Ballistics Software Question

[Marlin Junky]

I have a question for you guys with ballistic software:

AA has published a load using RCBS 35-200, CCI-200 primer and 38.0 grains of AA2520. According to AA this load develops 30,900 PSI at a COL of 2.41" in their test gun. My question is: how much would the pressure increase if a 247 grain SAECO 352 were substituted for the RCBS 35-200 and would the load still be OK in a '51 vintage 336? I've already tried 37 grains under a little lighter/harder SAECO 352 and the pressure appeared OK.

Question 2: Who makes the best ballistics software under 300 bucks?

Thanks,
MJ

P.S. I guess I'd better reveal the cartridge... it's a .35 Remington... sorry

[JeffinNZ]

Can't answer your question sorry but here is FREE software that WORKS!!!!

http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3

[wiljen]

I've been using ballistic basics by bazoesoft. It gives me the functionality I need and was $50 when I bought it. I think their website is still bazoesoft.com

[Marlin Junky]

Maybe I should have specified Internal ballistics because I'm looking for pressure data. I can determine everything I need to know once the boolit has left the muzzle with a chronograph and range-finder.

I downloaded the 10 day demo from bazoesoft.com but don't see any way to specify a particular powder in the "Interior Ballistics Powder Calculator (BETA 1.4)" dialog box. It looks like the only parameters it'll accept are cartridge, bore diameter, case capacity in grains of water, bullet weight and effective barrel length. I'm either missing something or need to spend more money.

MJ

[Ranch Dog]

Marlin Junky...

I use Load From A Disk (http://www.loadammo.com/) for most of my loads and have found it pretty accurate and a great help with cast boolits as we typically don't have anything to go by... such as in your case. LFD is going to select about 6 to 10 of the best powders that will work with the cartridge/bullet combination and be aware that AA2520 might not be one of them.

If you give me the boolit length and your desired cartridge overall length, I will run it and see what comes up.

[Marlin Junky]

Ranch Dog,

Thanks for the offer because I downloaded the demo and it said it had expired before I had a chance to run it! The boolit on the right is the SAECO 352 while the one on the left is the ubiquitous RCBS 35-200-FN (for the sake of comparison). The COL is about 2.48 and the boolit itself is about 1" long. If you need more accuracy, I'll post exact dimensions after I load about 60 rounds tomorrow or the next day.

MJ

P.S. BTW, what about my question regarding your 359-180 mold?

[Ranch Dog]

Load From a Disk recommended 14 powders but as I suspected AA2520 wasn't one of them. The only AA powder the software recommended was AA2230 and here are the pressure and velocity charts it generated...

http://gunloads.com/fam/ranchdogmolds/Share/SEACOCUPvsCharge.gif

http://gunloads.com/fam/ranchdogmolds/Share/SEACOFPSvsCharge.gif

About the closest I could get to AA2520 from the list of recommended powders was H4895 and there were only very small differences in pressure and velocity between these powders. It even recommended 36.1-grains of AA2230 (1764 FPS/35.7K CUP) & H4895 (1741 FPS/34.8K CUP) as being optimum. If you just had to work with AA2520, just judge the load by these. Here are the H4895 charts.

http://gunloads.com/fam/ranchdogmolds/Share/SEACO352H4895Pressure.gif

http://gunloads.com/fam/ranchdogmolds/Share/SEACO352H4895Velocity.gif

The bottom line is it looks like your 37.0-grain load from your opening post is great and safe. 38.0-grains of H4895 is still under 40.0K CUP... I'd work into it as long as your boolit alloy is withstanding this kind of pressure.

[Ranch Dog]

I must of missed your question concerning the TLC359-180-RF... could you ask me again? I won't be back until late tonight or early Monday...

[Marlin Junky]

Ranch Dog,

I don't see my question about your 359-180 either. I must have asked it somewhere else or I never actually posted it. Basically, I just wanted to know if you are selling the 359-180 molds in Lee 6-cavity format and whether it would be a good choice for max. loads in a .360" Ballard rifled 336. How well do the shallow lube grooves retain lube during the pan lubing process? I'll go take a look at your website for now.

I was also wondering how the output from Load From A Disk would change if you simply substituted RCBS 35-200 for the SAECO 352 (same hardness).

MJ

P.S. I like the looks of your .460's... and I'll be getting a 45-70 barrel for my H-R pretty soon too.

[Ranch Dog]

Ranch Dog,

I don't see my question about your 359-180 either. I must have asked it somewhere else or I never actually posted it. Basically, I just wanted to know if you are selling the 359-180 molds in Lee 6-cavity format and whether it would be a good choice for max. loads in a .360" Ballard rifled 336. How well do the shallow lube grooves retain lube during the pan lubing process? I'll go take a look at your website for now.

I was also wondering how the output from Load From A Disk would change if you simply substituted RCBS 35-200 for the SAECO 352 (same hardness).

MJ

P.S. I like the looks of your .460's... and I'll be getting a 45-70 barrel for my H-R pretty soon too.

MJ...

Initially, I will be just selling the TLC432s and TLC460. I hope to add the TLC359 soon. The cost of the inventory to be able to sell a 2-cavity mold at $24.50 is a pretty costly investment. If the initial response makes the endeavor worth while, I will be adding all the designs in both 2 and 6-cavity molds.

If you need a .360", the TLC359 might work depending on the alloy you cast with. I've slugged a bunch of the Marlins, including an early Ballard SC I own (.3583"), and they are all tight. My success with the boolits is to employ as little sizing as possible. Actually, about all I look for is seating the gas checks. I'm pushing this little boolit beyond 2500 FPS out of my 336ER and have not had problems with the lube... nice little star on the end of the barrel. I only tumble lube with the Lee Liquid Alox and do not pan lube.

Give me a length on the RCBS boolit if you will.

My preference is with the 180-grain boolit in the 35 Rem. I've done a bunch of work with this caliber and these big boolits rob too much of the limited case capacity. Here is a chart of my 180-grain boolit (T1... actual performance from my 336D with it's 18.5" barrel) vs. the forecasted FPE from the 247-grain SAECO 352 (T2... which it's velocity would need to be verified).

http://gunloads.com/fam/ranchdogmolds/Share/180vs247.gif

[Ranch Dog]

Ranch Dog,

I don't see my question about your 359-180 either. I must have asked it somewhere else or I never actually posted it. Basically, I just wanted to know if you are selling the 359-180 molds in Lee 6-cavity format and whether it would be a good choice for max. loads in a .360" Ballard rifled 336. How well do the shallow lube grooves retain lube during the pan lubing process? I'll go take a look at your website for now.

I was also wondering how the output from Load From A Disk would change if you simply substituted RCBS 35-200 for the SAECO 352 (same hardness).

MJ

P.S. I like the looks of your .460's... and I'll be getting a 45-70 barrel for my H-R pretty soon too.

MJ...

Initially, I will be just selling the TLC432s and TLC460. I hope to add the TLC359 soon. The cost of the inventory to be able to sell a 2-cavity mold at $24.50 is a pretty costly investment. If the initial response makes the endeavor worth while, I will be adding all the designs in both 2 and 6-cavity molds.

If you need a .360", the TLC359 might work depending on the alloy you cast with. I've slugged a bunch of the Marlins, including an early Ballard SC I own (.3583"), and they are all tight. My success with the boolit is to employ as little sizing as possible using a die that just gets the gas check on. It would probably work and that is about all I look for... seating the gas checks. I'm pushing this little boolit beyond 2500 FPS out of my 336ER and have not had problems with the lube... nice little star on the end of the barrel. I only tumble lube with the Lee Liquid Alox and do not pan lube so that is my experience.

Give me a length on the RCBS boolit if you will.

My preference is with the 180-grain boolit in the 35 Rem. I've done a bunch of work with this caliber and these big boolits rob too much of the limited case capacity. Here is a chart of my 180-grain boolit (T1... actual performance from my 336D with it's 18.5" barrel) vs. the forecasted FPE from the 247-grain SAECO 352 (T2... which it's velocity would need to be verified).

http://gunloads.com/fam/ranchdogmolds/Share/180vs247.gif

[Marlin Junky]

Ranch Dog,

The SAECO 352 would be used primarily as a silhouette boolit and 2000 fps from a 24" bbl shouldn't be a problem as the case capacity will allow at least 38 grains of AA2520. I would just like to know whether my old gun will handle the pressure over the long haul. I'm participating in the .360-220 group buy hoping that the design can be used for hunting big deer and perhaps even an occasional elk or two in WY because it has a lot of its weight outside the case; i.e, it will seat to about the shoulder. Whether the nose will fit up the bore easily enough remains to be seen. I am interested in your 180+ grain boolit primarily as a venison gathering device.

The checked SAECO 352 is just about 15 BHN, weighs 247 grains, is 1.04" long, .3605" in diameter and should seat approx. 7/16" into the case. However, if the nose is fatter now because the last time I used the mold I shimmed it for a bit more shank diameter, it may need to seat about 1/2" deep in order to chamber. I won't know for sure until tonight's charging/seating session. Nevertheless, there's plenty of room for 38 grains of AA2520.

MJ

P.S. I almost forgot to ask... how hard is the alloy you're using to do 2500 fps with the 359-180?

[Ranch Dog]

Greetings MJ...

I'm using 1 to 1 WW/linotype water quenched. It checks out at 31 BHN with my Lee Tester.

[Marlin Junky]

Ranch Dog,

The checked SAECO 352 is about 15 BHN, weighs 247 grains, 1.04" long, .3605" in diameter and seats about .49" into the case (since the COL is 2.46"). Can you tell me from these parameters what my pressure is in terms of PSI? Does your software output pressure in terms of PSI or CUP?

I've never really got an accurate groove diameter near the chamber of my 336 but it looks like I'm getting an honest .3595" at the muzzle.

MJ

[Ranch Dog]

MJ... Your above post is what what used to generate the charts in post #7. The Load From A Disk output is in CUP.

[Marlin Junky]

Ranch Dog,

I averaged 1955 to 1960 fps (depending on whether I used canistered or surplus) with 38 grains of 2520 and SAECO 352 (247 grains) last Tuesday with my 24" 336A. It would have been interesting to have your pressure equipment hooked up to my 336; however, my visual inspection revealed less strain on the cases than I imagined. The brass was twice fired and FL sized to just kiss the shoulders before loading. Not a single case head measured over .4565" out of 40 rounds fired with 38 grains of 2520 and the stats were equally encouraging. The canistered version produced a std. dev. of 6.8 fps and the surplus version a std. dev. of 10.7 fps, each for 18 rounds. I usually load/fire 20 round strings through the chronograph when testing loads and use the first two as foulers.

Anyway, in this case it looks like the computer model didn't quite live up to reality.

Regards,
MJ

[lar45]

I have Quickload and really like it. The $150 price tag kept me away for awhile, but I'm still glad I spent it. I first bought the Calculoader program from AEM and it would give you a list of suggested powders. Not let you pick what powder you wanted even if it was too fast or slow. It's been sitting here unused and gathering dust. I think I'll all the disks and stuff and put it up on ebay.
Quickload is supposed to do thermodynamic equations on what's happening inside the gun with all the variables taken into consideration. It has been very close on most things I've done with it. It's not 100% perfect, but it's a very handy tool. I think they would make more money if they lowered the price some and sold 5 times as many copies.

[lar45]

I punched everything I could find on your post into Quickload. What is your case capacity in gns H2O? Quickload says 51gns.
35 Rem, 24" bbl .3595" bore, Saeco 352 247gns 1.04" long sized .3605"
AA 2520 38gns
Quickload started with a bore diameter of .357" and gave 2050fps @ 34,907 psi

I changed the bore to .3595" and got 2023fps @ 33.074psi. 101% load density.
With that same bore diameter I upped the powder charge.
39gns 2086fps @ 36,604 psi, 104%
40gns 2158fps @ 40,529psi, 106%

I put in the C358-180RF with the same COAL
38gns 1859fps @ 16ksi
48gns 2486fps @ 34.8ksi , 105%

Not load data, just numbers on a screen and should be checked against a real load book to see if it is similar.
The first loads showed about 60-70fps higher than actual chrony readings, so maybe just subtract 60-70fps from the quickload output.

[Marlin Junky]

lar45,

I'm getting 49 grains of water but when I fill the Winchester case it's not brimming over the top of the mouth. With a COL of 2.46", the 247 grain SAECO boolit is not compressing the 38 grain charge at all, even when the charge is dropped from an RCBS powder measure. I may try 38.5 and 39.0 grains the next time just to see if I get more case expansion. Like I said elsewhere, case head diameter with the 38.0 grain charge of 2520 in FL sized cases did not exceed .4565".

BTW, I averaged 2006 fps with 38 grains of DP-74 and the 247 grain SAECO boolit from my 24" barrel and I think a new .35 XLR with the proper throat is good for another 200 fps with this boolit (although I won't try to take my old guns to this point).

MJ

[Ranch Dog]

Anyway, in this case it looks like the computer model didn't quite live up to reality.

It sounds like the load is working for you... remember that the charts at the top of this tread are AA2230 not AA2520 so it is hard to say if the product from the software is reality or not until it is shot. That is one of the draw backs to Load From A Disk, it is going to recommend from 6 to 12 powders that meet the softwares criteria and the one on your shelf might not be one of them. Really, it's not and different, closer, nearer than any reloading manual I've used.

[Ranch Dog]

...I think a new .35 XLR with the proper throat is good for another 200 fps with this boolit (although I won't try to take my old guns to this point).

I do hope they do a little better with the throat on this rifle!

[Marlin Junky]

Well, if Marlin does use a dopey reamer, what would be involved in making a precise throat reamer to correct the problem.

MJ

[lar45]

Well, if Marlin does use a dopey reamer, what would be involved in making a precise throat reamer to correct the problem.

MJ

Pacific Tool and Gauge makes a uni-throater reamer that is adjustable for what you want.
http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/throating_reamers.asp

[timbuck]

Can't answer your question sorry but here is FREE software that WORKS!!!!

http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3

This is the link for the updated version.
http://huntingnut.com/index.php?name=PointBlank