Hi-Standard Citation ?

[Rusty W]

I recently purchased one & upon a closer inspection I noticed a notch on the breechface right where the firing pin lines up. I assume it's from dry firing but was wondering if it could be done at the factory. It seems to fire & function fine & I can't tell that the peening protrudes into the chamber. Just wondering if it was "normal" or needed a smith to correct it.
Sorry for the poor quality pics. Cell phone camera is all I have.

[d4xycrq]

Rusty,

That indent is just what you presume...somebody dry fired the hell out it. I'd be more worried about the firing pin. Nevertheless, take her shootin'! I love those High-Standards.

Ray

[shotman]

ditto
that is some dumb gun guy that had that
like d4 said look at the fireing pin

[Tom-ADC]

Years ago I shot on our squadrons pistol team, Supermatic Citation with muzzle brake & barrel weights, gun was a tack driver can't believe I ever let that one get away.

[Rusty W]

Got to looking closer and it seems the slide lock/release is missing also. Haven't taken the grip off to look closer & see what all is going on. On my lunch break now but will pull it apart for a detail inspection later this evening. Hope there's parts available....& cheap. I have $300.00 in the pistol maybe this won't hurt too bad.

Thanks for the reply's guys. I'm getting an education on Hi-Standard. Heading to Rimfire Central now.

[Artful]

I love my HS victor. Once you get back in correct configuration you'll love yours. Note: they can be ammo sensitive so try several different brands.

[bobthenailer]

At a price of $300.00 you have alot of room to play with ! a compleate spring kit is also avaliable from Wolff gun springs or Brownells as well as seperate springs.
the part you want is the slide lock leaver & slide lock spring and are avaliable from Brownells in the Hi Std gun parts section. or the gun spring section for the Wolff springs
the slide lock leaver spring and the sear bar spring are 2 commenley lost springs for the HS pistols when dissasembly is done . i would get a few extra to have on hand !

[barrabruce]

You can gentle relive the peened bit in the chamber with a fine file "if it needs it"
Or a small engine valve is about the right diameter if I can remember to rub ? gently knock it back out a bit.

But if its working and not causing issues leave it be.

hope it helps!!!!

Seek pro advice 1st

[Rusty W]

I called High Standard in Houston this morning. They had the spring & slide lock/release in stock. So for $15.00 plus shipping it'll be back to "semi" normal. I shot about 50rds through it yesterday & it seems to run fine. I really like the sights & trigger. I can see the sights better on it than on my Ruger MkII's & the trigger is no comparison. I intended to sell it and make a little profit but I think I'll hand on to it for a while. At least till the new wears off..

[Stork]

Rusty,
First off. Great find!

I would highly recommend NOT filing the firing pin burr off. Brownells makes a chamber iron for swaging these burrs out of the chamber.

For the $22 one costs, its money well spent to do it right.

Link:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=8869/Product/-22-CHAMBER-IRONING-TOOL

This is not rare on rimfire's.

FWIW

[bobthenailer]

IMO You will probely end up keeping the Citation and selling the ruger, or keep both of them !which is what i would do.

[jcw1970]

I had a victor with the same problem. My local gunsmith was able to peen it smooth. I don't think it was a deep as your though. Only complaint I have with High Standards is you can't shoot high velocity 22's through them and with the price of standard velocity 22's, I don't shoot them as much as I'd like. Don't even get me started on finding 22 short standard velocity rounds. I sold my mint 1964 Olympic with the 5.5 bull barrel ( Only year you could get one) because of the lack and price of ammo.

[ClemY]

Rusty,
First off. Great find!

I would highly recommend NOT filing the firing pin burr off. Brownells makes a chamber iron for swaging these burrs out of the chamber.

For the $22 one costs, its money well spent to do it right.

Link:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=8869/Product/-22-CHAMBER-IRONING-TOOL

This is not rare on rimfire's.

FWIW

I got the Brownell's swager several years ago. It has come in handy on several occasions, most recently on a 1949 vintage High Standard HB.

[kcajeel]

Most any gun shops have the swager tool that you're talking about to iron out the "strike" area. I have a Hi Standard Victor that will make the same mark that you have on your gun. It doesn't take a lot of dryfiring to do that either as has been suggested. If your firing pin is too long you can do damage on one strike of the firing pin. So if you do have the indention ironed out do have the firing pin fixed by a competent gunsmith. I'll give you 3 to 1 odds that it's too long and if it isn't shortened it'll do it again. I AM TALKING FROM EXPERIENCE. I put a brand new custom barrel on mine without having the firing pin shortened. My gunsmith said it couldn't be shortened (major BS don't listen to that one).
You have a nice pistol there fix it right.

[oldwood1]

I shot Hi-Standards on a Naval pistol team in the late 60,s, great guns. Later went to a S&W 41 probably should have stayed with the Hi- Standard or quite all together!

[cat223]

Hi-Standard has to be my favorite 22 pistol of all time. My dad still has his and it was the first pistol I shot as a kid. Hang on to that, it's a real keeper.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Apart from using th eswager on the chamber I wouldn't worry about the dent unless you are getting misfires.

If that is the case, I have seen my gunsmith mate fix a few 22 pistols with a huge dent from dry firing. He used to drill the hole and silver solder a piece of drill rod into the hole. Then he trimmed it off. Barely visible if done properly and the case is now fully supported and the firing pin can do it's voodoo that it do so well!

Great guns. My friend is selling a High Standard Citation in great condition for $300. I am so tempted, but have an old Browning Medallist and a Baikal target standard pistol and a Cyner slide for my 1911. I really don't need the guns I have, let alone more.

[mstarling]

Many, many years ago I bought a High Standard M106 bull barrel w a comp and barrel weight for $65 through the want ads in the Washington Post.

Never gave me a minutes trouble.

Put it in the back of the safe when my kids got past the 22 pistol phase of their training and kinda forgot about it.

Got interested in suppressors and acquired a Bowers Paradigm can with a SIG Mosquito. Took forever for the Form 4 to be approved. The can is great, but the pistol is kind of a hunk of junk. Remembered the M106 in the back of the safe. Really did not want to cut the original barrel so looked in Brownell's and the do indeed carry high quality barrels including after market barrels made by LSP from Douglas barrel stock. Bought one and had it threaded. Put a Burris FastFire II on it. Came out GREAT!

http://www.mstarling.com/Album/HS_Paradigm_vsm.jpg

The old ones are sometimes the best ones!

[H.Callahan]

Only complaint I have with High Standards is you can't shoot high velocity 22's through them and with the price of standard velocity 22's, I don't shoot them as much as I'd like.
I've not heard that before. My Supermatic Tournament seems to eat them all day. I will grant that the standard velocity rounds seem to be a little more accurate, but not enough to stop me from using high vels.

[dpaultx]

The "old" High Standards (basically the early "fixed barrel" Model B's, Model A's, E's, GB's, HD Military's, etc.) were all designed for, and should be shot only with, standard velocity ammo.

The newer models (basically, any HS with a "removable barrel") are generally safe to shoot with high velocity ammo, but, like you, I have found standard velocity ammo to be far more accurate out of my victors, trophy's, and sport king.

I broke the take-down lever, in an HD Military, shooting Stingers through it back when they first came out. I'd hate to have to try finding one of those parts today.

[M-Tecs]

I disagree. The current Texas HS with the stainless from is rated for HV ammo. With all others you are risking cracking the frame by the slide release. I have shot a lot of HV in mine. I stopped after a couple of buddies had their frames crack with HV. Some good info over on rimfire central.

[W.R.Buchanan]

One Of the biggest mistakes of my gun fancy is selling my High Standard Trophy. I traded it for a Ruger 10/22 in 1975 and hated the 10/22 and sold it immediately. Result, No 10/22 no HI Standard.

I have nevr seen another I could afford.

Most recent ones I've seen at gun shows were in the $6-800 range. I'm still bummed about mine, but life goes on.

Randy

[stocker]

The chamber indent might cause either or both of two problems, the first being failures to fire. The second is the case may pressure form over the burr and cause extraction problems. Do not try to file or (shudder) Dremel the burr away. A chamber iron (swage) as suggested is the correct fix. The object is to restore the metal to it's original position and eliminate any future fail to fire problems that might occur from the indent.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Dry firing a 22 rimfire is bad for firing pins and anything else around them. Use a snap cap or at least an already fired 22 casing in the chamber to discourage strain and damage. Correcting harm that is already done is best left to a competent gunsmith or the manufacturer. In a quality target pistol especially, why risk messing something up worse?
The other issue, specifically in High Standard target pistols is the controversy of using High velocity ammo. The consensus of professional opinion is that the HV ammo will either crack the frame and/or shorten the life of the gun. And what about HV use in Smith 41s? of course there is the volley of opinion of the other side of the coin that states that they have been using everything from HV, Stingers, and all other brands, etc for years and nothing negative has happened.
I just purchased a new Victor Tenex at considerable cost and after some reading on the rimfire forum I am very hesitant to fool around/risk the possibility of turning a Tenex into a paperweight. I hit up a number of sources locally and found that most of the stuff on the shelves is HV. I found some standard velocity CCI and bought it as well as some Federal "Auto Match", that says on the box "Target Grade Performance"....its MV is marked as 1200fps which seems a little fast and not much slower than the HV stuff. Anybody have any experience with CCI Standard or this Federal stuff? Does CCI still make "Green Tag"? and what about Remington "target"...is it still around? Your thoughts and opinions are appreciated. LLS

[flounderman]

I have had a supermatic for about 50 years and it was used when I got it. I have shot mostly hi speed in it with no problems. I don't have any faith in any of the affordable 22 amunition available today. that said it all will shoot better than you can, offhand. if a high standard cracked the frame from using high speed ammunition, the spring must have been weak for it to happen.

[Wayne Smith]

Snap caps - the little yellow hollow wall anchors are a perfect fit in the .22 chamber. The rim will take two or three strikes before you need to turn it to another area. I buy them 50 or 100 at a time, essentially only use them in the .22's.

[W.R.Buchanan]

referring to the pic of the M106 with the supressor, My gun was the same gun with the rear sight mounted to the slide, however it was not designated M106 (that I remember) It had a 5 1/2" bbl.

I think it was a civilian version of the gun called maybe a "Military Trophy or Military Tournament?" I bought it in Texas in 1971. for about $69.

I know the grip was designed to diuplicate the 1911 grip even though it had a slight thumb rest on the left side.

Randy

[Le Loup Solitaire]

A forum named Rimfire Central.com has HS models listed and corresponding serial numbers that are indexed by years of manufacture. Other links listed describe the markings depending on what you are looking for. It goes back a long ways. The forum itself seems to be organized along the same lines as ours here. A lot of very interesting stuff for 22 devotees. Certainly worth a look. LLS

[Crawdaddy]

Years ago I shot on our squadrons pistol team, Supermatic Citation with muzzle brake & barrel weights, gun was a tack driver can't believe I ever let that one get away.

I have one too. I inherited it from my dad. He won quite a few competitions with it. I took it out after he died and couldn't hit a darn thing. Pulled it apart and there wasn't any rifling left. I can't imagine how many rounds must have been put through it. I wish I could find a barrel for it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have one too. I inherited it from my dad. He won quite a few competitions with it. I took it out after he died and couldn't hit a darn thing. Pulled it apart and there wasn't any rifling left. I can't imagine how many rounds must have been put through it. I wish I could find a barrel for it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Can you get it relined? They sell for about $300 here, hardly worth spending much money on them. But, yours is different, they are worth a lot more there and it has sentimental value as well. One advantage of relining as I see it, for a sentimental piece, the externals are maintained exactly the same. Perhaps pick up another and then sell it at a reduced price or use your Dad's gun for rat shot.

I passed over a Supermatic recently in great condition with an extra set of grips for a southpaw, which was $300. I liked it, but I have two 22 auto pistols already and only really use them as loaners for new shooters. Also,I had bought two rifles and a whole heap of reloading stuff that week and felt that I had been irresponsible enough already without adding to it, lol.

[M-Tecs]

I have one too. I inherited it from my dad. He won quite a few competitions with it. I took it out after he died and couldn't hit a darn thing. Pulled it apart and there wasn't any rifling left. I can't imagine how many rounds must have been put through it. I wish I could find a barrel for it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Lots of High Standard barrel choices.

http://www.highstandard.com/weapons-a-products/parts.html

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7928/Product/MATCH-BARRELS-for-HIGH-STANDARD

https://www.volquartsen.com/products/485-match-barrel-for-high-standard

http://www.ct-precision.com/highstandard.html

http://www.lsp-vt.com/Shooting_Accessories.html

I would try a good cleaning to get all the lead out first. I know of one that is still shooting OK after 500 rounds a week for the last 30 years. That’s over ¾ million rounds. I own one that I know I have 50,000 plus rounds through it and it shoots great.

[Crawdaddy]

Thanks for the advice and links , I appreciate it.

I checked the links and didn't see one for a Supermatic. I will email HS though.

Any suggestions on who to go to for reclining?

Headed to the safe now to make sure it isn't leaded up.

[M-Tecs]

Never had a barrel relining. The folks at www.rimfirecentral.com might have a recommedation. Go the the HS section and ask. Which model Supermatic and what barrel length?

[Crawdaddy]

Supermatic citation. Looks like 7.5 inches.

[M-Tecs]

Supermatic citation. Looks like 7.5 inches.

That should make it a 102 to 107 Series with the fluted barrel? More good info here http://www.highstandard.info/

[Grendl]

Le loup, Could I ask what the initials stamped under the grip panel of your victor tenex are.
If this is a new production Victor Tenex you could shoot HV ammo without too much worry, but if you are looking for accuracy, standard or match velocity ammo will perform much better. When I was test firing these 15-20 years ago Ely tenex ammo gave the best results with federal gold medal following close behind.
For general knowledge: the frames on the older HS pistols were un heat treated carbon steel frames and were prone to cracking as noted in earlier posts, this cracking can sometimes be repaired but can be costly. Have fun with your victor, they are a joy to shoot

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Thanx very much for your reply on HV ammo use in HS target pistols...and your good suggestions as to what ammo to use for optimum results. My Victor Ten-x is new production....it is still on special order and when it gets here in a few more weeks I will try and fish up the initials on it. I also have a Supermatic Trophy made in 73-75 which probably is in the non treated carbon steel frame category so I'll keep that one in the standard/ non HV range...and probably the Victor as well. Eley, RWS, Lapaua and several major US companies produce match grade level ammo. but as you know one has to try out various brands to see what the gun likes before choosing one. I chose the Ten-X over the standard Vic to get the best possible but figured that if I couldn't do well with the Ten then it wasn't worth going after the "Bob Shea" version that cost even more. Again thank you for your valuable info. LLS

[Four Fingers of Death]

[QUOTE=Crawdaddy;1806046]Any suggestions on who to go to for reclining?QUOTE]

haHa! Harvey Norman is my favourite furniture store, but you don't have them in the States!

[shotstring]

I had a High Standard Victor back in the 70's and used a steady diet of HV ammo through it week after week, month after month with no negative effects. In fact, at the time, I wasn't even aware that people used standard velocity ammunition. I used it as a hunting pistol for rabbits and such and hunted every weekend with it.

I don't understand why someone would prefer the high standards to a s & w 41 though. Accuracy is certainly as good and the high standard pistols where such a pain to take down to clean - at least all mine were. Both Citation and Victor needed to be beat on with a piece of wood on the takedown plunger to get it to move. Royal pain in the ***, almost as bad as taking down and putting back together a Ruger 22. By comparison a 41 is a dream to shoot and even better to take down and reassemble. Wish I'd known about s & w 41s before I bought my High Standard pistols.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have a couple of 41's and they are excellent target pistols; very accurate and a bit easier to take down than high standards although I have never had to beat on the disassembly buttons. Both are considered premium pistols and are held in high esteem...and command premium prices. Older models of the HS had a hex bolt instead and it had a tendency to loosen. Rugers especially the Mark ones and twos were an absolute hassle..not so much to take apart, but to reassemble...the focus being on correct positioning of the hammer strut. It took some practice to master that. My own opinion is that either HS and/or S&W are definitely superior to the Rugers in terms of trigger control and accuracy. As to the use of HV ammo in the High Standards, I previously posted concerns based on a lot of reading done on other forums where much mention was made of frames cracking due to increased battering due to the higher fps and shortening of the life of the gun. It was again, in my opinion, worthwhile to further investigate/inquire on the issue. There were many contributions pro and con on the subject. In examining recently some of the standard 22 ammo currently available, the velocities are around 1070 or 1080 fps whereas the HV Stuff is around 1155 to 1200. In general the spread appears to be about 100 fps difference and frankly speaking that does not seem to be a whole lot to get excited about in terms of damage to currently produced guns by either HS or S&W. I would however wonder about the use of HV ammo that is traveling significantly faster than that. Thank you for your thoughts. LLS

[brassrat]

I sit at my reloading bench and reach up for the rubber mallet when working on the gun. Not too bad to take apart if you don't have to look around for a weapon for the weapon. I am still plenty strong to finish pushing the button, but I can see how it could become a problem in future.

[Artful]

Geez, at the end of the night of bullseye shooting, with the Victor empty and slide locked back, I'd just place the take down button on the edge of the table and lean on it while holding the rib, then just pluck the barrel off and start cleaning the pistol. No wooden or rubber clubs needed.

[brassrat]

I think they are tougher to remove, sometimes. The bench edge method would not work for me. My aftermarket barrel wouldn't even go on at first. It needed a little work and then was extremely hard to remove. It is much better now and may work with your method but I like the mallet method.

[Artful]

Wack a gun if you have too, I guess
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZA2VnjwXLQU/0.jpg

[brassrat]

That guy is gonna get in all kinds of trouble cleaning his gun in traffic

[shotstring]

Geez, at the end of the night of bullseye shooting, with the Victor empty and slide locked back, I'd just place the take down button on the edge of the table and lean on it while holding the rib, then just pluck the barrel off and start cleaning the pistol. No wooden or rubber clubs needed.

lol

I too tried the edge of the wood table technique and ended up with a half inch chunk of the table gouged out and the stuck take down button exactly where it was when I started.:killingpc

Now, when I clean my S & W 41, there is only a slight breeze from their wings as angels seem to effortlessly free the barrel and carry it from the frame.

[MRW]

I have read numerous posts on different forums claiming HV ammo will damage a HS pistol. Others say putting a heavier recoil spring will absorb the HV recoil but then batter the breech face. This all confuses me because I just bought a Sport King from a pawn shop 1952 vintage according to serial # and looking at the machine work it is a work of art. If HV ammo will damage them then how do these current crop of .22 autos with alloy frames and actions similar to HS hold up to HV ammo without frames cracking and breech faces getting battered because I am sure "their' springs are heavier and fit and finish isn't even close to what this gun is. Some of this talk reminds me of the black powder shooters who claim 12L14 barrels all blow up but no one ever has ever seen one first hand and with all of the guns out there that have them it should be happening at least once a day. I am quite sure a large number of HS auto have been fed a steady diet of HV with no problems especially when some of the info sent with the guns said for standard and hv ammo. Is 150 fps really that much hotter in a .22? Please note I am not trying to fan flames here just trying to figure out where some of this information comes from

[rking22]

Below is a quote from HSCa forum response. I too have a vintage Supermatic and sportking pistols.Amd I have shot some HV in them to no bad effect. I think Mr. Stintsons reply explaines it well:

HSCA link http://disc.yourwebapps.com/Indices/226190.html

John J. Stimson, Jr
Standard velocity ammunition recommended
Thu May 22, 2014 13:07
99.0.30.49


Hello Larry,

Yes, it is not only recommended that you use standard velocity ammunition and further that you use ammunition in the 1080 FPS range. These are older guns and don't need the extra level of battering that high velocity ammunition causes.

From previous responses:

High Standard frame cracks

I have observed frame cracks in the letter series models with types I-A and I-B takedown. This is independent of whether or not the model has a slide lock. These models crack between the top of the takedown lever pin slot and the top of the frame.

In my experience, the letter and hammer letter series guns with the type II takedown have no history of frame cracks. The weak link is the stop lug and I haven't seen many with this cracked. The crack is in the thin section around the takedown lever.

In my experience, the lever letter, lever name,100, and 101 series pistols have no history of frame cracking.

The 102, 103, 104, 106, 107 and SH series all have the same geometry and are all subject to frame cracking.

The Dura-Matic family is completely different. There is no thin section where cracks are likely to form. The stop lug impact area is pretty small and may develop some significant signs of battering but if these surfaces begin to mushroom, a burr knife and or a needle file can probably deal with it.

The likelihood of cracking is governed by some things beyond our control and some things within our control.

We have no control of where in the tolerance band of hardness the frame falls. This factor determines the endurance limit of the steel.

We have no control of where in the tolerance range the actual dimensions around the area where the cracks fall at the thin section between the right rear of the magazine well and the pocket for the slide lock lever. Even though the tolerances are not large the worst case scenario even small tolerances have significant effects.

We have no control of the corner radius of the cutting tools which determine the stress concentration factors.

We might be able to mitigate the stress concentration factors associated with surface roughness/texture but in doing so may further thin the critical section and in the end do more harm than good.

Some claim that this problem exists because AISI 1045 is just an old alloy steel which it is but so is the precipitation hardening steel being used by the new High Standard in Houston. That stainless allow was available before the 102 series was designed. It was not and is not as cheap as the medium carbon allow used in the Connecticut guns.

These is one instance reported on my forum where a gun purchased by the original owner new from the factory fired only standard velocity ammunition and changed the driving spring regularly and still had a failure at a relatively low round count. As I recall the section was thinner and rough with sharp corners in the pockets all of which are worst case issues.

What we can do to reduce and perhaps eliminate the frame cracking is to replace the driving spring in a timely manner and to use only standard velocity ammunition.

My preference is to use an ammunition at the lower end of the standard velocity range for all these fine old guns. Just because some design series guns do not have a history of frame or other part failures does not mean that I believe it is a good idea to subject them the higher stresses that will be associated with the high velocity ammunition.

For reference, it is commonly understood that standard velocity .22 rimfire ammunition falls between about 1080 feet per second and about 1150 feet per second as rated by the ammunition companies when fired through a rifle length barrel. Some erroneously believe that any ammunition that falls within this range from a pistol barrel is satisfactory.

As noted by the example above,, one cannot guarantee that a frame will not crack simply by using standard velocity ammunition and keeping the driving spring in spec but it is a step in the right direction. Using ammunition at the lower end of the standard velocity range is the best you can do with respect to the ammunition.

Note that standard velocity and high velocity ammunition has the same approximate velocities in the thirties through the present. Check the ballistic tables in the old gun annuals to confirm this for yourself.

Note that the factory instruction sheets do say that either standard or high velocity ammunition is OK. This has for some models proven to be an incorrect statement and there is no one to turn to now if something breaks.

These are my opinions based on my own observations.

Note that free advice is sometimes worth less that you pay for it.

What you really do is your choice.

John Stimson

[M-Tecs]

rking22 Thanks for the excellent post.