Lyman Handbook

[Frank]

I saw the new Lying man Cast Bullet Handbook. It showed a max load for .475 Linebaugh and the Lee 400 bullet of 22.5 grns H110 at about 1250 fps and 29,500 psi. They used a Large Pistol Mag primer in a universal barrel. Who are they kidding? A Hornady book shows 26 grns for a 400 grn jacketed bullet and a Large Rifle Primer and 1350 fps in the Handgun section. Why is Lying man so low?

[subsonic]

Sounds optimistic to me. What brass and what barrel length?

[MT Gianni]

I think they went for accuracy rather than max loads. They show a 32 H&R load as "do not exceed" that is the same one listed for 32 long in Lyman 39 IIRC.

[Frank]

subsonic:

Sounds optimistic to me. What brass and what barrel length?

You should have seen the starting charges. After looking at that manual, one would think cast has to be downloaded. But with a revolver bullet, it's just the opposite. A revolver bullet potentially can be shot faster than a jacketed round because it has lube. Less friction, lower pressure, more powder and speed. The cast bullet in the revolver out performs the jacketed. It is just the opposite of what is portrayed by the two manuals.

[darkroommike]

I haven't bothered to do the math but I think the concern here is the pressure your alloy can take (not the velocity) before it starts to fail. I will assume that Lyman Cast Bullet is using Lyman #2 and not some super hard alloy that is heat treated or water quenched. I just got my LCB#4 and haven't had but one day to study it so far.

[Bret4207]

I'm not the worlds greatest Lyman fan, but saying they are lying is rather strong. Any load data is reference material and will react differently with different guns, and certainly in a production gun vs pressure barrel scenario. I'd cut them a little slack Frank, you aren't the one that's in line for a law suit if Milton T. Aardvark uses their data in a home made "475 Lymebow" based on a 1930's Spanish made Smith K frame copy.

[Lloyd Smale]

probably liability issues but the funny thing is there downloading 110 so much that its getting to the point of being dangerous because of it. the standard max load for the 475 has allways been 27 grains with a 400 and that will get about 1350 out of my 5.5 inch gun. I doubt that load would get you a 1000 fps out of any linebaugh ive shot. Maybe in a #1 ruger. I dont load anything under 24 grains with 110. If i want something milder then that i use 2400. Dont know where they came up with the max pressure of 29,500 either. Any 475 made will easily take 45000. All i can figure is they are using the max pressure data from a 500 linebaugh. Even at that its rediculously low. I know lots of reloaders swear by those lyman manuals but ive allways found them to be lacking. Ive got a couple that were given to me but wouldnt spend a dime buying one.
I saw the new Lying man Cast Bullet Handbook. It showed a max load for .475 Linebaugh and the Lee 400 bullet of 22.5 grns H110 at about 1250 fps and 29,500 psi. They used a Large Pistol Mag primer in a universal barrel. Who are they kidding? A Hornady book shows 26 grns for a 400 grn jacketed bullet and a Large Rifle Primer and 1350 fps in the Handgun section. Why is Lying man so low?

[Maximumbob54]

You guys are killing me. I use both the 49th and 4th all the time. This had better not be more interweb bs. I had thought since Lyman has been in the game for so long that they had good numbers or wouldn't be in the business anymore.

[subsonic]

What brass are they using? .45-70 brass has quite a bit more capacity than the Hornady .475 and I'm not sure about Starline capacity. Seating depth is another factor. The Lee Boolit has 2 grooves, but usually the 475 uses the front anyway, with the rear for the .480.

There is the variable of lube..... and alloy... vented barrel or not. Barrel length... cut 'em some slack.

Most guys shooting cast are not running top speed anyway.

[white eagle]

I basically use them as a reference
seasoned loaders can see they are falling some what short
on their data

[drklynoon]

I use as many manuals as I can find when load developing. I find that any of the main stream guys can be low or comparitivley high depending on the cartridge. The Lee manual is usually the lowest but the load data for one of my cannons is the highest pressures and speeds in the Lee manual. I don't understand why there are these disparities in these manuals due to them using SAMMI recomendations but they are wildly different. The problem I have with low pressure data is the a novice might start ignoring the data because "they always post lower pressures than my gun will take", That mentality is dangerous even for the experienced loader. I believe the best bet for any of us to at least reference three different manuals before choosing a certain load.

[Frank]

Lloyd Smale:

I dont load anything under 24 grains with 110.
The starting load for H110 was way below that. And it listed a Large Pistol Mag primer!

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook seems to have controversy. In another thread it was discussed before, but the consensus went in the other direction. Most preferred the Lyman. :p Others differed.

35Remington


As I said, I find the load data very limited. It completely ignores powders that will give better results than the fast pistol/shotgun powders in a great many calibers, and that's a shame.

While you're entertaining yourself rereading the manual, look up the data they offer for the 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, 25-20, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 280 Remington, 32-20, 32-40, 35 Remington, 358 Winchester, 375 H and H, 38-55, and a great many others. I trust that's considerable enough flaws for you.

Some of these cartridges are good cast bullet shooters. Some are as perfect for cast as any that have ever been offered.....and they only have pistol/shotgun powders listed for data.

As I said, Lyman wasn't trying too hard, and best accuracy will not be found with these powders. Not to mention that we are nowhere near usable hunting velocities in many instances when such could have been had, with good accuracy, had slower powders been used. Most cartridges are at their best in accuracy and utility when used with slower powders rather than the fast pistol/shotgun types.

Whatever use you personally may have for the Third does not change the fact that my critique of the data there is relevant and points out a serious flaw, repeated for many calibers.

[Lloyd Smale]

frank its probably good that they did use a mag primer. Low powder charges of 110 can be hard to ignite and thats what seems to cause the detonation problem with them. A hotter primer would at least go a ways toward lighting it off safely.

[Frank]

MaximumBob54:

You guys are killing me. I use both the 49th and 4th all the time. This had better not be more interweb bs.

Well it is. I made it all up.

[rintinglen]

Lyman published an excellent treatise on how loads are selected and tested years ago in IIRC, in their #45 Handbook. Among the things they look at are ballistic uniformity, max average pressure, individual round high pressure, and finally general utility. In this case, I suspect they were concerned with Leading from a plain base boolit and set an arbitrary velocity limi. But I don't know why they stopped when they did testing one powder out of several in an obscure caliber that has at most a few thousand users, but to go from that to calling them liars is typical of the internet bully BS that is usually absent from this web site. They publish tested, usable data for over 140 different calibers, including a fair few that have pretty small followings. Any 30 RCM cast shooters out there? 7 Rem Short Action Ultra Mag? 340 Weatherby? They test data that damned few people will ever use, so that shooters will have some safe guidelines to work within. That their data differs from some one else does not make them liars.
I personally make it my habit not to call anyone a liar unless my nose is within reach of his fist. It tempers my responses.

[Frank]

Lloyd Smale:

frank its probably good that they did use a mag primer. Low powder charges of 110 can be hard to ignite and thats what seems to cause the detonation problem with them. A hotter primer would at least go a ways toward lighting it off safely.

The Hornady shows a Large Rifle Primer that's even hotter. That was my idea, that they are showing a very low starting charge with even a pistol primer. I need to check again to see their starting charge. I think it's in the teens. I'm not too interested in starting charges, that's why I don't remember.

As far as the internet BS thing, we need to remember that Lyman is not God. They are humanoids just like all of us and what they recommend will be scrutinized, perhaps even more, than anyone else. They need to be scrutinized more because they are more visible.