What constitutes "leading" in a barrel? [Archive]

Char-Gar

10-21-2011, 12:17 PM

We have many posts on this board about leading and how to cure it. But, we have never had a definition of what constitutes leading.

Is non-leading and absolute zero amount of lead in the fired barrel, no matter how many rounds fired, or are we talking about something less?

I really thing this deserves a discussion as lots of new folks wrestle with something and strive toward something that has never been defined or understood. The term seems to be undefined, self-defined or defined in various ways.

How about some clarity, or at least some parameters of the term?

subsonic

10-21-2011, 02:18 PM

I would say leading is any lead buildup that increases somewhat rapidly with each shot and affects accuracy within a "few" shots - where accuracy comes right back as soon as the lead is removed from the bore. If you can't shoot 50rds without it building up enough to affect accuracy and requiring serious cleaning - to me it is leading. If I shoot 50 rds and the bore takes several passes with a chore boy on a brush, it's leading.

Walt

10-21-2011, 04:06 PM

Multigunner

10-21-2011, 04:09 PM

When I first got my .32 hand ejector it had a good deal of leading, and was not very accurate, after a good cleaning using EZOX and bristle brush accuracy improved greatly.
My Iver Johnson was also heavily leaded. Every time I fired a cylinder full the frame latch hinge pin would be bent loosening the frame. I would load up again and turn the pin a half turn to tighten it up before shooting again. Once I got all the lead out the pin no longer bent when shooting.

jhalcott

10-21-2011, 04:14 PM

This should be an interesting thread! IF I can see it ,it is leading! If it affects accuracy it is leading. If I can shoot all day,then only "quick clean the bore" it ain't! Factors causing leading are bullet fit, hardness, velocity and lube suitability for that velocity. I BELIEVE every one gets SOME leading from shooting cast, it only becomes a problem if it affects accuracy/velocity.

Char-Gar

10-21-2011, 04:43 PM

Thus far, it is trending to: There is lead in the barrel, but it doesn't hurt accuracy and can be cleaned out without undo work or special tools.

Please lets stay on task and on subject. I know what causes leading and how to cure it. I want to know when it is a problem and what folks are talking about, when they say, they don't have any problems with leading.

My first impression is that a visual inspection on a dirty gun won't tell much, as there is powder trash, lube trash and some lead wash. Only after a quick cleaning with solvent can any lead be seen.

subsonic

10-21-2011, 04:53 PM

Some tests I do on revolvers....

Push a dry patch through the bore so that it comes about half-way out of the barrel into the cylinder window, then stop and pull back. This will bunch the patch up so that it fits tight. You may have to try different amounts of patch sticking out to find a good "spot" where it will be VERY hard to pull back out, but CAN be pulled back out. I pull it out the muzzle carefully and if there is lead in the gun, the patch will bring some silver slivers out with it. The lead can also be "felt" with the patch this way.

While I'm shooting I may open (or remove) the cylinder, stick my hand in the cylinder window to reflect light, and look down the bore every cylinderful or so. If after each cylinder I'm seeing more and more dull gray fouling - that's an indicatin to me that things aren't working right. Usually after a couple cylinders full if this is happening, groups will open dramatically and the lead will build up much faster.

I also will take my Surefire G2 Nitrolon (strong 30 lumen white light flashlight) and shine it at an angle into the muzzle. If you look down into the lands and grooves you can CLEARLY see lead if it's there.

btroj

10-21-2011, 05:56 PM

I agree that looking into a dirty gun tells you little.

I like to run a dry patch thru the bore. Feel tells me something, especially in the throat. I then hold the barrel up to a strong light and look thru the bore. I usually see lumps of lead in the roles near the throat. On a revolver I look at an angle into the forcing come and lower bore with the muzzle pointed to a strong light. I am again looking for lumps of lead along the lands.

I view visible lead as leading. If I can run brush with chore boy on it and get lead out then I have leading. I can often get this lead out with a dry patch run almost to the end of the barrel then pulled back and forth. If I get lead on this patch then I have leading.

No leading to me means just that- no lead. None. Nada. Period.

Now deciding when leading is a problem is an entirely different story.

Don't know if this is what you are looking for Char-gar but it is my definition of leading.

Char-Gar

10-21-2011, 06:20 PM

Well, I am not looking for anything in particular, just a discussion on what is leading. My concern is what new folks can realistic expect to find in their handgun barrels when they have done everything RIGHT.

I expect to find some lead wash in my handgun barrels. It does not effect accuracy for hundreds of rounds and can be cleaned out with normal routine cleaning. I do not call that leading. That is my understanding.

But when others make the statement, I get no leading in any of my handguns, that throws some new cast bullet shooters for a loop, because they can't seem to achieve what others have, even though they are doing everything right. It is my opinion that it is all in the definition of "leading" and these is no commonly held understanding.

One of the problems with the Internet is often we post, knowing what is in out minds, and folks who read it take something else away from the post.

btroj

10-21-2011, 06:30 PM

Lead was is not leading to me. I am looking for lumps or streaks. A slight silver discoloration is not an issue in my opinion.
More important to me is the fact that not all leading is a problem. I frequently use loads in my 45-70 for hunti that lead slightly. For the few I will use in hunting the leading never gets to a point where it is an issue. If the same leading occurred in my 1911 I would find a different load. That is a high round count application and I am not going to clean ever 25 or so rounds.

I agree that "no leading" is not a clearly defined term. To me no leading means just that- no lumps or streaks coming out on a patch. If I can run a dry patch Donna barrel and it goes smoothl with no hang ups I follow with a wet one. That Is followed by a dry patch. When the bore is held to a light I want to see nothing but clean lands and grooves to say "no leading" occurred.

I agree on Internet or book learning. This is why I feel the best way to learn to load and shoot cast is to find someone in your area who can show you the ropes. The free exchange of info at the range and bench are far more valuable that what can be learned via reading.

Char-Gar

10-21-2011, 06:56 PM

Agreed that three minutes of face to face give and take with an experienced person is worth five pages of an internet thread. The internet is a wonderful place to meet folks who share a mutual interest. It is a good place to share experiences and learn from each other. It break down often, when it comes to problem solving.

I could diagnose most of the issues folks have with sixguns in just a minute or two, if I had the pistol in my hands. They really are pretty simple pieces of machinery with a finite number of things that can go wrong. You can run down your mental checklist until you find the snag. But, the folks who come here don't know what to look for or what it look like when they do see it.

With the internet, we have to chase out tails for a while until we have broken the code. That doesn't bother me particularly, just the nature of this way of doing things.

I learned most of what I know about guns, shooting and loading, way, way before the Internet. I had more experienced folks to lean on, and there was allot of trial and error learning as well. Butt for all of that, I have never damaged a firearm, blown one up, hurt myself or anybody else. Kabooms seem to be all to common these days and am dismayed at this new trend.

357shooter

10-21-2011, 07:34 PM

So it is a bit subjective. For my guns:

Leading example: One bullet in particular is incredibly accurate in my Blackhawk 357. However after 10 rounds there is visible leading at the forcing cone. After 50 rounds accuracy has gone south. It only takes a few minutes to clean it, but not worth the trouble.

Not leading example: Another accurate bullet in the same gun will shoot 200 rounds, and maintain 100% of the accuracy. There may be a hint of lead, when inspected with a magnifying glass. The barrel is clean and shiny after a few swipes with a Chore Boy wrapped bronze brush. Just because that works fast. It could go more rounds with any cleaning, but I haven't tried more.

That's very similar to what others are saying.

btroj

10-21-2011, 07:52 PM

357 Shooter, you have described two situations which both involve what I would call leading.
First situation is where I would find a different load. The second has leading but it isn't relevant to accuracy.
It is situations like your second that cause some difficulty for newbies. They see lead and worry. What they need to do is decide whether or not the leading has any real world effect on accuracy. Leading that has not detrimental effects is not something I worry over.

I think new shooters of cast would be better off being concerned with functionality and accuracy of a load rather than the appearance of their barrel. Leading and lube stars mean little compared to good functioning of a handgun and good accuracy.

Mk42gunner

10-21-2011, 08:00 PM

If a few passes with a solvent dipped brush, followed by a couple of wet then dry patches doesn't provide a "clean barrel", then it's leading. If one has to use any special cleaning "tools" for the barrel, it's leading.

I think Walt said it best. To me a light lead wash that removes with normal claning is no problem. If there are chunks or heavy deposits, it is a different story.

The worst I have ever leaded a gun was shooting range reloads through my first GP-100 at the San Diego Indoor Range, when it was on India Street in the late eighties. I scrubbed at a chunk that stuck up about thre times the height of the rifling for about twenty five minutes before giving up and blowing it out with a J-word. Ever since then I am more careful about my loads.

Robert

subsonic

10-21-2011, 08:01 PM

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=36475&d=1318196987

That's NOT leading after 44rds.

Below IS leading after 15rds.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35733&d=1316254049

Bret4207

10-21-2011, 08:10 PM

To me there's the spotless barrel, then the lead "wash" you get with some guns and loads that never builds up or affects accuracy and then there is leading that builds up, get's worse, affects accuracy, etc. A little stain on an otherwise clean barrel that hurts things about as much as that mole on Cindy Crawfords face...that's not leading.

btroj

10-21-2011, 08:33 PM

autopilotmp

10-21-2011, 08:50 PM

Actually, thank you for starting this thread. Guess I have never seen a barrel that has leading. This has been helpful so far keep with the discussion and more pics would be great. Thanks guys!

ColColt

10-21-2011, 09:06 PM

My feelings about leading is that if "there is no leading" it should look like you shot jacketed boolits through it. If there's streaks of grey after several passes with a solvent, brush and patches, that's leading.

I've never had the severity of leading shown in the photo subsonic posted that shows it after 15 shots. I've never had any in the forcing cone itself. However, I have had it just ahead of the forcing cone, beginning with the rifling and continuing for about 3/4" and it looks like small lumps gathered in several places around the circumference of the bore at that point.

I generally clean the barrel if I'm trying out new loads for accuracy, after 25 shots or a given string. I've never shot 100 rounds without cleaning at least twice with brush, solvent and patches. If I can see grey in the barrel following the rifling or at the junction of the lands and forcing cone, that's leading to me-likewise if it's in the mouth of the chambers.

rintinglen

10-22-2011, 08:33 AM

Char-gar, you pose an excellent question.

I have been tempted to call "shennannigans" any number of time, while reading of accounts posted here, of firing what I would call warm, or even hot loads, "with no leading." Granted that different fire arms behave differently, it is not a wonder that new casters are sometimes bewildered when their efforts at duplicating published results are failures. The lack of an agreed upon definition prevents precise communication.

My definition of leading is the visible accumulation of lead deposits in the bore of a rifled fire arm. A light wash in the corners of the grooves that is only visible under magnification and oblique lighting does not count. But if while looking down the barrel, one sees streaks or chunks, or there is visible lead plating in the forcing cone and throat area, that's leading.

subsonic

10-22-2011, 08:53 AM

Char-gar, you pose an excellent question.

I have been tempted to call "shennannigans" any number of time, while reading of accounts posted here, of firing what I would call warm, or even hot loads, "with no leading."

That first pic of NO leading shows my .45 Colt Ruger Bisley after 44rds of 300gr WFNGC over 23gr of H110. I'd call that warm, but it is gas checked. It is now firelapped, but it was the same before. I only firelapped in an attempt to remove a frame thread crush condition.

thehouseproduct

10-22-2011, 09:02 AM

I must be lucky or dumb. I've never noticed any leading from any of loads ever. I've never pushed lead boolit loads however. For me, they are cheap shooting and I don't have the time to wring the potential out of them that many on here do.

NoZombies

10-22-2011, 10:53 PM

I've always considered "leading" to be the build-up or accumulation of lead in the barrel. A "lead wash" wouldn't qualify as leading in my book. I've seen some guns leaded so badly, they looked like smoothbores.

I have one load and gun combination that I don't bother cleaning until the powder fouling starts to bind the cylinder up. And then when I do clean it, I get powder fouling from the barrel, but no lead residue. I don't bother cleaning before that, because accuracy hasn't fallen off. I don't consider that combination to be "leading" even though looking in the bore you can see a light gray "wash".

I have another gun, that with a certain load, would shoot very well for the first 10-15 rounds, and then accuracy would deteriorate rapidly. A not so close inspection, would reveal a lot of lead build up in the barrel that would continue to grow as more rounds were shot. That is what I would call leading, though its not always that dramatic.

The second gun has been fixed since with fire lapping and throat reaming, but it was a real problem getting cast loads to shoot in that gun when I got it.

MtGun44

10-23-2011, 12:27 AM

My definition of leading is any lead streaks being visible after shooting. When I say "no
leading" that means that if I look at the barrel after shooting, it only shows some powder
debris and a shiny bore. Then when I clean the barrel with a few passes of a brass brush
and a few patches, the barrel is absolutely clean and shiny.

Slight leading happens in my Kimber 1911 and my Gold Cup with commercial (too hard and
crappy lube) H&G 68 handloads. It does not build up quickly. I can shoot 1000 rounds or
more without loss of accuracy or problems. It takes a couple of minutes with only a good
brass brush to take out. Minor nuiscance at the most. I should test by removing the lube
from a few hundred and see if a good lube fixes the issue, but frankly it is so little problem
that I can't work up a 'round tuit' to use.

Major leading, covers the barrel in a few rounds to a few dozen rounds. Accuracy rapidly
deteriorates and the mess is a lot of work to get out, best done with an electroplater, with
the Lewis Lead Remover as a second best cleaning method. I have not used either device
for leading in at least 15 years, probably longer. IIRC, I used the same commercial H&G 68s
in my S&W .45 ACP (Brazilian 1939 version of the 1917 model) and really leaded it up badly.
The first and only time that I de-leaded a barrel with the Foul-Out 2, and it did a magnificent
job on a really, really leaded bore. Proper diameter (.455) and good lube solved the problems
in the 1939/1917.

I do see the lead wash in some of my rifles, but no build up in the smaller number of rounds that
I shoot through a rifle - compared to a pistol.

Bill

9.3X62AL

10-24-2011, 11:33 AM

I agree with the folks who state that just a "lead wash" is not within my "leaded barrel" definition, since it does not affect accuracy and is easily removed with mild chemical solvents. When a tight patch pulls silver slivers out of land/groove corners--THAT is leading. Time to mine it out.

Lloyd Smale

10-25-2011, 12:47 PM

agreed. If it doesnt effect accuracy the only one who would care is one of those guys thats so anal he has to scrub a bore after ever 12 rounds. Me its more like 1200!!
I agree with the folks who state that just a "lead wash" is not within my "leaded barrel" definition, since it does not affect accuracy and is easily removed with mild chemical solvents. When a tight patch pulls silver slivers out of land/groove corners--THAT is leading. Time to mine it out.

Char-Gar

10-25-2011, 01:23 PM

Gents.. Thanks for all your responses and experiences.

New folks...This will help you understand that "no leading" does not mean "no lead".

nitro-express

01-29-2017, 05:48 PM

I agree with Bret- a wash of color isn't leading.
I find that the wash of color doesn't show up on a dry patch, gives no resistance when patching out a barrel, and seems to have detrimental effect on accuracy.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_16434ea20e9b3b02c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2465)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_16434ea20ea7bd6f2.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2466)

The patch shows the lead that came out of the barrel on my GP100 tonight. This was after 18 rounds with a Mihec 359640 PB over 13 gr of WC820. The photo of the throat is AFTER the patching out of the barrel. The end of the lands seem clean but you can see a ring of leading in the forcing cone. This to me is a clear sign of leading. This is the kind of leading that can quickly kill accuracy.

I've been chasing the kind of leading shown here, forcing cone leading. It is a like fine grains of lead stuck to each other. My take on the cause is gas leaking past the base of the bullet or boolit when it is in the chamber (cylinder) throat. The blow-by picks up lead and spray welds it to the forcing cone. I view this as a serious flaw, and try and correct the cause.

Thanks, very good picture.