No. 4 Mk 1, 500 yds. Fatter 30 Bench Rest?

[cropcirclewalker]

OK.

This coming May my club is putting on a 500 yd bench rest competition. There are lotsa guys shooting big ticket stuff but since I am poor I thought I would try dedicating my No. 4 Mk. 1 and working up a load with my Fatter 30 which I bought here in the group buy.

The fatter 30 I guess is best described as a modified Lyman 314299 with a flat meplat and drops at .316 and weighs in at like 194 gr with gas check and LLA frog snot.

My No. 4 slugs at .3145 and I lapped out a Lee push through .311 sizer to .315.

I like to shoot low and slow at 50 yds (squirrel off the bird feeder loads) so 1200 fps is fine for me usually.

What I need for somebody to relate to me is what kind of load will get this puppy out the muzzle at like 2100 fps (I want it to remain supersonic at 500 yds).

I kinda like H4895 for this kinda stuff but I have 2400, Unique, AA1680, IMR 4227, HS7, H335, BlueDot, RedDot, Bullseye, GreenDot, Clays, Universal, H4350, Universal and Trail Boss.

NFPA says that I can store up to 20 lbs of smokless powder without building a magazine, so if it's alright, please don't tell me about some powder not listed. I am at 19.78 lbs now and one more lb puts me over the limit.

Please don't tell me to use some Saeco M301 mould or something like that cause ona counta I am poor.

The only other boolit moulds I have that will fit this bore is a Lyman 319247, which is a plain based 165 gr schutzen type and a Lee .314 90 gr semi wad cutter.

So.........Please Help..........If you can.

BTW...I don't expect to win.

I would just love to belly up to the bench with my $69.00 Milsurp with a Bushnell Sportview 3x9 x 30 scope and home made boolits and put down a 12" group at 500 yds.

-Crop

P.S. I shot my Chrony :( and am waiting for it to come back in the mail. I have a few months to get ready and am champing at the bit.

Help?

[PAT303]

Mate I shoot my No.4 all the time at long range with a 225grn boolit over 30grns of 2206(4895) or 40grns of 2209(4350) and can keep all my shots on a still and clear day on target.The wind and glare,mirage are hardest to deal with.Load the best boolits you can cast. Pat

[Four Fingers of Death]

The equipment freaks really seem to get bent out of shape when you get a cheap or non specialist rifle to shoot well, kinda like you are undermining their choice. I went to fly shoots a few times with a 308 brno hunting rifle and I noticed that all of the guys with the fancy rifles were really lucky, they all got the benches together under the big fancy shed (always in the shade), whilst all of the blowins and cheap rifle goons consistemtly drew the crappy benches under the low narrow shed (shaded for 20mins a day and that's at luinchtime :D.

Good luck with it. Those powders that Pat303 spoke of can be had under the Hodgson label, but no doubt you guys can get lots of cheap powder, I don't visit the surplus powder page, too much like self flagellation.

[hs45/70]

Have a Longbranch #4 Sporter, scoped 3x9 Bushnell, useing an" inexpensive" Lee 200 gr. WW boolit and unsized have used a max load of 26.0 gr Imr 4227 @ 1855 fps, for 3shots/100yds/1.75 inch. And using same boolit with 36.0 grains Imr 4895 @ 2044 fps 3 shots/100yds/ 1.45 inch

[cropcirclewalker]

36.0 grains Imr 4895 @ 2044 fps 3 shots/100yds/ 1.45 inch

OK, great! I was guessing something like that and was going to start with that load.

It's cold and rainy here but I still got a bunch of boolits gas checked and lubed and soon to be weighed in.

If I can get a 1.45" group at 100 that should convert to 7.2" at 500.

Dead calm and no sun in the eyes. All I gotta do is my part.

Thanks so far.

[KCSO]

Group sizes don't exactly go in a progression. If you can find a range long enough you need o practice at the range you intend to shoot. The 303 really doesn't come into its own till you get WAY out there. My match #4 would shoot 1 1/2" 10 shot groups at 100 yards and 6" at 300 yards, but then settled down to tight at 10" at 600. Doc Carlson shot in England where they shot at 2700 yards and the 303 beat all comers including fancy 1000 yard match rifles. I think some american barrel maker commented on this at one time, seems he lost a new match rifle when he bet that he could beat any gun on the line and lost to a #4.

[felix]

Sounds like a shooter problem to me. 2700 yards is quite difficult for anyone not having that kind of experience over a long period of time doing so. At least, that is what this stunt proves to me. Sure, a military gun can be made to shoot quite well, no doubt about that. My personal experience is that even at a 100 yards in any sort of weather condition, the experienced person will wipe out every gun on the line except for coincidence (assuming all guns were equal when set up for that particular competition). I have never seen or heard of a BR gun made for anything more than 1000 yards. ... felix

[PAT303]

That 2700 yard shoot was shot on a military range and the people at Bisley ran it.Alot of shooters used very big calibres but the no.4 came away with the win. It doesn't mean much,at that range no one can tell me luck didn't play a part. Pat

[mike in co]

felix,
there are some br guys, that at the request of the g'vment, built a 1 mile range and were showing what could be done with br spec'd guns. some where east...penn i think...
while regular competiton is 1000 and 600 for br there are clubs that do further.

mike in co

[longbow]

Here is a good site with lots of .303 info:

http://www.303british.com/

Go to "Cast Bullets in the Lee Enfield Rifle" by David Southall - good stuff.

There are also a lot of cast bullet loads listed as well.

I contacted David and here is some of his advice:

To get velocities approaching 2000fps, you will need a slow powder, good bullet fit, a high quality lube (I use and recommend LBT "blue") and a good "hard" alloy of at least BHN 24 or so. It can be done, and with good accuracy as well. Cast bullets fail when the pressure exceeds their structural strength. A good rule of thumb is to multiply the Brinell Hardness Number by 1400 then do not exceed this pressure level. Bullet design comes into play at higher velocities too. Bullets with long "bore-riding" noses have problems unless they are very hard (like jacketed bullets) Bullets with short noses or "one diameter" designs generally work better. A hardness of BHN 26 or 28 is about minimum when pressures are sure to exceed 36,000psi with all but the slowest powders.

For high velocity loads I am using WC860, a .50BMG "surplus" powder. A full case (about 48 grains) gives 2000 fps with a 200 grain oven-tempered cast bullet in my .303s, or about 2150 fps with a 180 grain slug. Of course, these bullets have gas checks.

David also said that he had gotten good results with 3031 (not listed) and 4895 (bingo! - its listed)

I'm not there yet but making progress.

I also have several articles by C.E. Harris that Dale53 sent me. Not all specifically .303 but good info. I will look through and send anything I find that is of use.

Maybe this info will help you out too.

Longbow

[robertbank]

When I read your post I remembered I had my wife's Grand-Fathers old shooting record book at hand. AT 1,000 yds July 18th 1960 at the Sarcee Range in Alberta he shot a 71 out of 75 with his SMLE with peep sights. My Brother-in-law has the rifle and I have no chance of laying my hands on it. His score is recorded with shots on target. Only four scored outside the 5 point Bull. Bulleye was 36", outer circle scoring 4 was 54". The old gent was 75 at the time.

Several of his targets at 900, 600, 500, 300 and 200yds are equally inpressive. The old bugger could shoot.

We also have several Gold Medallions from shoots going back to the 30's from the Dominion Marksmenship Shoots. No loads are listed unfortunately, though I know he reloaded as I have several of his old Lyman Shotgun Reloading Tools.

I list the above to give you something to shoot for.

I should be so skilled.

Take Care

Bob

[rvpilot76]

This is interesting. I've got a Savage #4 Mk. 1 that I got the Fatter 30 group buy mold for, as she slugs .315". I've been wanting to stretch her legs some: perhaps we'll have to do this little venture together. I've got some of Lar's carnuba red that I need to load into the LAM and get going!

Kevin

[DonH]

The 2700 yard shoot story was told by Gale (?) Mc Millan and may be found on the web. I don't recall the link but a search will find it. The shoot was a first for McMillan but not for the Brits involved.

[felix]

Yeah Don, the McMillan family got their experience down pat on 100-200 yard BR matches. They have made, and prolly still are making, these competitive guns. It seems that quite a few of these older gun makers are switching to 22LR guns now. All read from the current BR literature. However, some of these BR fellas have switched to the longer range guns, and I sure don't doubt you, Mike, in saying that the mile shooting guns are here to stay for a while too. It seems the military is still interested in simi-auto guns, though, for this practice. Maybe the BR folks are trying to find the ideal projectile form, style, weight, etc., to be cost effective, and perhaps to find a smaller case for that bullet they come up with. A lot of this stuff is based upon pure luck, just like that guy (I forgot who, what when, where) came up with the "perfect" 6PPC bullet within the last couple of years. ... felix

[doc25]

Let's be honest any extreme long range shooting is based on being able to dope the wind properly. Can you shoot your 12" circle at 500 yds. with your best rifle allready? I can shoot 2" or less with my Enfield at 100yds but have not tried it at anything more. If you can't then do more practice. Good luck I hope you rock their socks (my personal favourite is when I show up at a range to shoot skeet and beat guys with my riot-gun).

[PAT303]

You blokes are a bunch of troublemakers showin' up with those guns. Don't you know this is serious. Pat

[curator]

I second the motion on a full case of WC860 or AA8700 powder and a HARD boolit of 180-220 grains. 47 grains of AA8700 and a Federal 215 primer push a Lymam #314299 boolit made of lino at 2150 fps + or- 25fps. These shoot into 1.5 MOA out to 400 yards with my PH5A equipped Lithgow No1Mk3*. I would try them at longer range but have no access to anything longer than 400yds. LBT lubes seem to work better at high velocities than many others--you pays your money and you takes your chance!

[cropcirclewalker]

Can you shoot your 12" circle at 500 yds. with your best rifle allready?

Heck. The longest I ever shot was 300yds. That was sitting with the ladder up on my old P14 with Greek Surplus Jwords.

No way to find out unless I give it a whack. I have a coupla months to work at it and it only costs a sawbuck to enter.

If I can get some holes in the paper with boolits at that range I figger I will have done good.

OK.

I did the LLA, crimped on gas checks and lubed again about 250 of the fatter 30s.

Weighed them up last night and 8 came in below 197.0 grs and 2 came in above 199.0 grains. This is with LLA and gas checks applied.

Is 3 grains good enough for segregation or should I divide them up more?

Should I have weighed them before lube and gc?

Should I start with a new batch of boolits?

I found a Lyman 311413 (l75 gr spire point gc) that mikes at .315 as cast. I think I should give that one a whack too.

edited to add.........Whats this LBT and where do I get some?

[robertbank]

From everything I have read from some experienced shooters you want the longest, heaviest boolit you can cast for the #4 rifles. 200 gr 314299 Lyman design I would think would be about perfect for those longer ranges.

Take Care

Bob

[doc25]

I would weigh all components gc's alone, boolits alone etc. Then remeasure after it is assembled and lubed. I haven't tried to see how much weight you get with the LLA but it might be a problem getting it applied consistently. I'm sure you're already doing this but use fire formed brass as well, neck size only. The more anal you are about everything at this point the more consistent your loads will be. Personally I would reject everything with more than 1gr difference and maybe even less.

[cropcirclewalker]

OK

So I loaded up 11 rounds with 36 grains of H4895, personally weighed each load and personally weighed each boolit and fired them at 50 yds.

My log book lists that experience as "Extraordinarily Unaccurate"

I figger an 8" group.

I don't know the velocity, since I emailed Chrony to find out when I was going to be seeing my replacement.

I Had been led to believe that sending in the old one with 30 bux plus 6 bux shipping would get me a new one

Wrong,

They said mine had been shot. I told them that when I called for instructions.

So, anyway, $69.95 later plus 6 bux shipping and they say they will ship me a new one on Weds.

I am going to load up a bunch at 30 grains H4895 now and try them whilst I wait.

I know this piece will make ORH at 50 yds if the load is right.

[smilie=f:

[Frank46]

Had a chance to oggle Jim Allison's CBE catalog and he makes some awesome heavy bullets for the 303. Why don't you check it out. Maybe something there will srtike your fancy. Frank

[Bret4207]

The 2700 yard stuff with SMLE's rung a bell in my head. I recall reading multiple times years ago about the SMLE design coming together at long range. Something about barrel harmonics and the reciever design. Not sure where to find that info these days. The rear locking bolt wasuspposed to have something to do with it.

[cropcirclewalker]

I cleaned the barrel real good with Sweets, looking for some copper fouling. I found none.

Nothing blue came out of this barrel.

I loaded up 11 rounds of H4895 (28 gr) under all 11 boolits weighing 197.1 gr.

50 yds. some fouling and zeroing shots and the last 5 rounds shot a 3" group.

The first 3 rounds of the final 5 were within 1.375".

Not all that good but I will clean the heck outa the barrel again with Ed's Red and try again with a smaller charge.

[cropcirclewalker]

I read the C.E Harris piece that Mr. Robertbank posted. That Piece claims that like around 27.5 gr of H4895 should work for 600 yds.

The bore is copper free.

The bore is clean as a hounds tooth.

I load up 10 rounds with 26.8 gr H4895 under all ten boolits weighing in at 197.3 gr.

5 rounds, I shoot at 50 yds. for fouling. They make a group of 3 5/16". Comes in like 5" high at 50 yds. Not good.

I crank in 20 clicks down (1/2" per click at 100 yds) and fire the other 5 rounds.

Not good.

If I hadda describe the group I'd call it 2 1/4" wide by 4 11/16" high.

I read the piece on http://www.303british.com/ about "Cast Bullets in the Lee Enfield Rifle" by David Southall and he said to check the bedding of the forearm.

I grabbed the barrell at the muzzle and it like "wiggles". Southall says it should have 6 to 7 lbs. up pressure.

OK, I pulled my Faz down and stuffed a bunch of business cards in the front of the forearm.

I only have 9 pieces of brass left before I cycle my tumbler, so I will load up 9 more with the same charge (26.8 gr) boolits (6 at 197.2 gr and 3 at 197.4) and try it again.

I am hoping for an improvement.

I might have been making pressure on the forearm, squeezing the piece so that the crosshairs pull into the bull and putting the wood into stress.

I gotta watch that.

[Bret4207]

IME an individual rifle needs at least 50 rounds through it with a particular load and lube combo before you can see what it'll really do. My theory is the lube takes a while to "season" the bore and an individual load combo is going to act a bit differently than another load, maybe the boolit design and pressure put the lube in slightly differnet places or thicknesses and it takes some time to stablize. Not a very good explainantion, but 3 or 5 rounds won't give you a real indiction IMHO.

[robertbank]

It is my understanding the #4 rifle barrel is designed to be free floating and the wiggle you experienced is normal.

Take Care

Bob

[cropcirclewalker]

Here's my story, sad but true.

Like I said, I loaded up my last 9 cartridges and took them out to my bench.

Powder charge and boolit weight not important. Group size not important since as I was chambering round 9........I noticed that the scope mount moved.

Yes.

Those alleged "No Gunsmithing" scope mounts for the No. 4.

Ok, so I dumped all my brass into the tumbler and removed the scope and replaced the original micrometer click type ladder sight.

I stuck a little piece of the metal tape I bought for Mould Beagling on the peep hole, stuck it with a pin and colored it black with a felt tip marker.

Today it's raining but as soon as there is a break in the clouds I will run back out and retry some of the loads.

I guess I gotta remove as many variables as possible.

If I could just get back to ORH at 50 yds, Boy, that would be great.

[cropcirclewalker]

Here we have it.

5 pm. The light, which was not good causa ona counta of the rain was starting to fail. It was still raining lightly but I couldn't wait.

I walk the target (3" Orange stick on target spot) out to the butts.

I come back about half way, chamber a round with the ladder sight screwed up to about 300 yds, lean up against a tree and fire away.

She comes in about 4" low.

I walk back to my bench (all wet and still raining) crank the sight up to 500 yds and squeeze off another. Walking back to the target it starts to rain a little harder.

The boolit hole is 1/2 on the orange at 45 deg. down and left.

I walk back, crank in 1 more click up (17 total from bottomed) and fire off 2 more shots. The rain picks up.

I step out smartly to go get the target.

There it is. 2 holes in the orange, 1" group with the farthest one from the center a mere 1 1/4" down and 3/8" left of center.

The light was bad. It was raining.

Tomorrow is supposed to be in 40s with maybe snow flurries.

I have 6 more rounds of this load to shoot and UPS tracking says that they will deliver my Chrony on Monday.

Maybe things are looking up.

:drinks:

P.S. 26.8 gr H4895 with 197.4 gr. boolits

[45nut]

gotta love this type of thread.

[robertbank]

Great shooting! Got my 314299 mold yesterday and have 60 rounds loaded. Just waiting for the darn weather to warm up a tad. Presently around 32F with snow/rain with sun.

Why didn't my relatives get such a case for God & King back in 1750. I could be enjoying 80F somewhere in the deep south surely. I swear I am heading south next year if I have to live in a pup tent! Hurricanes and tornados be dammed they aren't snow!:mrgreen:

Take Care

Bob

[Frank46]

I hope that you have some serious elevation and windage adjustments on that scope. You're gonna need them. Don't forget that your bullet will be traveling much slower than one of them J-word bullets. I had a set of scope mounts on my faz #4MKII. After getting sighten in and after about twenty or so shots. I noticed that I was getting two distinct groups. The mounts had loosened up. Tightened them up as tight as I could and after about twenty or so shots was right back where I started. That was the last time I tried to scope a #4. Frank

[cropcirclewalker]

No scope. I took it off.

Twas 36 F this morning but no snow. I had 6 rounds left from yesterday.

I pasted up yesterday's target and shot 1 for a barrel warmer, walked down, pasted it too and went back.

I figger a 5 round group so I fire away. This is iron sights.

I don't exactly know.

I got a triangle, pointy end down with the first paster sort of in the middle, 1 hole upper right, one hole upper left and a clover leaf at the bottom. Actually more like an oval or whatcha might call a two leafed clover.

The bottom 3 holes are in the orange target spot, high and right with a group of .3" with the two fliers 1 5/8" and 1 3/4" above left and right. Like I said, the first barrel warming shot is 7/8" away from the clover and inside the triangle.

If I had shot a 6 round group it would have been moot.

If I'da dropped the two fliers I'da had a .78" group of 4.

I wish I'da logged in each shot.

I wish I didn't have old eyes.

I wish I had a better scope mount.

Maybe I will put the scope mount back on with some locktite or maybe make a regimen of

1) tighten screws
2) shoot
3) tighten screws and like that.

Locktite on those little hex screws is kinda like pouring concrete. Scary.

First I think I should shoot a 10 round string over my chrony, log the shots and try to see what I get. Maybe I should start indexing the brass and boolits.

[DonH]

Just a few observations. (1) In my iron sight shooting experience an orange paster target is none to conducive to precision shoting as they tend to get "fuzzy" just like a red ramp front sight. (2) Your lean-against-a tree shooting position is probsbly not stesdy enough for really wringing out yur combo. (3) It would be well worth your while to hunt up one of the A.J. Parker windage adjustable adapters for the #4 rear sight and (5) if your 500 yd target is a round aiming bull it is likely you can shoot as small a group on target with a peep sight as with a low power scope.

[robertbank]

Hi

Here are some pictures of #4 Sniper rifle for sale on canadiangunutz forum. Price is $2,500Cdn.! Thought you might want to see how they mounted the scopes on the sniper rifles.

[quasi]

When I read your post I remembered I had my wife's Grand-Fathers old shooting record book at hand. AT 1,000 yds July 18th 1960 at the Sarcee Range in Alberta he shot a 71 out of 75 with his SMLE with peep sights. My Brother-in-law has the rifle and I have no chance of laying my hands on it. His score is recorded with shots on target. Only four scored outside the 5 point Bull. Bulleye was 36", outer circle scoring 4 was 54". The old gent was 75 at the time.

Several of his targets at 900, 600, 500, 300 and 200yds are equally inpressive. The old bugger could shoot.

We also have several Gold Medallions from shoots going back to the 30's from the Dominion Marksmenship Shoots. No loads are listed unfortunately, though I know he reloaded as I have several of his old Lyman Shotgun Reloading Tools.

I list the above to give you something to shoot for.

I should be so skilled.

Take Care

Bob

Robert, up until the late 80's or early 90's, DCRA matches were shot with mil spec ball ,.303 and then later 7.62 nato, . The Sarcee ranges were world class, particularly the Palamino range. They are now occupied by Injuns, who leased the land to the military around ww2.

[quasi]

When I read your post I remembered I had my wife's Grand-Fathers old shooting record book at hand. AT 1,000 yds July 18th 1960 at the Sarcee Range in Alberta he shot a 71 out of 75 with his SMLE with peep sights. My Brother-in-law has the rifle and I have no chance of laying my hands on it. His score is recorded with shots on target. Only four scored outside the 5 point Bull. Bulleye was 36", outer circle scoring 4 was 54". The old gent was 75 at the time.

Several of his targets at 900, 600, 500, 300 and 200yds are equally inpressive. The old bugger could shoot.

We also have several Gold Medallions from shoots going back to the 30's from the Dominion Marksmenship Shoots. No loads are listed unfortunately, though I know he reloaded as I have several of his old Lyman Shotgun Reloading Tools.

I list the above to give you something to shoot for.

I should be so skilled.

Take Care

Bob

Robert, up until the late 80's or early 90's, DCRA matches were shot with mil spec ball ,.303 and then later 7.62 nato, . The Sarcee ranges were world class, particularly the Palamino range. They are now occupied by Injuns, who leased the land to the military around ww2.

[robertbank]

Yes I have a picture of the group of guys including Linda's grand-dad taken at the Sarcee range at the Alberta Provincial Championships July 22 - 26, 1935.

Take Care

Bob

[doc25]

Have you been to the .303british.com site? There is a scope mount (indestructible scope mount) if you don't mind buggering up your enfield a bit. My suggestion would be to use aluminum angle 'cause it has flat instead of tapered edges. I have a steel angle on my rifle and it has not loosened up. I used a one piece base (I think it was for a marlin 336?). Another suggestion is to try and align it as well as possible so you don't loose too much elevation or windage off your scope.

Remember YOU CAN DO IT! Good luck.

[robertbank]

Take a look at Post 35. That is the scope mount for the Sniper Rifle version of the #4/

Take Care

Bob

[Frank46]

Take a look at Checkpoint Charlies web site. In the latest edition he lists ex-british target rifles for what seems fair prices. Lee Enfields, Mausers and a P14 Enfield, maybe that could give you some ideas. I haven't checked it out myself yet. Frank

[doc25]

Take a look at Post 35. That is the scope mount for the Sniper Rifle version of the #4/

Take Care

Bob

Close to that but more like this.

http://usera.imagecave.com/doc25/IMG_0466-copy.jpg


and this.

http://usera.imagecave.com/doc25/IMG_0467-copy.jpg

It cost me $0.00 to make except for the base and the tap to install the base.

[rugerman1]

cropcirclewalker ,any updates?