Pedersoli Gibbs .72 African

[Alan]

FINALLY got the Gibbs out and shot it yesterday afternoon, after having it since January. First I was busy ramping up on new job, then THE HEAT hit here in Texas.

Description: I really, REALLY like the way this gun is put together - way better ergonomics than the Kodiak doubles. The whole hammer-nipple-fence relationship is set up correctly: I didn't get a copper shower in a full afternoon of shooting heavy loads. The rear sight may look a little cheesy, but I was able to get it dialed in on the center of the bull with no problems whatsoever, and I do love ghost-ring sights.

The only ding I have against this rifle is that dadgum it, a gun should have a loading rod under the barrel. I know that carrying the rod separately is HC, but a lot of Gibbs were built with the ramrod pipes also. I procured a 5/8" hardwood dowel to do ramming duties, along with my normal 1/2" ball starter.

Shooting:
Pedersoli recommends a charge of 100 grains FFg, a .710 ball, and .010 patching. I started with a .715 ball, .022 patching, and 80 gr. FFg, and olive oil for patch lube. I think this load has the same problem I encountered with the Kodiak. Due to ball diameter and the patent breech, you can't even compress 80 gr. by volume in this barrel. At 50 yards, the balls were all over the paper. The .022 patching was too heavy, and frankly the bore was not smooth. Visible cutter marks, and I had to use the "persuader" on the starter to get the ball into the bore, even after breaking the sharp edges of the muzzle w/ my thumb and 320-grit emery paper. The patch wasn't being cut, it was just hard to ram.

After switching to .010 linen patches, 90 grains began to produce groups of 3-4", and 100 grains made the balls get downright friendly: 1" to 1 1/2" at 50 yards. The olive oil seemed to be doing the trick for the most part. I couldn't detect a carbon ring in the breech while ramming, and just continued shooting for practice and load development, eventually working up to 110 gr and still getting good accuracy. As I continued to shoot, I noticed that ramming the ball was getting significantly easier. Tight going in at the muzzle, but about 6" down, it was taking a lot less effort all the way to the breech. I think this gun has a slight "choke" to it. It is my understanding that is one of the hallmarks of the great makers of the 19th cent, and one of the reasons the Pedersoli BP ctg guns shoot better than they have any right to do.

I finally ran out of FFg, and it was down to trying a 1/2 flask of FFFg I had along, or opening a can of Fg. 110 gr of Fg produced a louder boom, reduced recoil, and raised the POI high and right. Up til now, increasing charges had merely tightened groups, not changed POI. Fg appeared to increase barrel time. I think I now have a way to uncross my .58 Kodiak. 8)

Subsequent shooting revealed hangfires, and an occasional FTF. Twice I had to pull the nipple, trickle in a scootch of FFF, and replace and recap to get it to fire. I was using some VERY old Remington caps. I switched to a tin of fresh CCI's and didn't have a further misfire, and hangfires seemed to diminish. Fouling in the bore STILL appeared to be wiped out by subsequent shots, as loading still was consistent shot to shot. I didn't wipe the bore once during a full afternoon of shooting. I upped the charge to 120 grns, and accuracy, while not up to the 100-110gr FF level, did improve.

At this point, I ran out of daylight. My next session, I think I'm going to start with 130 gr of Fg and see if ignition and burning continue to improve. Recoil, while heavy, still isn't bad. I can't shoot heavy CF guns, but these muzzies come back as a hard push - the difference between someone shoving hard on your shoulder w/ a baseball bat, vs letting them swing away at it.

Another thing I'm going to try is switching back to Hoppes's #9 Plus for patch lube. It has worked great for me in the past, and I'm wondering if some of the hard ramming near the muzzle is due to the patch running out of lube too soon, and the fouling up there being a bit harder. The other thing I want to try eventually is switching to a .710 ball to see if that will allow the heavier denim patching to work easier. Having to tap the starter a couple of times with a hammer handle is ok for the range, but I need something that loads a little easier for the field. I may make another pass with the emery paper at the crown too.

[ss40_70]

let me start by saying i am by no means a muzzleloading expert , with that said my expeariance with r/b rifles has been thay ive gotten my best acuracy when i can push the started patched ball down with a nice smooth motion there shouldnt be any tamping or whacking on the rod or ball starter .. maybe a light tap or two with your palm on the starter at most .. i feel that if you have to do any more than that you are just deforming the ball , but thats just my 2 cents .. it may not help you at all , as it seems your well on your way to getting a good load worked up

[Alan]

Part of the problem seems to be a visibly rough bore. Anything tighter than the .010 linen was hard to start. It may just be rough for the first 4 or 5 inches from the muzzle, or the patch may be drying out and not softening the fouling for the last few inches of the barrel before it exits. With lubricated bullets, streaks of lead right in front of the muzzle indicate that you are running out of lube, as a general rule.

The difference between that barrel, and a brand new GM barrel are dramatic. Easy test - how does the barrel feel just running a dry patch down it while it is clean? Is it smooth and consistent, vs jumps and starts and snags? Most production barrels could do with a bit of lapping, but I'm not to worried. Shooting will lap it too.

The recommended ball, with the recommended patch, started out loading very rough, and gradually got better as I loaded and shot 50 rounds or so during the afternoon. I never wiped the bore with a cleaning patch other than the ball I was ramming down for the next shot, and I pretty much insist on any load I use for target shooting or hunting behave in that fashion. If the ball/patch combo is right, spit or Hoppes's 9 Plus will allow this. Was experimenting with pure olive oil on this occasion, and it seemed to work for the most part.

[Alan]

Well, I did what I should have done first. With the range lead I was using, the .715 Lyman ball was actually casting .719-.720. That would work with pure lead in the .724 bore, but is a wee bit tight with a harder ball.

I either need to come up with better pure lead, or I'm going to have to order a .710 mould.

Alan

[ss40_70]

i havent had any luck either with ball harder then pure pb .. but dangit a fellow i shoot with makes ball with wheel weight or about anything he can pour and out shoots me at every turn .. makes a fellow mad ...

[Hang Fire]

let me start by saying i am by no means a muzzleloading expert , with that said my expeariance with r/b rifles has been thay ive gotten my best acuracy when i can push the started patched ball down with a nice smooth motion there shouldnt be any tamping or whacking on the rod or ball starter .. maybe a light tap or two with your palm on the starter at most .. i feel that if you have to do any more than that you are just deforming the ball , but thats just my 2 cents .. it may not help you at all , as it seems your well on your way to getting a good load worked up

When pure galena gets smacked in the butt with several thousand lbs of pressure, obturation takes place and it ain't round no more when it exits the bore.

[Hang Fire]

Another thing I'm going to try is switching back to Hoppes's #9 Plus for patch lube. It has worked great for me in the past, and I'm wondering if some of the hard ramming near the muzzle is due to the patch running out of lube too soon, and the fouling up there being a bit harder. The other thing I want to try eventually is switching to a .710 ball to see if that will allow the heavier denim patching to work easier. Having to tap the starter a couple of times with a hammer handle is ok for the range, but I need something that loads a little easier for the field. I may make another pass with the emery paper at the crown too.

The hard starting at muzzle is most likely due to oversized ball being form fitted to the bore, once reduced, it slides easier down the bore.

For target shooting and plinking, spit patching has served me well over the decades and it is always there.

Just think of the carried RR as a slightly flimsy shooting stick.

[ss40_70]

yes i do realise that obturation takes place and you no longer have a round ball any longer , but isnt the idea to start with a nice uniform ball to get the best acuracy ,

[.38 Special]

My results have been very similar to yours. The rifling on mine is very shallow - only about .001". I suspect it may be a factory error, and I intended to send it back after demonstrating to myself it was a shotgun.

I started with balls hardened with tin, which is historically correct for this type of rifle. I used the suggested .715" ball and .015" patches lubed with Wonder lube. They had to be whacked into the barrel with a short starter and wouldn't always stay on paper at 50 yards.

Then I switched to pure lead from the same Lyman mold. These were still hard to start in the .729" bore, but showed real promise at 50 yards.

Then, just like you, I wised up and measured the balls and found them to be dropping at .719". I bought the only .710" mold I could find - a "primitive" scissor mold from Track of the Wolf. As promised, balls from that mold weren't quite round. They also weren't .710", actually coming close to the .715" the Lyman was supposed to produce. And accuracy was poor - not as bad as the hardened balls, but not good enough.

While I was thinking about a custom mold, I ordered some balls from Flintlocks etc., advertised as sprueless .715". I thought that might mean they were pressure formed, which is my favorite kind of muzzleloader projectile. They aren't - just plain cast balls; who knows why they're advertised as sprueless - but they also turned out to be .710". Apparently, I've got the only micrometer in the business.

At any rate, those balls with the .015" Wonder patches were relatively easy to load and as accurate as the balls from the Lyman mold. Then, I tried the Flintlocks etc. balls with .010" Wonder patches and got the "one finger" loading pressure that I prefer, but groups opened up a bit. The addition of a 12 gauge Wonder Wad between powder and patched ball brought group size down to the smallest yet, averaging a nice round 4" at 100 yards, which is well within my expectations for a roundball gun.

All this, BTW, is with the historically correct four drams (110 grains) of Swiss 2fg. Many of the original 12 bore rifles, BTW, were regulated for use with the same load of 3fg, and I may someday try it. I just always get nervous about significantly exceeding recommended max loads, even though Pedersoli uses modern steel.


Oh, and I'm actually happy the ramrod has been deleted. IMO the rifle looks much better without it. At the range I use a heavy steel loading rod with a muzzle guide, and in the field I use a collapsible rod, obtainable through Pedersoli - though at the ridiculous exchange rate, you're probably better off looking somewhere else.

[.38 Special]

Oh, and this is the cleanest shooting muzzleloader I have ever owned, which is one of the reasons I'm not sending it back. I don't know if it's the shallow rifling, the smoothness of the bore (I guess I'm the winner of the lottery Alan lost!), the patent breach, or the hot RWS caps, but for whatever reason, the bore simply doesn't foul. The 30th loading is as easy as the first, and the rifle cleans up with two patches saturated with Competition bore cleaner. When I do use the hot water method, the water doesn't even get dirty - first time I've ever experienced that in a couple of decades fooling with muzzleloaders.

[Alan]

I was at the range yesterday with it. Tried the .710 mould, that actually casts .713-.715, and was able to go to the .020 patches I prefer. One whack on the starter was plenty to get the ball down to cut the patch, then one more to get it the full long leg of the starter. Shot well too, with 120 FFg and ToW mink oil for lube. The new balls ram easily - not 2 finger grip easy, but very doable for hunting loads, and I didn't have to wipe once. I even rammed it once just using the ramrod after cutting the patch. I just had to choke up, and use short firm strokes - not hammering it, just a firm push.

Only thing that didn't shoot well was 130gr of Goex 1Fg. I may try a heavier charge eventually, but it did not like that stuff one little bit. Oh well, my 8 bore does. 8)

Tried a T/C Renegade I had just gotten in w/ a GM .58 barrel. It shot well to, but actually seem to be more uncomfortable to shoot than the Gibbs - and I was only using 100gr of FFg in it.

Turned around and knocked a half full glass bottle of Hoppes' #9+ off onto the concrete. I have been looking for a re-supply of it for weeks, so now I'm completely out, and Hoppes is backordered on it.

[smoked turkey]

I have just received a Lee .58 REAL 440 gr mold for my 58s. I have other molds but they all are too loose in the bore IMO. I like to feel some resistance when I ram a big conical down the bore. This is especially true for a hunting rifle. It seems to me there is too much chance of a boolit sliding forward during hunting. This could produce a very undesirable situation causing at a minimum a ringed barrel. I am told the Lee REAL will go down with some resistance.
Too bad about the Hoppes #9 accident. On the positive side I imagine your area smells pretty good. I like the smell of #9. They should market some after shave that smells like it. I am anxious to do some load development for my .58 Kodiak and my TC FireHawk. I haven't had opportunity to burn some 2F in too long.
Alan I have enjoyed reading your experiences with your big .72. Sounds awesome.

[excess650]

My 'big bore" at the moment is a .58 cal with 32" tapered octagon barrel and weighs about 7-1/4#. My normal hunting load is 100gr KIK ffg under a .565" with pillow ticking and the TOW mink oil. The butt on my rifle is a full 2-1/8" wide, so distributes the recoil well.

I've received a phone call and my .62 cal Jaeger is complete (in the white), so I'll be working on getting that one finished. It too has a 2-1/8" wide butt so shouldn't be too bad. Its almost twin is in .69 cal with 31" vs my 28-1/2". Mine will weigh just under 8# and the .69 weighs 7-1/4#. I've shot the .69 with 100gr Swiss ffg, and its quite lively, but its intended to be a hunting rifle rather than target rifle. The same builder just completed a .75 cal that weighed 10#, and he said it was far more comfortable to shoot with 120gr than the .69 cal.

Yeah, I like the Tow mink oil for a patch lube, and particularly for hunting. You don't have to worry about it migrating into the powder, and its noticebly slicker to load than the water soluable oil based lube I often use at the range.

I took a nice Virginia whitetail with the .58 on Wednesday morning, and then a longbeard on Thursday afternoon. I was surprised how little bloodshot meat was encountered when butchering the deer.

[Alan]

I just got in a T/C Renegade w/ a GM .58 barrel on it: 32" and 1:70 twist. 100 Goex FFG was a bit more punishing than the .72 w/ 120gr FFg. Stock design matters a LOT. It was very shootable, but I felt it the next day. I shot the .72 all afternoon the other day, and was tired, but not sore at all, and I wasn't sore the next day.

I'm having a .62 English Sporter built using a Rigby style stock. My target weight was about 9-9.5 lbs. I may get that lightened a bit to 8.5-9 lbs, but wouldn't want to go any lighter.

[.38 Special]

I guess I must have lace in my panties, but I do like to use my PAST pad with the Gibbs African. It doesn't hit as hard as some of my "dangerous game" centerfires, but the steel buttplate gets to wearing a hole in me after a while.

I note that Pedersoli is offering a "Minie" ball mold for this rifle. I can't quite make up my mind about it - especially for the price - but it's interesting...

[Alan]

I carried my .66 Christian's Spring rifle to the range today. I was having a ball - this is my first flint-lock - til I dry-balled it. I made 3 attempts to push enough 2F through the vent to move the ball, and had no joy. I wound up using my ball-puller to clear it. By that time it was getting pretty dark. Only had time for 10 shots or so. 8(

I couldn't imagine using a minie' in the Gibbs. You would probably max on recoil about 120 grains, and I don't think it would be going much over 1000 fps. That would give you a 3" point blank range of about 50-60 yards.

[excess650]

I prefer flint to percussion. A good flinter is just as quick for ignition, or quicker! A good lock won't be hard on flints either, so you won't have to carry those pesky caps around. Have you priced caps lately?

If you had a removeable touch hole liner you could have added powder that way, or used your finer priming powder to get enough behind the ball to push it out. The White Lightning liners are quick, but not forgiving.

[waksupi]

4f sure is easier to poke in that ittty bitty hole.....!!!!!

[.38 Special]

I couldn't imagine using a minie' in the Gibbs. You would probably max on recoil about 120 grains, and I don't think it would be going much over 1000 fps. That would give you a 3" point blank range of about 50-60 yards.

It's a bit less than 100 grains heavier than a .715" roundball, so must be very short. Would have to be, to stabilize in the slow twist, I suppose. With five drams, I suspect it would be useable out to 100 yards or so - and a killer on both ends!

[Cannoneer]

Has anyone tried using Balistol for patching lube?

I have a .54 Harpers Ferry Flinter I'm going to try out when I get back from Iraq and plan to use Balistol over any of the other lubes mentioned.

[waksupi]

Has anyone tried using Balistol for patching lube?

I have a .54 Harpers Ferry Flinter I'm going to try out when I get back from Iraq and plan to use Balistol over any of the other lubes mentioned.

Works fine. Dilute it down to around 1 part Ballistol to 7 parts water. May even be able to add a bit more water.

[excess650]

Ballistol, UGH! When I shot BPCRS one of the guys cleaned his rifle with the stuff. When combined with BP residue it really smells like schtinky ****!

[.38 Special]

Ballistol is second to Wonder Lube, in my experience, but superior to just about everything else. I personally use it without adding water or anything else. It does smell bad, though. Wonder Lube works slightly better both as a patch/wad lube and as a cleaner/preservative, and has a very pleasant smell to boot.

[waksupi]

Ballistol is second to Wonder Lube, in my experience, but superior to just about everything else. I personally use it without adding water or anything else. It does smell bad, though. Wonder Lube works slightly better both as a patch/wad lube and as a cleaner/preservative, and has a very pleasant smell to boot.

Until you use it in cold weather! :groner:

[Nobade]

Has anyone tried using Balistol for patching lube?

I have a .54 Harpers Ferry Flinter I'm going to try out when I get back from Iraq and plan to use Balistol over any of the other lubes mentioned.


That's what I use in my Pedersoli 12 bore double rifle. Pillow ticking patches wet with a mix of Ballistol/water over 4 3/4 drams of KIK FFg and a Lyman .715 ball cast from air cooled wheelweights. Shoots amazingly accurately and can load and shoot all day without wiping. Each time you load it the patch cleans the bore so it never accumulates fouling.

Plus it smells good! Ha!

[.38 Special]

Until you use it in cold weather! :groner:

I'll have to defer to your experience on that count. "Cold" in my neighborhood is 50 degrees F.

[Abert Rim]

I don't know if the bore and twist specs of the Gibbs are the same as the .72 Kodiak, but I used to shoot the NEI .732-835 paradox-style slug in the Kodiak with reasonable accuracy. Recoil wasn't bad until I got beyond 120 grains FFg, then it became an issue.

[.38 Special]

Well, I'm kind of redfaced about it, but after several additional range trips I realized that accuracy just wasn't consistent enough. With my very best load, I was still getting maybe 10% flyers. It'd put down a couple of good looking three shot groups, and then throw one into the target frame. Experience shows me that the bad one is always the one that comes up when you really need to put the ball in the right place (trophy buck, etc.) so I sent it back. The gunsmith at the store from which I bought it agreed that the rifling was about .001" deep, and then determined that all the other ones he had on hand were the same. In his words "They really wouldn't be much better than a good smooth bore".

So in the end I'm disappointed. It was a very easy rifle to like, with great looks, lots of power, and good fit. I wonder why so many Pedersoli rifles have to have a single, serious flaw?

At any rate, I ended up taking a refund, which will go toward an engraved Pedersoli Gibbs target rifle in .45 caliber. I hear those do what they're meant to...

[Alan]

I hope to hit the range with mine tomorrow. I have some new patch material and lube to try. Red Wing Shoe wax. Mink oil, lanolin, and silicone - what's not to love? It is a bit softer than ToW's mink oil.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Just curious, but was there a reason you ignored the recommended starting load for one so radically different? Their reference load was likely the one regulation was done with, eh?

Rich

[Alan]

If you are referring to me, the Kodiak's are not regulated at all. They are put in a jig and brazed together. Lawyers determine the recommended load. It is up to the shooter to try and find one that prints close together.

The rifle referred to in the OP is a Pedersoli Gibbs .72 African - it is a single barrel, and in no need of regulation at all. The recommended load for it isn't even all that bad - 100 gr of Goex 2F shot ok, but not great. The main problem I had is that my supply of pure lead is somewhat limited, and I prefer to save it for my C&B revolvers.

I have a LOT of pretty soft range scrap, but it was casting a bit large from the recommended .715 mould. .710" seems to work a lot better, and allows a patch that is thick enough to carry enough lube. Most of my experimentation with this gun has been trying to get the right ball/patch combo. The best most accurate powder charge at 50 yards seems to be 110 gr of Goex 2Fg. Once I get the patches ironed out (he he) I will play around w/ more powder selections. I don't NEED more power,but I would like to get a load that will shoot reasonably flat to 100 yards.

Alan

[.38 Special]

Per the Dixie web page, "Recommended load 100 grains of FFg black powder, .715 round ball, .010 patch."

Is ten grains of powder and five thousandths diameter that radically different?

[Alan]

Depending on the gun, yep. My mould with my alloy was casting .719 instead of .715. REALLY tight to load. And slow twists like to be pushed pretty hard for accuracy. You generally also get smaller velocity variations with heavier charges in PRB rifles due to the fact that while energy increase is linear, velocity only goes up as the square root.

Variations like that are why pellets are a BAD idea as a general rule. Even if you are using the fake stuff, use loose fake stuff and play around a bit to find what your rifle likes best.