Who uses what alloy for deer?

[stubert]

I am going to start casting for a 44 mag. I want fullpower loads. I have a 250 gr. gas checked keith mold from Lyman. I have a supply of ww ingots and a supply of #2 alloy ingots. velocity will be approx. 1300. Who's got some experiance with 44 on deer? Thanks in advance. Stubert

[Lloyd Smale]

your #2 will work fine for high velocity 44 mag loads and if your barrel is a good one your ww alloy will work fine too.

[waksupi]

I've killed maybe a half dozen deer, and a few antelope with .44 Mag pistols. All were with stout loads, air cooled wheel weights. I believe most were with the old Kieth loading, ss gr. 2400, behind a 240 gr. SWC.

[44man]

Air cooled WW's will work fine with that boolit. If you go to a larger meplat, water cooled will work. A WFN will work even harder. It all depends on the boolit and what size meplat it has. The smaller the nose is, the more you want it to upset.
The .44 is just great on deer. All you want to do is balance expansion with penetration. You want both but a large meplat needs no expansion to work.

[Dale53]

I've killed a half dozen deer with a .44 magnum. All but the last were killed with a Lyman Keith (429421) out of WW/Linotype 5/1 or 8/1. I used the linotype mostly for the tin content to improve casting. Both alloys worked just fine. If I had a gas check bullet, I would just use WW's with 2% tin for castibility. The Keith bullet is really all you need for deer. However, Frank Siefer and I designed the Lee C430-310 RF (GC) mould for heavy game and I killed the first head of big game with this bullet. It turned out to be a decent 10 point buck (not a world beater by any means but a nice, representative example). I consider this a premier quality bullet. It is exceptionally accurate (at least to a hundred yards as I have not shot it at longer ranges) and with the large meplat does a fine job on game.

It DOES recoil noticeably greater than the 250 Keith but in a hunting situation that's really not much relevant (if you do your job you only shoot it once[smilie=1:). Air cooled Wheel Weights with 2% tin works just fine with the gas check.

YMMV

Dale53

[44man]

I have shot the Lee boolit waaaay, waaaay farther then 100 yd's and it stays stable and accurate. One of my favorite boolits.

[Dale53]

44man;
Glad to have that information. I only "claim" what I have done, and since I haven't shot this design any further than 100 yards, I couldn't really say. I do know that it sure does well up to 100 and really happy that I can now say that it does well at true long range.

I have shot the Keith at 200 yards and know that it is a good long range design, but not "our" bullet.:-D

Dale53

[Shuz]

stubert--I've killed perhaps a dozen,give or take a deer, with lead boolits outta the .44 mag. over the past 40 years. During that time, I've used about every alloy immaginable. I've never lost a deer, and I've never recovered a spent boolit! All passed on thru regardless of the distance. Last fall I even used a composite 429421 of my own mfr. and it passed on thru at about 50 yds. I've come to the grand conclusion, based on my experiences, it just doesn't matter what alloy is used. --Shuz

[44man]

Thats why I like cast boolits. The deer I have shot with the 240 XTP never were penetrated even with rib shots. Yeah, they died but I was always worried about a bone hit or a quartering shot. Long live the cast boolit!

[JudgeBAC]

Dale 53 said "I would just use WW's with 2% tin for castibility" Do you use pure tin to get the 2%? What mixture of what do you use to achieve this ratio?

[fatnhappy]

stubert--I've killed perhaps a dozen,give or take a deer, with lead boolits outta the .44 mag. over the past 40 years. During that time, I've used about every alloy immaginable. I've never lost a deer, and I've never recovered a spent boolit! All passed on thru regardless of the distance. Last fall I even used a composite 429421 of my own mfr. and it passed on thru at about 50 yds. I've come to the grand conclusion, based on my experiences, it just doesn't matter what alloy is used. --Shuz


Exactly my feeling. It isn't like they're wearing kevlar. FWIW, I believe there are only 2 reasons to tinker with your alloy for deer hunting with a .44, leading or castibility.

[abaslon]

HI,
Reading this thread and trying to get a better feel of things with WW castings.
I'm shooting a 454 and trying out the WW's as well. SO FAR, the alloy married up with the Lyman 250 gr .452 flat nose mold is some pretty hard stuff and works pretty darn well when I only load up to a heavy 45 Colt, about 1250 fps, but things tend to go a little off center when I push the same casting up to 1850fps with the Casull load behind it.

I was shooting the LaserCast silver alloy 320gr slugs with awesome accuracy, but they be special and store bought stuff. . . SO the question comes down to is the WW alloy hard enough to deal with these "Extra" loads, or is the boolet's size, the weight (250gr instead of 320gr) the cause for all the excitement of not knowing exactly where the next round is going to land.

Just for your information, the boolets I produce with WW alloy, I also size and lube with a hot molly compound through my RCBS sizer, so if anything, the 250 gr boolets are a bit more slipery than the store boughten ones. And they are indeed the same size, so it's not due to wobbling around in my barrel as it heads out for the kill. Oh yea, nether one have GasChecks installed. . . Both are raw alloy on the base.

I've fired my WW boolets into sand and then dug them out. I can see there is 100% rifling, because one can see the alloy pulling just a wee bit off the back of the boolet where the rifling has passed, and all but no markings along the grooves. Seeing this confirms my sizing to be proper for my barrel. And the slug was not malformed by striking the sand other then roughing the surface. However, these were of the 45 colt variety with the 1200fps velocity.

Even so, I shouldn't be seeing such the wide throw of accuracy that I'm getting when I step it up to the heaver load. . . All ideas welcome.

[44man]

For a lot of my boolits I mix 20# of WW's, 6.4 oz of tin and 9.6 oz of antimony. Boolits are hard but tough and I have had them to 1800 fps without a problem. Most of my deer have been killed with this mix.
I DO have a .44 boolit that I would not use this mix with for hunting nor would I even think of hunting with it. I had it made for long range target and the nose is pointy. Come to think of it, it is not very accurate either and only shoots good from my Marlin, makes a great plinker.

[Char-Gar]

Unless you use a soft alloy and a hollow point bullet, you are not going to get any significant expansion from that bullet and sixgun combo regardless of what alloy you use. So, just use what works best accuracy wise in your pistol. Lyman No. 2 alloy is just as good as any and better than many for your purpose.

[Bass Ackward]

I am going to start casting for a 44 mag. I want fullpower loads. I have a 250 gr. gas checked keith mold from Lyman. I have a supply of ww ingots and a supply of #2 alloy ingots. velocity will be approx. 1300. Who's got some experiance with 44 on deer? Thanks in advance. Stubert


Stubert,

What alloy works best on deer is what alloy works best in your handgun. Then after you determine that, if it turns out you need ACWW or harder, you need to match a bullet design to it with a wide enough meplat to cover the fact that you won't expand it at handgun velocities.

We have guys here that shoot 1300 fps with pure lead and a GC. One even does it with LLA. But that soft, you are going to have to operate at the slow end of the burn rate chart to do it. And still you will only be able to do it if everything is right with your gun. I know I can't do it with anything I currently own. But I can get 1300 fps out of 20-1 with several powders fairly easy. And your bullet design must carry a fair amount of lube if you want to shoot soft too. especially in warm barrels or weather. As you go harder, your bullet will be tougher and give you wider powder and lube choices and warmer temperature ranges from which to find options for lube and accuracy.

Catch the pattern?

[45 2.1]

Stubert,

What alloy works best on deer is what alloy works best in your handgun. Then after you determine that, if it turns out you need ACWW or harder, you need to match a bullet design to it with a wide enough meplat to cover the fact that you won't expand it at handgun velocities.

We have guys here that shoot 1300 fps with pure lead and a GC. One even does it with LLA. But that soft, you are going to have to operate at the slow end of the burn rate chart to do it. And still you will only be able to do it if everything is right with your gun. I know I can't do it with anything I currently own. But I can get 1300 fps out of 20-1 with several powders fairly easy. And your bullet design must carry a fair amount of lube if you want to shoot soft too. especially in warm barrels or weather. As you go harder, your bullet will be tougher and give you wider powder and lube choices and warmer temperature ranges from which to find options for lube and accuracy.

Catch the pattern?

You can get expansion at handgun velocities. I do it with 750 fps 44 Specials and have killed deer easily with them. That is one of the reasons you see big lube grooves on my designs. Keep trying, you'll get it soon enough.

[Bass Ackward]

You can get expansion at handgun velocities. I do it with 750 fps 44 Specials and have killed deer easily with them. That is one of the reasons you see big lube grooves on my designs. Keep trying, you'll get it soon enough.


Bob,

I think you mis-read the post. ACWW at 750 fps?

Sure you can expansion, but I would say that at ACWW hardness and up, everything has to be right and conditions come into play that you need to understand, max range limitations and shot angles and or the use of special techniques. All that go beyond the scope of his question.

At that point, safer to err on a wider meplat design.

[45 2.1]

Bob,

I think you mis-read the post. ACWW at 750 fps?

Sure you can expansion, but I would say that at ACWW hardness and up, everything has to be right and conditions come into play that you need to understand, max range limitations and shot angles and or the use of special techniques. All that go beyond the scope of his question.

At that point, safer to err on a wider meplat design.

No, I didn't. Reread your post. I also didn't say WW.

[Bass Ackward]

No, I didn't. Reread your post. I also didn't say WW.

Bob,

Help me out fella.

<<Then after you determine that, if it turns out you need "ACWW or harder", you need to match a bullet design to it with a wide enough meplat to cover the fact that you won't expand it (ACWW or harder) at handgun velocities. >>

That says, you can expand up to ACWW hardness and if you can't expand you need a larger meplat. What am I missing?

[stubert]

I never even thought of using Lee. I have had good results with laser cast 300 grains. Do you know which top punch I would need in a lyman 450 sizer? If I tried the 430-310? thanks, Stubert

[Dale53]

JudgeBAC;
I've answered this question directly to Judge, but for the "lurkers" I get a WW plus 2% tin alloy by adding 2% pure tin to how ever many pounds of WW I want to use. I typically pretty much fill the pot with smelted WW's (after weighing them on my kitchen scale (dedicated to casting). After they are melted, I simply "melt off" the amount of tin called for (merely stick a tin bar into the melted metal and melt off the needed amount - checking the remainder of the bar on a postal scale next to my casting pot). I also have an inexpensive pocket calculator next to my lead pot for doing calculations. It really speeds up things and I am less apt to make an error.

If you are trying the Lee C430-310 mould, use a flat "top punch". I use a flat "top punch for many of my flat nosed bullets. One punch will work very well with many different caliber flat nosed bullets.

Dale53

[leftiye]

Abaslon, Yes, you probably should be seing accuracy go to he!! when you step up your loads from 1200 fps (hot for a .45 L.C.!) to 1800 fps. I hope that you realize that 1800 is probably as fast as anything's ever got to out of a revolter (or, at least- FAST ENOUGH- I'm sure someone's gone faster). Everything has to be perfect before a lead bullet will go that fast out of anything, let alone a revolter, and still shoot straight.

You should take your 1200 fps loads and work up the charges with everything else staying the same, and see where the accuracy actually fails. It might be way below 1800 fps. Then you can adjust almost everything - metal hardness, powder used, lube, even primer, and case and crimp, not to mention bullet design, and size; and you might get to 1800 fps. and still achieve good accuracy.

In my own defence (before everyone goes " I shoot 3000 fps out of an old Colt SA, and get 1" groups at 300 yds), I think it is quite attainable to get a good load that shoots pretty fast -my .454 with 300 gr XTPs at 1600 fps is the most accurate revolter I've ever shot- But to equal that with a lead boolit, you might have to do your home work and mind your Ps and Qs.

[lovedogs]

Last year was the first year I tried cast on deer and it was for reasons like mentioned by 44man. I've had such varied results with j-bullets that I was getting worried about their performance. They always killed but most of the time they failed to penetrate well from my .44's. So last fall I shot a RNFPGC (Saeco #431) that's supposed to be a 250 gr. With my #2 alloy it drops out at about 243 gr. I shot a big whitetail doe with a Super 14 Contender that pushed them out at 1600 FPS. The meplat on that bullet measures .265 in. I doubt it expanded at all but I can't say for sure because the bullet wasn't recovered. The shot was taken at 30 yds. and entered at the last rib and angled forward to take the top off her heart and exit the off-side shoulder. She acted much like she'd have done with a j-bullet and ran off 60 yds. and piled up. As far as killing power I couldn't tell any difference but I really liked the penetration. I'd bet if I'd done that same shot with a j-bullet it wouldn't have made the trip. I feel much more confident using the cast bullet.

[Ranch Dog]

I've been using my Lee special order TLC432-285-RF in my Marlin 336-44. I use the boolit as cast for my 444, 1 to 1 Linotype/WW and water quenched. The boolits are hard and weigh in at 265-grains with this alloy but I have dropped many deer and hogs pronto. 21.3-grains of H110 give me 1620 FPS and great accuracy. I like using this rifle and boolit for hogs raiding my food plots at night and it drops them hard and they never make it out of the fields.

A fellow that bought one of these molds in the original group buy uses the same alloy and conditioning in his Marlin 1894PG. He sent me his load sheets and 22.4-grains of H110 is giving him 1815 FPS from that short barreled rifle.

[BABore]

Bob,

Help me out fella.

<<Then after you determine that, if it turns out you need "ACWW or harder", you need to match a bullet design to it with a wide enough meplat to cover the fact that you won't expand it (ACWW or harder) at handgun velocities. >>

That says, you can expand up to ACWW hardness and if you can't expand you need a larger meplat. What am I missing?

Why WW's cut with pure lead of course.

In its AC state, 50/50 WW-Pb, is only slightly softer than ACWW's. I get about 9-10 Bhn. It mushrooms nicely and holds its form instead of fragmenting. If you need it harder, heat treat or WD it. It comes out around 18-22 Bhn. Driven at a decent velocity it will still mushroom. WDWW's only rivet up slightly then fragment off any expansion.

Water down the antimony to reduce brittleness, only keeping enough to harden if deem necessary. Never found a real need for any tin additions. Seems to cause more casting (ladle) problems than it solves.

Deer are small critters for cast bullets. Very easy to penetrate broadside. Might just as well use expansion for a quick kill. If you just got to have end to end penetration, still design your alloy for expansion, just use a heavier bullet.

[k8bor]

I used one of his 265 grainers in .44 out of a Super Blackhawk hunter last November on a whitetail. Was only shooting 1,000 maybe 1,100 fps with open sights at about 40 yards. The 265's were cast out of pure ww and air cooled. That deer didn't know the difference between that shot and a .458 mag. Fell over like someone hit it with a sledge hammer, and outside of a quiver or two, never even moved. When something hits with that kind of authority moving slow like that, I really don't see any reason to push for a lot of uncomfortable speed. I also could give a hoot whether or not it expanded or not either. .44 calibe holes don't leave a lot to be desired.
Dave

[44man]

Thats the very reason I never care how fast my boolits are. Some of my guns shoot faster then others but what I do is look for the most accurate load for each gun and to heck with how fast it shoots. Some calibers and guns just need the higher velocity to be accurate.

[Ranch Dog]

Ooops... I thought Stubert was talking 44 boolits in rifles...