Does air cooling or water dropping effect bullet size?

[Ziptar]

I am going to test this but, I figured I'd ask as well.

When casting soft / range lead has anyone noticed or tested to to see if the as dropped bullet sizes varied from the same mold and same pot of lead between air cooling or water dropping?

[btroj]

Be sure to test right after casting and again at maybe 1,2, and 3 weeks. I would imagine the water dropped will show size change faster, the air called slower. I imagine they will end up the same size. I am interested to see what you find out.

[geargnasher]

RobS and I did some tests with WDWW and ACWW to check relative hardness and size, I think .357shooter did some tests too with colored graphs, it's in a thread somewhere from the past year I think. Results were varied, I think exact alloy composition, or rather the composition of the trace elements affected things more than temperatures did.

As for softer lead, I doubt you would be able to measure any difference in growth at all, whether air-cooled or water-quenched.

Gear

[btroj]

Gear- do you think As makes any difference? I know if helps with hardness from water dropping but wonder if it has any effect on final size.

[243winxb]

Does air cooling or water dropping effect bullet size?
No. And the oven heat treated lead/ 6% antimony ones i have aging in the basement are not growing.

[Ziptar]

Well,
Not exactly scientific but, I tried this out today. I cast a bunch of bullets with a Lee 452-255-RF and a Mihec 270-SAA.

I tried to keep everything consistent by running a pot for each mold and by alternating dropping them on a towel to air cool then on the next, dropping them in a 5 gallon pail of water.

Afterward I grabbed 5 random bullets of each type from the air cooled piles and 5 from the water bucket

I measured them all with a micrometer and they were exactly the same or in a few cases difference in amounts varied so small as not be of any consequence.

[243winxb]

Ziptar, good test. The water dropped boolits should be harder than the air cooled in a few days, reaching there full hardness in about 3 weeks. The alloy has to have about 2% antimony for water drop harding. Oven heat treating/water drop gives better results. Your next test is to see what method is the most accurate & leads less.

[williamwaco]

Ziptar, good test. The water dropped boolits should be harder than the air cooled in a few days, reaching there full hardness in about 3 weeks. The alloy has to have about 2% antimony for water drop harding. Oven heat treating/water drop gives better results. Your next test is to see what method is the most accurate & leads less.

I started a test on this abut a year ago. The hardness did vary over time. After a couple of weeks, what I found was that the change was almost random. Some of the bullets got a little harder, some got a lot harder. In some, the BNH varied 3 or 4 grades on the same bullet at the same time. eg 14 on one side and 18 on the other side.

[runfiverun]

mold temp through a run will affect size more than how you cool the boolit.

[243winxb]

I started a test on this abut a year ago. The hardness did vary over time. After a couple of weeks, what I found was that the change was almost random. Some of the bullets got a little harder, some got a lot harder. In some, the BNH varied 3 or 4 grades on the same bullet at the same time. eg 14 on one side and 18 on the other side. Oven heat treating/water droping will give different results when compared to water dropping from a mould. The amount of tin in the alloy may have a softing effect, over time, on boolits. Different alloys may give different results? Glad to see testing being done. I am staying with the air cooled process & adding linotype if needed. :smile:

[41 mag fan]

Oven heat treating/water droping will give different results when compared to water dropping from a mould. The amount of tin in the alloy may have a softing effect, over time, on boolits. Different alloys may give different results? Glad to see testing being done. I am staying with the air cooled process & adding linotype if needed. :smile:

Very interesting thread.

243, just out of curiosity, why do you prefer air cooled?

[williamwaco]

Oven heat treating/water droping will give different results when compared to water dropping from a mould. The amount of tin in the alloy may have a softing effect, over time, on boolits. Different alloys may give different results? Glad to see testing being done. I am staying with the air cooled process & adding linotype if needed. :smile:


Ditto on that.

All this hype about water cooled and heat treatment is just that - Hype. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should or that it adds any value to the product. ( Some people are more interested in the process of loading than the process of shooting. - I am a shooter.)

I have been using straight air cooled wheelweights for decades. BNH 14-15. There is no use at all for anything harder than that. ( Unless maybe for elephant hunting. )

My all-time favorite Texas brush country hunting load is the Lyman 311041 hollow point ( 150gr ) in the .30-30 over a hefty load of 3031 or 4198 at 2100 fps. It produces 3" groups at 100 yards with from my Marlin with a receiver sight.

Oh-by-the-way - The .44 Mag was originally developed using an alloy that measures BNH 11.

[41 mag fan]

Ditto on that.

All this hype about water cooled and heat treatment is just that - Hype. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should or that it adds any value to the product. ( Some people are more interested in the process of loading than the process of shooting. - I am a shooter.)

I have been using straight air cooled wheelweights for decades. BNH 14-15. There is no use at all for anything harder than that. ( Unless maybe for elephant hunting. )

My all-time favorite Texas brush country hunting load is the Lyman 311041 hollow point ( 150gr ) in the .30-30 over a hefty load of 3031 or 4198 at 2100 fps. It produces 3" groups at 100 yards with from my Marlin with a receiver sight.

Oh-by-the-way - The .44 Mag was originally developed using an alloy that measures BNH 11.

Interesting what you posted here.
I've been casting for my 500, from a Lee and Miha mold I bought. Waiting on my NOE's. I've been water cooling them. Lees a GC and the Miha is not. I've only been casting about 50 at a time, then the next day, trying loads. I've been using Hardcast from Roto metals.
Will that make a difference then, loading them up the next day or should I wait a few days or a week before loading?

[btroj]

I water drop everything. Not for hardness but to prevent having a pile of hot bullets next to me.
Thisisone of those things that isn't alway lack and white. Some don't do it to avoid water near the pot. Some want harder bullets. Some just do it "because".

I prefer not to read too much I to things like water dropping. You can assume Ypu know why but Ypu could very well be wrong.

[runfiverun]

air cooled takes about 7 days to level off near it's max hardness.
a couple of bhn one way or the other really won't make much of a difference, but if you are load testing i'd get ahead on the casting a bit more.

[drklynoon]

I ran a test using my .45 some time ago. This was a practical test meaning I did not use hardness testers or anything I looked for results. I was shooting 6.2 grains of trailboss and was aircooliing after about 50 rounds she was leaded enough to effect accuracy. I then waterdropped and let sit for two weeks same load same lube and same sizing die and no more leading. This may not be scientific enough to draw conclusions about but it does show that it makes a difference.

[243winxb]

243, just out of curiosity, why do you prefer air cooled? Less work, bullets are loadable the next day. 2% antimony heat treated can take up to 3 weeks to fully harder. The higher the antimony content the faster the bullets reach full hardness. 6% antimony takes about 30 minutes to fully harden. If you heat treat, then size, you have softened the bullets surface. I tested with 45 acp & 44 mag. The barrels looked bad, but accuracy was fine. Different alloy = Different results?
Lyman - Heat Treatment of Cast Bullets to Harden Them


Quote:
Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

Many more casting tips at Lyman website. Boolits were heat treated in this photo. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_IMG_3306B.jpg (http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/?action=view&current=IMG_3306B.jpg) Photo of the 45 acp barrel, 200gr BB with 5.0gr of 700X. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_IMG_4494.jpg (http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/?action=view&current=IMG_4494.jpg) Click photo for larger view.

[Racer X]

[QUOTE=Ziptar;1439931]Well,
Not exactly scientific but, I tried this out today. I cast a bunch of bullets with a Lee 452-255-RF and a Mihec 270-SAA.
QUOTE]

What size Mihec 270-SAA mould did you order -- the .452 or .454 diameter?

Also, what is your 'as-cast' diameter? I recently ordered the .454 diameter and have not had a chance to cast any yet.

[Ziptar]

[QUOTE=Ziptar;1439931]Well,
Not exactly scientific but, I tried this out today. I cast a bunch of bullets with a Lee 452-255-RF and a Mihec 270-SAA.
QUOTE]

What size Mihec 270-SAA mould did you order -- the .452 or .454 diameter?

Also, what is your 'as-cast' diameter? I recently ordered the .454 diameter and have not had a chance to cast any yet.


I ordered the .452, and they drop at a hair over.453.