overall length?
Either way I would get a handi rifle in .500 S&W and make it work. The case length on the .500 S&W is 1.6 and you could seat R.E.A.L. bullets flush with the rim? Just an idea.
How about a wildcat made from the bases of 50BMG cases? You could call it the .700ACP.
Seriously though, .500 S&W.

[kentuc40]

Thanks for the really great input!! 44 mag or 45 colt sound most interesting to me. Gotta keep the cost to about $500 or less, so what about these rifles for best no-gas-check accuracy:

Ruger 77/44 -- quite a few reports of poor accuracy with CBs, but good with Jacketed. My son really likes this rifle, but I am afraid to invest in something that requires a lot of tinkering with CBs for 2 MOA accuracy. Comments?

Lever actions: Winchester looks to be out of our price range so am looking into Marlin or Rossi lever action in 44 and 45 LC. Heavier octagon barrel sounds really good but price jumps out of reach with an octagon. Rossi or Marlin (not microgroove) - which one has a better reputation for CB accuracy?

Handi-rifles -- reports of oversize bores. True or just a few? Doesn't this make it awfully hard to get good CB plain base accuracy?

Thanks again for the great input as we try to narrow down the field.

[Mk42gunner]

My Marlin 1894CB in .45 Colt (24" barrel) puts my plinking load in nice tight clusters and also groups hunting load- Lyman 452424 under a healthy dose of 2400 into suitably small groups. Unfortunately, I believe unless you find a real deal you are not going to find a Marlin for under $500.00

Honestly, I would get a Handi-rifle in .45 Colt and start load development; You can vary the sizing of cast boolits to get one that fits.

I started out many years ago with a single shot .22 and the next year an H&R .410. To this day if I really want to put meat in the pot, I take a single shot.

Robert

[tacklebury]

Hard to beat my favorite .45 colt. The H&R .45LC CLassic carbine. ;) I got one and love it for my long range kin for my .45 colt blackhawk. ;) Bud's still has em for sale, but when they are gone, that's it. Not being made anymore. 8(

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/262/products_id/41772

I shoot 300 gr. Magnum XTP's out of it at about 1820fps. It'll put down anything in N.A. ;) I load my carbine loads with Reloader7 to take advantage of that 20" tube, but have shot my pistol loads also very accurately. Some of the guys shoot these with scopes out to 200yards with 250 grainers. ;)

[smoked turkey]

I believe the newer Marlins have better triggers than the older ones. Unfortunately they are also a little out of the park price wise unless a great deal is found. I think in addition to the caliber that the sights and trigger need to be good. It is hard to shoot accurately when the trigger pull is too heavy and the sights are not too good. I realize the younger eyes can see open sights more clearly than us old dogs! I do think though that a good trigger is needed for young and old alike in order to be able to shoot accurately. I say +1 on light reloads for lots of trigger time prior to season. My grandson started out with a 243 and light j-words bullets. So far he has taken two whitetails with two shots. We are going for number three this year.

[JIMinPHX]

As was already said, a Handi in .357 or .44 would be a good choice. This is especially true if you want to keep the budget small. Some people feel that a .357 is under gunned for deer, but with a 180-grain pill, I think that it's plenty for any deer that I've seen here in the states.

If you were willing to spend considerably more, then a Marlin Lever gun in one of those two calibers would be my preference as a hunting gun.

If Indiana allows hunting with semi-autos, then you might want to also consider one the the Ruger Deerfield Carbines in .44 mag. That little gun is a hunting machine at modest ranges. I don't know how well they do with cast though.

Edit:
The down side of a semi-auto in .44mag is that it would probably not be very friendly towards eating reduced power target ammo, whereas the lever guns don't care about the powder charge. Also, I just looked up the price of a Ruger .44 carbine. It appears that they stopped making them & the prices have gone way up.

[warf73]

Got my son a 45lc in a modle 94 winchester, he loves it and has gotten pretty good with it. He can shoot soda cans at 100 yards. The little gun is so fun I went and bought myself one 6 months later lol

[Ed K]

It's a shame you have to spend $500+ for a Marlin in 44 or 45 when one can still get a nice 30-30 or 35 Rem for $275-300. I understand we're talking straightwall limitation but in my locale I just can't justify the price for a straightwall lever gun.

I should have bought one of those H&R 45s when they were $200 from CDNN ... woulda, shoulda, coulda...

To add something of value a TC is something that one could build on - even use as a handgun one day.

[OnHoPr]

With your limitations of 1.6" I would stick to the .44 mag. You can shoot .44specials through a .44mag. With the .44spl, 200gr boolits and less powder your practicing and plinking cost will be lowered. During deer season you can use full house loads in the .44 mag. You might/should be able to get "2 out of a gun if you reload for it. A CB in that cal can be just as deadly, maybe even more so because of a 100fps increase of MV. A 1000 gcs, a sizer, and a mold will only run about $70 for a thousand bullets, Plenty to find a load for hunting. The .44mag is, no question, better for than any other considering the 1.6" restriction. The question of cost has a lot to do if he doesn't mind used or new, in fact there might be better used guns out there than new. I took a quick look and seen a Win and a Marlin in the $350 category. I also looked at the Ruger .44 mag Carbine for roughly the same coin. The newer ones have clip feed, not a bad concept for cast or J's. Heck, I wouldn't mind having one of those myself for plinking and deer hunting.

[longbow]

I'll toss in my $0.02 worth here too.

With the cartridge and budget limitations I would be inclined to get a single shot in one of the previously mentioned pistol cartridges of .44 or .45. I think it would be hard to go wrong.

Lots of factory brass and ammo, cast friendly, inexpensive, not much recoil at least with moderate loads.

While some lever actions may meet your accuracy requirements, my experience (limited) with my Marlin 1894 is that getting decent accuracy may be work . I suspect a single shot would be much easier to work with.

Whichever caliber, there are lots of moulds available and I have been pushing my .44 with "J" bullet loads with no leading using PB boolits.

I load from 165 gr. to 270 gr. in the .44 with good success and have never needed a gas check.

Longbow

[Blammer]

If it were me....

I would look at a Ruger M77/44mag.

Or a NEF 44mag.

I have shot both and currently own the Ruger.

It's not hard to get good accuracy with cast in my ruger and the NEF is a good one too!

Here is My first attempt with loading the ruger at 100yds

so a little tinkering later I'm sure I can do better.
I will also admit the LBT with the really big meplat didn't help me in the accuracy dept.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/scan0003.jpg

[kentuc40]

Fantastic input everyone. Thanks for taking the time to share! Right now we are leaning toward the Handi-rifle due to low cost ($220 new) and keeping it simple for tuning up for best accuracy.

I saw quite a bit of discussion among Indiana hunters of reaming 357 Mag handi-rifles to 357 Rem MAXIMUM, but very little experience or info is available on accuracy obtainable with CBs. I already have 357 mag reloading dies and bullet molds, so this cartridge would be simple and easy cartridge for us to reload with CBs rather than getting the Handi-rifle in 44 mag or 45LC. 357 Maximum seems to have enough power for deer to 100 yards.

Is there any experience out there with **ACCURACY** of 357 Rem MAXIMUM in a handi-rifle or Contender (not revolver) with CBs? Do you think we can get 2 MOA with CBs?

[rhbrink]

There's a fellow on this forum named 357maximun look him up I'll bet that he can help you.

Richard

[gnoahhh]

Lever gun in .357, .38/40, .44/40, .44 Mag, .45 Colt. If the budget allowed it, my suggestion for an über cool rifle would be a Martini or Lo Wall single shot in .357 Mag or .357 Max.

[Norbrat]

Fantastic input everyone. Thanks for taking the time to share! Right now we are leaning toward the Handi-rifle due to low cost ($220 new) and keeping it simple for tuning up for best accuracy.

I saw quite a bit of discussion among Indiana hunters of reaming 357 Mag handi-rifles to 357 Rem MAXIMUM, but very little experience or info is available on accuracy obtainable with CBs. I already have 357 mag reloading dies and bullet molds, so this cartridge would be simple and easy cartridge for us to reload with CBs rather than getting the Handi-rifle in 44 mag or 45LC. 357 Maximum seems to have enough power for deer to 100 yards.

Is there any experience out there with **ACCURACY** of 357 Rem MAXIMUM in a handi-rifle or Contender (not revolver) with CBs? Do you think we can get 2 MOA with CBs?

A bit late, but have a look at Mike Bellm's website http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/

While he seems to deal mainly with T/C's, there is some interesting reading about the .357 max chambering.

I've shot my Contender with the 357 max barrel using the same ammo I used in the DW revolver in IHMSA competition. My scores were in the low to mid 30's, much the same as I managed with the 7TCU barrel.

The load was 210gn cast boolit, with gas check, 19.5gns AR2205 (sold as 4227 in the US). I know that is higher than listed in the reloading manuals, but it worked safely in my guns.

Hits on the pigs at 100m were around 4" groups, but that was shooting from a creedmore position over open sights and old eyes! You should have no problem getting 2" from a rested rifle and I assume telescopic sights.

Maxi's do seem to work best with heavy boolits, 180 gn or more.

You may not need to re-chamber to 357 max. I easily get 1250 fps out of a 357 mag, 9" barreled revolver with the same 210gn bullet I used in the 357 max, and the primers are hardly flattened, so load is nowhere near maximum

Without the losses of the cylinder gap and the extra barrel length, you should be able to get 1400 fps with a 200gn boolit out of the 357 mag. You can also load the ammo longer than spec as it doesn't have to fit in a revolver cylinder or work in a lever action.

I reckon a 200gn boolit at 1400 fps will easily drop a decent sized deer at 100 yds as long as it is hit properly.

A mate here uses his 357 lever action with a 200 gn bullet to bowl over large feral billy goats and hasn't needed a second shot in any of them.

You could even use cast bullets for the hunt as you can cast a soft nose boolit as described here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=11749&highlight=soft+nose+bob

Using the same boolit weight and shape as your practice loads should also mean your point of aim won't change from practice to hunt.

[357maximum]

If I could use the 357max in a rifle length instead of a pistol as southern Michigan regs require me I would do it in a heartbeat just so i could use a rifle scope instead of a pistol scope. I would simply place another call to MGM and order a skosh longer barrel for my encore.......problem solved. 35remington power in a straightwalled case.....if you cannot kill a deer with that I do not know what to tell ya. Heck I killed a deer with a homemade self bow and a stone strapped to a dogwood stick this afternoon. ;)

[kentuc40]

You may not need to re-chamber to 357 max. I easily get 1250 fps out of a 357 mag, 9" barreled revolver with the same 210gn bullet I used in the 357 max, and the primers are hardly flattened, so load is nowhere near maximum. Without the losses of the cylinder gap and the extra barrel length, you should be able to get 1400 fps with a 200gn boolit out of the 357 mag. I reckon a 200gn boolit at 1400 fps will easily drop a decent sized deer at 100 yds as long as it is hit properly.

I like the idea "hot" 357 mag loads, but HAVE ONE BASIC QUESTION:
In a break action handi-rifle, is the amount primer flattening a good way to judge pressure? I have used this method for much higher pressures in bolt action rifles, but does it work for lower chamber pressures like the 357maximum? If so, is there one brand of primer that is better than another for this? Thanks.

[Norbrat]

I don't know anything about the Handi Rifle, but I would expect that it would be a stronger action than the average revolver.

I have a Freedom Arms and with it's long cylinder, am able to load the ammo with this bullet longer than to .357 specs, which would help to reduce pressure in the case. The throat in the Handi Rifle may allow you to do the same.

I have also assembled the same load to 357 length specs to fit into a friends S&W 686 and have used it in my Ruger GP100, and in both guns, the brass extracted easily, so I don't think it is close to maximum pressure.

John Taffin wrote this article http://www.sixguns.com/range/fa353.htm when the FA first came out in 357 mag and he was able to exceed 357 maximum performance in the revolver, albeit with shorter case life.

I would be confident working up to a heavier load in the Handi Rifle, using rifle primers and taking note of sticky extraction and flattened primers.

At the end of the day, I doubt 200fps or so would make much difference. It would be better that the young bloke is comfortable shooting the gun and load without flinching, etc. A well placed shot is always better than a miss with a cannon!

[357maximum]

I like the idea "hot" 357 mag loads, but HAVE ONE BASIC QUESTION:
In a break action handi-rifle, is the amount primer flattening a good way to judge pressure? I have used this method for much higher pressures in bolt action rifles, but does it work for lower chamber pressures like the 357maximum? If so, is there one brand of primer that is better than another for this? Thanks.

The 357max has chamber pressures that rate right up there with many centerfire rifles. It is not a LOW PRESSURE round. I use Remington 7.5 spark plugs exlusively for my max but that is an accuracy issue.

[helice]

Kentuc40
Welcome aboard!
Got to give a +1 on the 45 Colt in a rifle. My LSI Puma is a bunch of fun and reloads go from easy to ouch. :-0 Lots of knock-em down power even when under 1000'/s.

[Blammer]

the NEF in 357 mag or MAX will be a wonderful firearm for him.

Yes use the primer as an indicator just like usual when working up in the 357 NEF.

I have a 360 Dan Wesson Winchester 94 with 24" barrel.

the 360-180gr RF is a wonderful boolit the one with the GC on the right as well as the 358-158 Lee mould design. (not shown here)
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN6583.jpg
here is a target I shot at 100yds with the Lee boolit and 9gr of bluedot, vel out of my rifle was 1250fps or so. I would not hesitate to take this hunting for deer. (our deer are smaller 150lbs is a BIG deer here, so take it as you will) If not this is a great cheap plinker that's easy to shoot.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/100yd357mag.jpg
stepping up to the 357 max in the NEF you can get some great performance out of it with cast boolits.