Is Faster Better? Powders.

[beagle]

In running a bunch of tests with light bullets in the .223 in the 40 grain range, I quickly learned that the powders I was using for slightly heavier projectiles were inefficient for the lighter bullets.

I earlier posted my success with Hodgdon's Longshot and evidently BullshopJr has been using it as well with success.

I had earlier used some really fast burners for making whisper loads in the 600 FPS range with good success. I now wondered if I could get similar results up to the 2,00-2,100 FPS range.

I started off with Red Dot and 700-X and easily acheived my velocities. I then branched out to Unique, Clays, Titegroup, Bullseye, Universal, Green Dot and almost any fast burner on my shelf. I was able to reach my intended velocities of 2,000+ with each of these powders with no apparent problems and after I switched to Hornady gas checks, good accuracy running from 3/4" to 1.5" with all loads tested using a 225438HP bullet weighing 44.2 grains.

Of course, there is the possibility of a double charge and this is the downside but the results and good handloading procedures justify the end result.

I know I'm gonna be using a lot more of these powders with light bullets in the future as the old reliable .223 cast powders just won't burn efficiently with these lighter bullets./beagle

[Willbird]

I have always thought...and worked as if the faster powders are more forgiving.........I want to work on that theory and offer some solid proof one way or the other soon....but it seems to me that the quicker the pressure curve peaks and drops off for a given pressure the more consistant the result will be at the muzzle end of things. This must be balanced against exceeding the strength of the alloy at too low a velocity for the load to be usefull.


Bill

[felix]

Willbird, you are thinking correctly in that any boolit-time in the barrel is against you. This is why you want to shoot with the shortest barrel possible. Well, most shooters cannot shoot short barrels because of no balance, and so the barrels are made fatter to compensate. This you can emulate with powder to some extent, and you have already considered the I-gotchas. ... felix

[Buckshot]

.............I think that one of the reason for faster powders to work well is of 2 main things. One is that they are easier to ignite in charges small for the case volumn. The other is that even though the boolits may be as heavy as those normally shot, they engrave easier and travel down the barrel with less friction (imho). Since the faster powders ignite easier they're possibly more consistant within a range of variables caused by the lead boolit.

I understand that in the 38 Special, especially with target type loads that the powder is gone and peak pressure is reached before the boolit's base has cleared the casemouth. In this scenario variations of combustion taking place as the slug moves down the barrel is eliminated.

With reduced charges of the more common slower 'full power' type powders, ignition could be a bit more casual and vary from shot to shot. Even primer performance taking a part in this with these powders. And especially if the powder is unconfined and in random positions within the case.

Just some random thoughts.

.............Buckshot

[beagle]

In shooting these lightweights, it seems that the "back pressure" or weight of the bullet is working against you as far as ignition is concerned. I just get better burns with the fast burners.

Of course, I'm not trying to find the fastest velocity I can get but rather have a target velocity in mind to acheive and it seems as if these fast burners are working better for that particular window of velocity.

All of the comments above seem approprate and indicative of what I'm seeing.

Now, I realize that fast burners are not the cure all for all loads but in this case, seems to work good with the 225438 and the 225107. Too bad the 225107 is discontinued and is so expensive when found on E-Bay. It's a nice little number and would probably find a good following if reintroduced by Lyman.

Another interesting point I'll bring up is that there seems to be quite a bit of interest in .22 cast shooting. Try to buy a 225438 or heaven forbid, a 225107 on E-Bay. I think there's more .22 cast shooting going on that people care to admit to.

Takes a little care in the casting, culling, and sizing but they're fun to shoot and cheap./beagle

[Willbird]

I think we need a project to make 17 caliber cast bullets beagle, with gaschecks no less. Why with a 6 cavity you could still cast all day without having to refill the pot.


Bill

[beagle]

Willbird...bite your tongue. .22s are hard enough to handle and see as ham fisted and blind as I am.

Still, a 20 pound pot of alloy and a pound of Bullseye would go a long way./beagle

[Poygan]

I'm learning greater levels of patience casting and lubing .25acp. Plus, at 1.4 grains of Bullseye, I think I can wear out either me or the little Beretta with only one pound of powder. Now I have to wonder, is this frugality or idiocy?

[wills]

Keep at it. We are trying to convince Deputy Al he needs a Mauser and a 1911 in the caliber, to really explore its overlooked potential.

[9.3X62AL]

Yeah, Wills. I can see a wide range of game that can be harvested with the 25 ACP with cast boolits--sparrows, mockingbirds, starlings, even crows after a close stalk. Given that I have a 25 caliber RWS air rifle that gives the 25 ACP a good race ballistically, I'll stick to the air gun. It knocks crows right on their natural aspirations.

I have gotten away from the "fast powder" bit in the rifle calibers to a large extent, using 2400 in a lot of my rifle loads these days as well as some of the WC-860 ultraslow stuff. I suppose 2400 is at the slow end of the fast powder spectrum for rifles, though. If none of the medium-speed powders enable the 25-20 to provide consistent accuracy, I may turn to the pistol fuels as a last-ditch desperation move before the jacketed bullet default setting is resorted to.

[carpetman]

Deputy Al---Using an air rifle in 25 cal, I'd say that getting away from fast powders in that cal was a real smart move on your part.

[wills]

Yeah, Wills. I can see a wide range of game that can be harvested with the 25 ACP with cast boolits--sparrows, mockingbirds, .

Didnt you know "It's a sin to kill a mockingbird"? And here in Texas since it is our State Bird you could find yourself the guest of honor at some field improvised justice.

[9.3X62AL]

No mockingbirds get whacked hereabouts, they eat bugs in the garden and yard, so they are a net gain to have around. Crows are the only targets in the yard--and then only if they tear up the garden stuff.

Californians had the good taste to elect a state bird that tastes good--the valley quail. The season runs about 3 months' duration.

I'm still not going to cast, reload for, or acquire a 25 ACP anything.

[wills]

You can hunt the state bird, interesting concept.

[carpetman]

Wills---Not sure what other states have such,but the state bird of Alaska is the Ptarmagin which is hunted. Looks like about 5 other states have edible state bird. l

[X-man]

In running a bunch of tests with light bullets in the .223 in the 40 grain range, I quickly learned that the powders I was using for slightly heavier projectiles were inefficient for the lighter bullets.

I earlier posted my success with Hodgdon's Longshot and evidently BullshopJr has been using it as well with success.

I had earlier used some really fast burners for making whisper loads in the 600 FPS range with good success. I now wondered if I could get similar results up to the 2,00-2,100 FPS range.

I started off with Red Dot and 700-X and easily acheived my velocities. I then branched out to Unique, Clays, Titegroup, Bullseye, Universal, Green Dot and almost any fast burner on my shelf. I was able to reach my intended velocities of 2,000+ with each of these powders with no apparent problems and after I switched to Hornady gas checks, good accuracy running from 3/4" to 1.5" with all loads tested using a 225438HP bullet weighing 44.2 grains.

Of course, there is the possibility of a double charge and this is the downside but the results and good handloading procedures justify the end result.

I know I'm gonna be using a lot more of these powders with light bullets in the future as the old reliable .223 cast powders just won't burn efficiently with these lighter bullets./beagle

Hey Beagle,

Have you done anything else with this project since you last posted? I'm going to try something similar for my Remington 700 Classic .223 as well as my Parker-Hale & Remington 700VS in .22-250. Just picked up a new box of Hornady gas checks, got a new RCBS .22-055-SP and a batch of new alloy all ready to go. And now that I've got my new top punch delivered courtesy of a fellow board member here, I'm ready to rock! Has anybody used .22 cast bullets on Coyotes successfully? i.e., clean kills with no wounded animals getting away?

[beagle]

I finished my series of tests with the fast burners and light bullets last week. I was able to successfully find good loads for about all of the fast burners I had on hand.

Bear in mind, I was looking for something in the 2,000 FPS range and these bullets were all less than 45 grains. With the 22-55-SP, you can use a slower burning powder. N110, 2400, WC820 and Blue Dot all have done well for me with that bullet.

I learned some pretty important lessons. Use hornady gas checks. Size as big as possible. Be ruthless in culling your bullets.

I tested some 22-55-SP HPs against 22-55-SP (solids) on oranges last week. Velocity was arount 2100 FPS. The solids burst the orange skin but the HPs completely exploded the oranges and in fact drove parts down into the plastic juice bottles I was using for an orange stand.

Based on these tests, I'd say they would do all right on yotes out to about 150 yards.

This morning, we decided to shoot 200 and 300 yards. I was able to put 3 225646s into 3" at 300 yards. I was also able to put three 225462s into 1 1/2" at 200 yards so the accuracy is there....if the GC stays on and doesn't disrupt the bullet flight. This was with junk bullets with some old Sierra checks that I was using up. With Hornady checks, no doubt I could hold this accuracy for varmints.

I ran out of elevation on my scope. A remilled lower front mount is in order for these long range range and mostly plinking sessions if this is to be a regular thing.

Drop me an e-mail and I'll share the data with you./beagle