Paper Patching and Low Velocities

[walkswithsticks]

I have been reading the Paper Patch threads for some time now and am quite intriged by it all. I even ordered Mr. Matthews book, The Paper Jacket, yesterday.

My initial project would be with a Uberti High Wall chambered in 38/55 with a 373/379 barrel with an advertised 1:18 twist. I have been shooting a 250 gr boolit measuring .935 +/- from a Lee mold with good results with either a pinch of Red Dot or a case full of Trail Boss. My beat up old shoulder can tolerate both loads.

I do have a concern, though. The threads seem to concentrate on how fast they can run the booliit and with all that goes along with it. I occasionally catch something hinting that Paper Patching may not go hand in hand with low velocities.

I would like to keep the speed down to about 1000 to 1200 fps. As I have no desire to start a project that is a proven loser, could I get some input from some experienced patchers?

Thanks,
BIll

[grullaguy]

My limited experience has shown that low velocity paper patched bullets are easier to get to perform than the higher velocity. I have heard the argument why bother with paper if you can get the same performance with grease groove bullets?
I have grown to enjoy patching bullets and patch all my low velocity stuff as well as the fast stuff. Don't have any bullet lube or gas checks in my house, though I will probably give them a try some day.
I only patch for .303 British at this time.

[303Guy]

Well, I'd say the patch must either come off at the muzzle in the form of uniform pieces or confetti or it should stay on intact all the way to the target. At your velocities I'd thing keeping it on is possible. It is for me anyway but then my gun doesn't have sharp rifling. Sharp rifling might make shredding your patches at those velocities quite do-able. Try a weaker paper like lined notepad paper and see what happens. Soft alloy should help with the shredding. (You won't get confetti). There's a great deal of fun in patching boolits and firing them. With your single shot you will not need to size the necks. You might try my patching technique with a folded or rolled over tail skirt with a large exposed base where the muzzle blast can blow off the patch.

[6.5 mike]

While pp'ing is aimed at speed using it for a low veloicty load is very "doable". I shoot my 45-70 sharps with smokeless & a pp'ed lee 405 gr at bout 1250 fps, Bp speed. I use the same load in another scoped 45-70 for hunting.

Paper patching allows you to do whatever you want with your rifle, be it pick up the speed to factory specs or tone it down to suit you, or an old friend. As grullaguy pointed out I also enjoy the whole aspect of it. I still cut my patched one at a time with shears, cave man style.

303 Guy is right about lined notebook paper. It seems to come apart as confetti easier then some of the others I have tried. It does tear a little easier when wet.

Do a search "38-55 loads", it will give you alot of reading material,lol. Also search for Padawg Shooter, great info on the hands on basics of paper patching.

Your caliber choice is one of the best for pp'ing. I have a new C Sharps 1875 at home waiting for the same thing using the same boolit. :Fire:

[ovendoctor]

I do have a concern, though. The threads seem to concentrate on how fast they can run the booliit and with all that goes along with it. I occasionally catch something hinting that Paper Patching may not go hand in hand with low velocities.

walkswithsticks

nutten wrong with slow and paper patching ;-)

ya don't have to run it at moc stupid [but somtimes its fun wen ya do:D]

and yes I am working on a load in 45 colt for my S&W 25

due to a health issue I cant shoot any thing over my 32/40 because of recoil

yup it looks like hunting season is gonna be a wash out

Doc.

[geargnasher]

+1 on using weaker paper for low velocity, I've seen what I think is a trend with tough papers like 100% cotton vellum causing accuracy issues if the pressure and muzzle velocity isn't enough to instantly shred at the muzzle. Kind of like alloy and lubes, it seems that different strengths are needed for different "duty" levels.

Gear

[longbow]

I am a little torn (pun intended) when it comes to thinking about patch shredding, sharp rifling and all those other things.

The reason I say that is that I got some very good results with my Marlin 1894 .44 mag with microgroove rifling and let me tell you, there isn't much rifling to cut, tear, shear, shred or do much of anything to a paper patch yet they turned to confetti at the muzzle.

Also, the boolit casts at 0.421" diameter and is patched up to 0.432"+ diameter so very much undersize by typical smokeless PP boolit practice. No way the rifling is cutting through that much paper, yet it tears into little pieces.

I didn't chronograph loads but they were 300 gr. boolits over 21 grs. H110 so mid teens most likely.

My thoughts are that gas pressure from behind and air flow from the nose remove the patch if it isn't stuck to the boolit with lube or glue.

Not going to argue that people find strips apparently cut by rifling, just that it doesn't seem to need to happen that way.

Also, many of the old BP guns were not exactly speed demons in the velocity department and recommended patch material was bank note paper or 100% cotton or linen paper which can be very strong.

So, if low velocity works with BP and strong paper it should with smokeless powder too.

Just my thoughts.

Longbow

[6.5 mike]

Longbow pretty much nailed it on lower speed loads, Gear also did with the choice of paper.
While most of the older rounds are not "built for speed", the key IS the paper coming off at the muzzle as confetti or strips, does not matter which as long as it leaves the boolit cleanly on exit.
I think one of the other key factors is barrel fit with your patch & boolit, or fit to the throat if it's needs to be done that way.

[geargnasher]

I am a little torn (pun intended) when it comes to thinking about patch shredding, sharp rifling and all those other things.

The reason I say that is that I got some very good results with my Marlin 1894 .44 mag with microgroove rifling and let me tell you, there isn't much rifling to cut, tear, shear, shred or do much of anything to a paper patch yet they turned to confetti at the muzzle.

Also, the boolit casts at 0.421" diameter and is patched up to 0.432"+ diameter so very much undersize by typical smokeless PP boolit practice. No way the rifling is cutting through that much paper, yet it tears into little pieces.

I didn't chronograph loads but they were 300 gr. boolits over 21 grs. H110 so mid teens most likely.

My thoughts are that gas pressure from behind and air flow from the nose remove the patch if it isn't stuck to the boolit with lube or glue. I think so too.

Not going to argue that people find strips apparently cut by rifling, just that it doesn't seem to need to happen that way. I think it's a "depends" especially when talking 3K fps and much lighter, much more easily upset boolits.

Also, many of the old BP guns were not exactly speed demons in the velocity department and recommended patch material was bank note paper or 100% cotton or linen paper which can be very strong. True, but an important difference to note here: They were using smooth-sided soft boolits and dry patches much of the time. It's a lot more difficult to shuck a dried wet-patch that was rolled onto a GG boolit, so some rifling slicing might be helpul in some instances.

So, if low velocity works with BP and strong paper it should with smokeless powder too. Not so much. I use 100% cotton vellum on only one application, and it's quite high-velocity and fast twist. Other, weaker papers have failed in that application. But the vellum doesn't provide the accuracy with my big-bore stuff that weaker bond papers do. I'm sure there are exceptions even to these generalities, but I'm throwing my experiences out there.

Just my thoughts.

Longbow

I think that consistent and early patch jettison is helpful to good accuracy with PPCB, but different qualities of paper are needed to keep the balance of survival in the bore and instant disintegration at the muzzle at different velocities/calibers/powder types.

Gear

[longbow]

Yes, there are a few considerations for sure.

I think (don't know for sure) that most old timey PP boolits were wrapped wet as pretty much all the references I have found indicate wrapping wet. Gear says dry but so far that's not what I have found. Not sure who's right there... or maybe both?

Having said that, for sure many people are dry wrapping now and may have before too with good results.

I have tried dry wrapping but found the paper tended to slip when run through the sizer. Wet wrapping seems to result in the paper bonding somewhat and no slipping in the sizer. I quit trying to dry wrap for that reason. I figured it it slips in the sizer it could slip in the throat/bore.

Then we get the patch to bore, patch to groove and two diameter boolits, all of which were used long ago as well as today though it seems for BP it is most common to patch to bore.

I haven't figured that one out yet since I understand that patch to bore is done to accommodate fouling (avoid tearing the patch at chambering) but most target shooters wipe between shots anyway... so little to no fouling. Also a two diameter boolit with patch to bore nose bore rider and patch to groove driving body gives the same benefit with no required bump up. And yes, some of the original BP cartridges used two diameter boolits of that form.

With smokeless the typical practice is bore size + boolit patched to groove or a little better.

Certainly there will be different conditions between patch to bore BP loads with bumping up and patch to groove SP (or BP) loads where there is no bump up.

It is possible the "bank note paper" was preferred for patch to bore where bump up stretched the paper and more strength was required. I certainly don't know.

Gear is right about PP GG boolits, as regardless of whether rifling cuts the paper or not, with GG's the paper is not even going to be heavily compressed in the grooves so will retain full or near full strength so will have to tear at the groove bands to be discarded.

The only grooved PP moulds I have seen are the Lyman NRA moulds #301618(160gr.) and #301620(196-204gr). These moulds do have grooves but very shallow grooves. Could Lyman have done this due to lack of bump up with patch to groove SP boolits so the patch wouldn't slip?

All the references I have seen to old PP boolits was swaged or cast smooth sided boolits (not even knurled). I agree that with smooth sided boolits the paper will be evenly compressed and cut (if that is happening) by rifling full length so should discard easier than patched from GG boolits.

I have more questions than answers and am just kinda thinking out loud here (and kind of rambling).

Longbow

[ovendoctor]

I think (don't know for sure) that most old timey PP boolits were wrapped wet as pretty much all the references I have found indicate wrapping wet


hence the term ''spit patch'' LOL

that's how I roll mine

a gob of spit on the loading bench
set the pre cut paper in it ,,let it soak up
slide it to the edge of bench and roll it on
wrap tail and let dry

Doc.

[6.5 mike]

longbow, I have two books written by men who took part in the hunting, both point out the money bond paper was the best to use in a barrel that had become badly fouled as I'm sure theirs did. It would hold up the best for prolonged shooting. This was with a couple different calibers they used.
One also states using stretched & thinned prohorn hides to patch with. Looks like they used whatever it took to get the job done.
As far as why lyman put the shallow grooves on those 2 moulds my guess is to help the paper to grip the casting. I pp alot of grease groove boolits & when the paper dries it pulls down into the grooves, it's very noticable with traceing paper. I show about 0.0015 between the drive bands & lube grooves on some of my bigger boolits, it will shrink that much when dry. Tom at accurate moulds shows some of his pp designs with what looks to be a tl small grooves, again to help hold the paper. When I first started pp'ing I would roll my boolits on a old file to knurl them.

[longbow]

6.5 mike:

I have mentioned in other posts that I had good results using a home made push out mould like the old Ideal cylindrical moulds to make a 0.301" cast boolit very much like the Lyman #301620 but smooth sided.

My .308 liked it fine and shot well but my .303 did not like it even when patched with thicker paper to groove diameter. I had made a "knurler" that put annular rings (more like a groover) around the boolits and expanded them about 0.003". This was for a tumble lube like boolit but I decided to try it for PP'ing for the .303. Well, diameter increased to 0.304" and now the .303 shot reasonably well with it.

Was it the increased diameter to bore + or the textured rings gripping paper... or both? I don't know for sure and haven't pursued it as yet but am planning to make a new mould to cast at about 0.304"/0.305" and try that smooth sided. It may answer a question or two (mostly if it works that is).

Yes, I guess the old buffalo hunters would be able to enlighten us some. They must have pushed their gear to the limits and shot until they had to clean. I am betting you are right about the money bond paper being best in that case to resist abrasion from BP fouling.

I am also thinking that with larger diameter boolits like .40/.45 cal and up smooth sided might be just fine where with .30 cal maybe a bit of texture on the boolit surface helps. Like I said, my .44 did just fine with a way undersize boolit and microgroove rifling. Just a gut feel but the paper is a greater part of the smaller boolit diameter and it seems to me that the smaller diameter boolit might tend to "squirt" through the middle. Like I said, just a gut feel.

Lots to learn and more to try!

Doc:

I started the same way! I find that unless I am drinking a golden beverage whilst wrapping that way I get awfully dry though.

I went to a thin glue water mix, soft drink, then straight water. Straight water seemed to work well enough for larger calibers but I find that just a bit of stickum seems to help keep wraps tighter on the .30 cal ~ depending on paper.

I have not done a lot of paper patching lately but I think I have some more things to try. One is that I have bunches of Canadian Tire Money which is printed on some pretty good paper. It is worth a try!

Too bad I am lazy or I might have sorted out a few more things by now.

Longbow

[geargnasher]

Most of the reading I've done shows that military 45/70 was made with damp/wet patched boolits, but the only valid references I've found to the "buffalo rifles" and the professional hunters that loaded their own all show they used dry paper, often plain writing paper, and shoved the boolit into the case to retain the paper once it was tightly wrapped and the base folded. Either way, most of the boolits I've seen from that era were smooth-sided, with one exception. I'm sure much of this varied from person to person and from factory to factory, but just what little I have seen the handloaders seemed to do a lot of dry patching.

Here are a couple of shots of my latest SWAG at a decent .30 caliber patched design, even with the patched bore-ride section the Meade sketch paper has zero trouble getting slit and parting ways with the boolit at 2450 fps.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094ea39a08d9d9c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2489)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094ea4929b42a05.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2491)

Gear

[6.5 mike]

Longbow, your threads on your smooth sided moulds are ones I followed when I got started pp'ing. I still plan on trying to make a mould of my own.
Gear, most of my patching is done with meade paper, just seems to work better for me. From the bator up to the Lyman postell. I'm giving Padawg's size first thing a try with my 30 cals, need to shot more & go from there. I am going to see how this will work with a lee 175 gr 8 m/m sized down in my new 32-40, bout the only mould I have for it right now.
BTW, I though our issue 45-70 where lubed.

[longbow]

Gear:

How is accuracy with that new boolit?

At 2450 FPS I suspect the paper is literally blown off the boolit regardless of whether it wants to stay attached or not.

I have to ask ~ what are the little rings? I have read about paper rings left in the case mouth or chamber but never seen it myself. Are those them? Also, I have never recovered the base of the patch but I see you have several there. Did you use filler or card in those loads? Just wondering if that is why the bases survived.

Longbow

[geargnasher]

Gear:

How is accuracy with that new boolit? The gun is the limiting factor, I tried a couple of things and finally got groups down to the gun's miserable best, about 1.25" at 50 yards. That's as good as it ever shot with anything I've tried.

At 2450 FPS I suspect the paper is literally blown off the boolit regardless of whether it wants to stay attached or not.

I have to ask ~ what are the little rings? I have read about paper rings left in the case mouth or chamber but never seen it myself. Are those them? Indeed they are. You can see them still stuck to the case mouths in the pic, like an extension of the brass. The military brass I was using is too short for the chamber. Also, I have never recovered the base of the patch but I see you have several there. Did you use filler or card in those loads? Just wondering if that is why the bases survived. I used a tuft of Dacron with some loads, compressed BPI Original granular PSP for the ones in the pic. They all survived, but the ones with Dacron were sooty. No card wad at all, just slow powder and air-cooled wheel weights, still green at around 10.5 bhn.

Longbow

There's more on MJ's "challenge" thread, that's where I was posting progress of this boolit and load. Pics of targets etc, only shot 20 today, first 20 PP through this gun.

Gear

[longbow]

Thanks Gear. I'll take a look.

[walkswithsticks]

Great information. Thanks so much.

Hopefully, I can start paper patching soon.

Bill

[303Guy]

OK, so this is not 38/55 but the same principal applies. I'm aiming at a super quiet load for my 303 Brit Pig Gun and to that end I bought some Trail Boss. Well, I filled the case to the base of the neck and stuck a 192gr PPCB on top. The initial results are encouraging to say the least. I do suspect that the load is actually supersonic but who cares - it's a mild load and disintegrates the patch completely and has an almost unfelt recoil. Maybe this is the way for you to go, walkswithsticks. You'll get lower muzzle pressure (my gun's barrel is very short) but with 'weak' paper it might be just the ticket for your recoil sensitivity. It'll be 'quiet' too. Kinda like shooting a 22 LR HV. Over here, we get the stuff in 250g containers because of its bulk and it costs the same as other powders. It fills the case and cannot blow up either us or the gun! What's not to like?

[barrabruce]

Iv'e blasted 20 or so 170 grn Fp Lees 1/2 wrapped with a lick of Alox on the nose and paper.
Accuracy was good @ 1/1/2" at 100 yrds and @4-6 at 200yrds. Not as good as my plain cast thou 3/4-1" at 100yrds.But about as good as they go with Paper patching at the time. Maybe a bit better as they wenr't spinning up as much to wobble of in to the woods as quick.

That was with about 4 grains of bullseye and a tuft of dacron in me thuddy thuddy.

Pretty low velocity. more of a bang than a crack.

The paper came of in bigger strips...meaning long strips and not blown to peices.
That was with a pretty soft alloy.

A waxy grease may prove to be the ticket for a lube thou.
Other powders like unique or 2400 adi 2207 adi 2206h types be worth a try as well for around the 1200-1600 fps mark.

I may get around to try some more one day for target (loose term)accuracy loads and not pretend full bore hunting loads.

That's 30-30 loads ...I don't know how'd they relate to 38/55 or others thou.

Hope it helps

Barra