Commercial Casting - Equipment Recommendations

[toecutter]

Well, my recent reloaded ammo biz is so far a success. I am currently producing OEM reloads for a number of large local gun shops. When I was down there pimping my wares the other day a customer came in who had some real interest in having "cowboy" loads made for him. This means lead bullet, low power etc.

Now, Since I have some casting under my belt, I think I know what I'm getting myself into.

However, I feel the need to upgrade my equipment. As great as it is to use my coleman stove to sit around casting them 1-2 at a time, I don't think it's going to cut it in the long run. So I am considering getting a machine to make it for me. Due to some limited funding, it's not practical to spend 10,000$ on an "out of the box" solution that may not pan out.

I am looking at the magma engineering "master caster" machine, I'm wondering if any of you have any opinions or experience with these. The main goal is that I can use unskilled labor (my little brother, no he's not that little) to keep the machine going and still get a reasonable output.

The other thing I need is a lube sizer. Originally I looked at the Magma engineering tools, which seemed to be expensive versions of the RCBS and Lyman lube sizers. However, after a bit of web searching, I found "ballisti-cast" which makes their Mark VI lube sizer. which is a semi-automatic lube sizer it just requires someone to run the lever and keep bullets in the tube.

The total investment on these would be about $1200 which is very acceptable.

Do you guys have any opinions on this?

[44woody]

toecutter before I bought my magma equipment I looked at bolistic casting equipment and desided on Magma equipment you can get auto feeders for the star and a air attachment to keep the pressure equal on the lube I went with the master caster becouse it was are easer to use and built way better than the bolistic cast michine when I have a problem with magma equipment I just call them up and get all the support help that I can ever use I have never regreted getting Magma equipment in my oppinion it is the best you can buy :castmine: with magma 44Woody

[Phil]

Don't forget that you need a FFL for manufacturing ammunition for sale, and I'd also consider a big liability insurance policy a must.

Cheers,

Phil

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive ran the ballitic cast and the magma casting machines and prefer the magma. As to the sizers there both good and have there advantages but id still have to go with the magma to keep the equip. from the same company. As to 1200 bucks you must be talking just the sizer as your not going to touch a casting machine or ever a fully auto sizer for that your looking more toward 5 grand apiece set up and more for molds and sizer dies. Keep your eyes on the auction sights and even ebay as ive seen them used on there for around a grand and thats a helll of a savings

[garandsrus]

Toecutter,

Assuming you have a FFL to produce ammo, what was invovled in getting it? How big a hassle was it? Also, can you give me an idea as to the cost to get liability insurance for whatever policy amount you purchased?

Finally, what are you using to produce commercial ammo? I am familiar with Comdex machines but don't know if there is something else out there, other than a manual press.

I have heard that it's a felony to make and sell ammo without the FFL but don't know if that's true.

Thanks,
John

[KYCaster]

The license required is a manufacturer's license, not an FFL, and one of the requirements is product liability insurance.(TWO MILLION DOLLARS WORTH when I looked into it several years ago)

It sounded to me like the biggest problem would be keeping up with the excise tax. If you sold ammo back to the same customer who provided the brass, then the tax was not necessary, everything else was subject to the tax. (12% IIRC......CRS) AND.....they don't accept "Weelllllll....that bucket of brass came from Joe's Shootin' Imporium." They require documentation. If the number of loaded rounds don't match the number of brass (caliber specific) then they want the tax on the entire lot.

AND.....unlike an FFL dealer who might get a visit from the Feds a couple times a year, an audit on a manufacturer is a common thing. After all, they are trying to collect a Fed. tax on every transaction.

AND.....if you think you'll stay under their radar because you're just a small time hobby reloader who's just trying to make a few extra bucks, you're kidding yourself. If you're selling to gun shops and shooting ranges, your product is on their shelves for everyone to see, including the BATFE agent who does the audit on their business a couple times a year.

SOOOO.....selling a few reloads isn't much of a crime....but, TAX EVASION is a FELONY, punishable by.....JAIL TIME. If you're selling reloaded ammo and you don't have a license, do yourself a favor and go to the BATFE website and find out what you're required to do and what the consequences are if you don't do it.

I'm sorry if this sounds a little "over the top" but I've seen the Fed. system in action a couple of times, once as a witness and once as a juror, and it isn't pretty if you're on the recieving end. (BOHICA)

FWIW
Jerry

[Scrounger]

So what does this mean?
Type 6 FFL is a licensed maker of ammunition and reloading components other than Armor Piercing ammunition..
Anyone who is thinking of doing anything like this should first thing call your local ATF and see how they interpret the requirements. Their opinion is the one that counts, not yours, not mine, and not the guy next door...

[Wayne Smith]

Type 6 is the FFL you need, you may also need a local business license. The FFL is no problem, it's just $10 per year like the C&R. An agent will come out and talk to you and inspect your operation. As long as you are not obviously illegal or unsafe it's a formality, or at least mine was.

Type 6 is needed for the manufacture of any type of component or ammunition, including bullets only.

[toecutter]

Toecutter,

Assuming you have a FFL to produce ammo, what was invovled in getting it? How big a hassle was it? Also, can you give me an idea as to the cost to get liability insurance for whatever policy amount you purchased?

Finally, what are you using to produce commercial ammo? I am familiar with Comdex machines but don't know if there is something else out there, other than a manual press.

I have heard that it's a felony to make and sell ammo without the FFL but don't know if that's true.

Thanks,
John

The FFL to produce ammo is fairly cheap provided you don't produce AP or "destructive device" ammunition. I ended up getting a type 06 and a type 01 for the occasional transfer. It wasn't terribly hard, I got signoffs from the local PD and did a lot of paperwork. In addition to that there are also excise taxes which are factored in which need to be paid.

FFL info: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/fflc/index.htm

The other thing that comes into play which I have been able to avoid by having my customers supply most of the components has been FAET (excise taxes). There is some good info online here: (down towards the bottom of the page)

http://www.ttb.gov/firearms/index.shtml

As far as insurance, I am covered under the customer's insurance contractually. However, I was able to get supplimental insurance at a reasonable rate (~200/mo for $1M liability).

Currently, I'm using several different machines, mostly dillon 1050's. They are good and strong, but right now are a stop-gap until I can get some bigger machines. The two manufacturers of commercial loaders so far that I have found are the "camdex" and "ammo load" both of which have some websites which have some info on them.

I am currently talking to a guy who has a few ammo load machines for sale. I think I'm probably going to pick them up.

The magma cast machine seems to have a great price point, even if it drops the production rate down somewhat. The problem I'm having is that they don't have a "mid range" machine for lube-sizing. So I'm either stuck with a fully automated one for $4K or a single stage for 200... I want something which is semi-automated like the master caster (uses a handle) which is why I was looking at the ballisticast machine as a solution.

[Lloyd Smale]

if you go to the magma websight you can order options for the standard lubesizer to make it into anything from bare bones to the fully auto machine.
The FFL to produce ammo is fairly cheap provided you don't produce AP or "destructive device" ammunition. I ended up getting a type 06 and a type 01 for the occasional transfer. It wasn't terribly hard, I got signoffs from the local PD and did a lot of paperwork. In addition to that there are also excise taxes which are factored in which need to be paid.

FFL info: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/fflc/index.htm

The other thing that comes into play which I have been able to avoid by having my customers supply most of the components has been FAET (excise taxes). There is some good info online here: (down towards the bottom of the page)

http://www.ttb.gov/firearms/index.shtml

As far as insurance, I am covered under the customer's insurance contractually. However, I was able to get supplimental insurance at a reasonable rate (~200/mo for $1M liability).

Currently, I'm using several different machines, mostly dillon 1050's. They are good and strong, but right now are a stop-gap until I can get some bigger machines. The two manufacturers of commercial loaders so far that I have found are the "camdex" and "ammo load" both of which have some websites which have some info on them.

I am currently talking to a guy who has a few ammo load machines for sale. I think I'm probably going to pick them up.

The magma cast machine seems to have a great price point, even if it drops the production rate down somewhat. The problem I'm having is that they don't have a "mid range" machine for lube-sizing. So I'm either stuck with a fully automated one for $4K or a single stage for 200... I want something which is semi-automated like the master caster (uses a handle) which is why I was looking at the ballisticast machine as a solution.

[garandsrus]

toecutter,

Thanks for the comprehensive response! I met with a commercial ammo producer a couple times and saw his operation. He probably had 15 Camdex machines, a brass sorter, packager, three cement mixers (tumblers), Scharch resizer, etc.

He also had a Camdex machine for sale in .38 Special. I think he wanted 2-3K for it. I don't know if it's still for sale.

I have seen the Camdex machines in operation and they were interesting to watch. They aren't too gentle with the ammo though. The end station uses compressed air to move the cartridge off the machine and it does it with some force. He may have just had his air pressure turned up too high.

As 6 gun junky mentioned, there are some options that speed up production on a Magma sizer. I would think that you would want the bullet feeder and the air pressure regulator. Then all you would need to do is pull the handle to size a bunch of boolits.

John

[Tru-Cast]

ToeCutter. Congratulations on your new ammo business. I would recommend against trying to cast commercially with manual equipment. I would recommend buying your bullets from a commercial bullet caster, at least initially. If after a year your lead bullet requirements are high (like over 10K/month), maybe then consider it but only if you have a lot of time on your hands. But if you have a day job and an ammo business, I doubt you would ever have time to also cast.

Casting for yourself you can get away with melting wheel weights in your garage or yard. Unless you live in a remote area, your neighbors may frown on you melting thousands of pounds of wheelweights. Plus you would have to buy tin to add, and dispose of the clips, dross, and other assorted garbage that comes with WW. EPA is very strict on disposal. You can avoid disposal problems by using alloy from a smelter, but you're looking at $1.20/pound and over $17 in alloy for a box of 200 grain bullets. Then you've got boxes, labels, etc.; all the overhead associated with another separate business. Economically and time-wise, I think you're better off buying lead bullets at $25/500 (200 gr bullets delivered) and saving your time to make more money loading ammo.

That said, if you still want to give casting a try, watch Ebay for a used Bullet Master automated caster from Magma Engineering. You will probably have to buy moulds new at $325 for a half set (4 moulds instead of 8). I would stick with the most popular cowboy bullet first, 45Colt 200 gr RNFP (BB). You could then get a new Magma/Star sizer with the feed option and .452 die for much less than the automated Lube Master and collator. If it doesn't work out you can sell the equipment and get most your money back.

Jim Dunn
Tru-Cast Bullets
www.tru-cast.com

[madcaster]

I have seen whole operations on EBay,magnacasters with plenty of moulds for them,sellers not willing to seperate the stuff,all or nothing.
but,when you add up the replacements costs,always a pretty decent deal.
Also on Auction Arms,and other auction sites....

[Sundogg1911]

Toecutter,
I really like the Magma Master Caster. I may slow you down some if you're using a few 6 cavitys at a time, but it doesnt beat you up. My 18 year old Daughter uses it (She's cast's and reloads for Her PPK, and helps me out) the Stars can be used with bullet feeds and air pressure very quickly. It all depends how fast production needs to be. Good luck with the new biz.! I wish you all of the success in the world! :drinks:

[LAH]

Wayne Smith said: Type 6 is needed for the manufacture of any type of component or ammunition, including bullets only.

We held a Class 6 License but didn't need it to produce bullets. I had one mostly for discount prices on reloading stuff. Unless things have changed the ATF Agent who inspected us (25 yrs. service) said no license was needed to produce and sell cast bullets.

I applied for my license while Reno was in the justice dept and was put off and put off. This went on for 6 months. I went to my Congressman's office and a week later the ATF was knocking on my door. Great guy and in a couple weeks my license was on the door.........Creeker