.22 lr bpcr !!

[Baja_Traveler]

My David Mos mold showed up on my door step yesterday, and 30 minutes after getting home I was pouring my first .22 boolits. Tricky little mold to keep up to temperature, but the 50 I cast are perfect little pills showing no parting lines or defects. They drop from the mold at .225" This is the mold group buy that W30WCF put together earlier in the year.

http://www.pbase.com/baja_traveler/image/138989362.jpg

My initial idea was to tumble lube them, but not having any on hand I decided to take advantage of the little lube grooves and pan lube them with my usual BPCR lube. Pan lubing these little guys was surprisingly easy, and the lube took to the grooves nicely. The rest of the boolit has a nice waxy feeling to it from being handled in the process. Here's the 50 lubed up next to the Armscor primed cases I picked up earlier in the year.

http://www.pbase.com/baja_traveler/image/138989393.jpg

I used the tip of a pen as a flaring tool to just barely put a flare in the case, then filled the case to the brim with Swiss 4f black powder. A weighing confirms 4.5 grains of 4f as previously reported by W30WCF. The little boolit is then pressed on top and slid into the .225 hole of my Paco Accurizer. I have my Schmidt arbor press adjusted so the stroke is the finished bullet length. A quick ram home seats the boolit and swages the flared case to a tight seal. The Paco tool works really nice for this application, but I need to make a proper plunger so I dont get the dimple on the boolit nose from the Paco Nastinose punch. I had the 50 loaded up in short order ready to be tested. All in all - several hours invested in loading up 50 finished rounds start to finish. Not something you want to run through your 10/22 in 60 seconds, but really nice match ammo I intend to use for the BPCR .22 long range matches at Pala, and I will be the only one there actually shooting a BPCR .22 ...

http://www.pbase.com/baja_traveler/image/138993218.jpg

[6.5 mike]

That's a really nice write up & pics, never thought about loading a .22. What rifle are you shooting these in ? Just what I need, another thing to load for, LOL. :Fire:

[Bloodman14]

Now, THAT'S cool!

[Jon K]

So what are you going to shoot this in? Looks like it's seated out kinda long.

Jon

[tacklebury]

That'd be a fun one to try in my .22 Marlin Muzzle loader conversion. ;)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=128994

[Red River Rick]

Very interesting post Baja!

Thanks for sharing the info and pictures!

RRR

[JeffinNZ]

BAJA - I will be interested to hear how the ignition is with those cases. The "Sterling" brand of ammo has that head stamp and is the cheapest on the market here. Whilst my match chambered rolling blocked shoots amazingly with it about 1 in 10 rounds don't light.

Cool project.

[kokomokid]

Does Mos have a website for his moulds?

[Baja_Traveler]

To answer a few questions, I'l be using a Crossno liner in my Pedersoli Sharps for these (shipped today from BACO).
They feed just fine in my 39a, but just barely stick in the throat so it's a one way trip, as ejecting will pull the bullet from the case. (I managed to do the test carefully and not loose any powder from the case, so the boolit could be re-seated).

No website for David Mos, but HERE (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Black-Jack-Express-Rifles-LLC/100516620058788) is the link to his Facebook page and contact. If you want to order a mold, do it quick - like right now, because he will be shifting over to custom rifles, and when he does that the mold making stops.

My rounds are 35 thousandths taller than the Aguila Match ammo you are using Jon.

http://www.pbase.com/baja_traveler/image/139015190.jpg

[tacklebury]

Not putting you out, but his statement says he'll still do molds too. ;)


After years of creating single shot rifles for private use, they will be making these available to the public in the winter of 2012. And of course custom moulds will still be available.

[John Boy]

The Paco tool works really nice for this application, but I need to make a proper plunger so I dont get the dimple on the boolit nose from the Paco Nastinose punch.Traveler, take a spent primer and fill it with lead. Drop it into the Paco NASTINOSE plunger. When you press down, the nose will not be flattened. I do this with the .225 H&I die

For those that are interested in this 22LR BP project, read these threads ...
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=8512.0
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=8631.0
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=8762.0

[TXGunNut]

Nice lookin' boolits!

[garandsrus]

Very cool... I'm looking forward to seeing how these shoot for you... How do you plan to deal with the fowling, blow tube or patch?

John

[Baja_Traveler]

Very cool... I'm looking forward to seeing how these shoot for you... How do you plan to deal with the fowling, blow tube or patch?

John

W44WCF and John Boy are two of the pioneers in this, and have done some testing shooting multiple rounds without blow tubing or wiping. W44WCF shot 40 rounds without loss of accuracy, and 6 patches to clean using SPG lube. I believe John Boy had fouling issues with Swiss Null B and Alox tumble lubed boolits. I think the lube was determined to be the contributing factor there, but he can correct me if I'm wrong...

I'm going to load up 50 more this weekend, and when my Crossno liner arrives, I'll also do a fouling test with my lube.

All the previous tests were done at 50 yards, which I'll repeat for direct comparison, but I'll also do a side by side comparison of Aguila Match and these BP rounds out to 200 yards (thats the ram distance for the long range .22 match)

[John Boy]

How do you plan to deal with the fowling, blow tube or patch?
John, I have done 2 long shot strings so far:
* 40 rounds using the 225438 Lymans and DuPont FFFFg sieved to 50 mesh - 5 patches to clean. These were lubed with my home brew lube
* 25 rounds using the 225438 Lymans and Swiss Null-B - 9 patches to clean. These were lubed with Alox

You can see the details, targets and patches in this link ...
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=8762.0

[DragoonDrake]

I have a silly question. How do you prime the cases?

[Baja_Traveler]

I have a silly question. How do you prime the cases?

The cases are pre-primed Armscor empty cases that were once available at The Hunting Shack. I picked up a 5000 piece case of them earlier in the year for $95. Unfortunately the few they had appear to be the last, since recent searches show them to not be in the online offering any more.

When I go through these (which may be years from now) I'll either have to convince someone to import them again (maybe even put together a group buy) or just resort to buying Walmart bulk and start pulling for the cases...

[John Boy]

I'll either have to convince someone to import them again (maybe even put together a group buy) I don't know how many boxes ArmsCor had the Hunting Shack selling, but when they started to dry up, I bought the #6 box of 5000.
Then when the supply was gone, I called ArmsCor requesting another import lot of the empty primed cases. Was told - the minimum import order would have to be 500,000 cases (maximum Honcho outlay of $9500). The group buy would have to be 100 folks committing to a box of 5000 or a 1000 folks at 500 pieces

[DragoonDrake]

Thank you Baja

[Baja_Traveler]

Geez! I guess a group buy is out of the question then! No wonder the Hunting Shack stopped carrying them - that's a ton of inventory to sit on for the ~10 of us in the country doing this...

Yes - I will be pulling Federal Bulk from Wally World...

[Lead pot]

A bulk box of the primed cases will last most a lifetime. I been working on mine since the early 80's and I still have more then 1/2 left and I gave a bunch away.
The long range .22 silhouette shooters used these primed cases to get a more powerful long rifle load before the .22 mag was excepted for this type of shooting.
Baja that is a fine looking bullet. Let us know how they shoot.
4 grains of 3F KIK seems to work very good for me with out fouling control.
I give the bullet a light coating of straight lanolin by rolling them over a case lube pad.

[frankenfab]

Now, THAT'S cool!

+1! Really neat.

[John Boy]

I give the bullet a light coating of straight lanolin by rolling them over a case lube pad. Thanks Lead pot for the idea. Pan lubing is a pain and Alox doesn't seem to work well, even though the velocity is less than smokeless.
Believe I'll mix the lanolin with some jojoba oil and mix it with graphite - then roll them. Harry Pope used graphite in his lubes - so why not give it a try too!

[Lead pot]

I tried the graphite all it goes is make a mess.
I would use a very light coating of STP or motor honey straight before using Graphite.

[6.5 mike]

Baja, I have looked at the barrel liners on BACO's site, thought it might be a fun thing, now you really have my interest up. I'll be following your thread to see how well it works.

Was there a reason you picked that one over the Lee Shaver's ?

Also why do you sift the BP ? I know nothing about loading BP other then what I've learned here. This is so KOOL.

[Baja_Traveler]

So went to the range this morning for the big test day - it was packed! No room on the main range, so I was sent up to the pistol range. This limited my testing to only 50 yards this outing - no fancy benches, no sandbags - just my elbows propped on the pistol bench doing my best to stay still.
The first thing I did was insert a ring in the Lyman 17a front sight to match the 50 yard black. That worked awesome to keep me near exact on center. I made no sight adjustments to the williams rear - it started a touch high, so I just left it there.
My first 10 shot group in the upper left was with the Walmart bulk I used to shoot - it works well in this rifle at short range, but gets the occasional flier at 100 yards. Next was the aguila I'm shooting now in the upper right, short range about the same, but it maintains its group out to 100 yards.
Now comes the fun part - I fired 10 fouling shots in the lower right target. They are the ones that tended to string out to the left. Next I reloaded the 39a and placed 10 careful shots for score in the lower left target. I was nearly jumping out of my skin at the result - to say I'm thrilled with the results is an understatement! After that, I shot the remainder of the box back on the right target looking carefully for any accuracy fall off due to fouling. 50 shots and no loss in accuracy at all! I honestly think I could have shot another 50 no problem! Gotta get the pot fired up - next time long range testing at 100 and 200 yards!
Shooting black powder in a .22 is so fun! A nice small puff of black powder smoke - more black powder smoke wafting in my nose when I cycle the action - just like grampa used to experience!
I have to say the lube recipe given to me by an old geezer up at LASC is the best - 1 pound Beeswax, 1/2 pound Lanolin and 1/2 pound Canola Oil - all by weight. Works great in the 45-70, and now great in the .22

http://www.pbase.com/baja_traveler/image/139055253.jpg

[Baja_Traveler]

6.5 Mike -

I picked the Crossno liner over the Lee Shaver because the Lee Shaver uses a little adapter cartridge to put the .22 in, while the Crossno uses a little screwdriver to pick the case out of the chamber (no extractors on either of them). One is just as accurate as the other from what I've read, but the Lee Shaver takes a bit longer to reload because of that adapter. I felt that in a match when you have a certain amount of time to make your shots, the quicker cycle time of the Crossno is a benefit.

I didn't sift any of my powder. I used it straight out of the container as sent by Swiss. The theory of sifting it to get uniform granulations for consistent burn. I feel if you have a compressed load it will burn the same regardless.

[Baja_Traveler]

Cleanup -

It took 9 Hoppe's soaked patches to get the bore clean - all fed with no resistance on the jag start to finish. Another Hoppe's soaked patch wiped around the action with a pair of hemostats showed no fouling at all - which I suspected as there was zero blowby on any of the spent cases I examined.

Now to the pot to cast more!

[John Boy]

Here's how it all started - w44wcf pulled the heads on original UMC 22LR rounds and reloaded them with black powder:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/22bpUMCbulletsreloadedjpg.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/22bpUMCtargetjpg.jpg

Then w44wcf used the Lyman 225438's ...
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/22LRBlackpowder50ydssots51-58.jpg

The I loaded some Lyman 225438's - 40 shots @ 50yds: Stevens Favorite with FAT Beech front sight
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1343.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1362.jpg

Next test, I shot 25 Lyman's @ 50yds: JM Marlin Ballard
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Black%20Powder/22LR%20BP/IMGP1398.jpg

Now it's switch over time with the Mos custom mold of the UMC bullet ... Traveler with the 1st reload targets - W44wcf will be shooting his reloads next week and bringing up the rear: me when my mold arrives!

[6.5 mike]

Thanks guys, now you've really got me thinking about this. This is the most fun thread I've read in awhile. :popcorn:

[John Boy]

Mike, believe that UMC and Peters stopped making BP 22LR's about 1915. That's why w44wcf named this project ... Stepping Back Into Time! :awesome:

[Lead pot]

Back about 1953 I could still buy Peters blk powder .22's for about 11-12 cents a box. The cases were nickel cases not brass at the local Farmers Elevator, plus a lot of less smoke ammo was to be had too.

[6.5 mike]

John Boy, my wife is going to be REAL unhappy with you three,LOL. :2gunsfiring_v1:

[Baja_Traveler]

Just tell her it keeps you off the streets and out of the bars - works for me anyway...

I got into a real casting rhythm yesterday afternoon - cast up 300 more. Lubed and loaded 100 today. The more I load these, the easier it gets as I find little short cuts and make better tools to speed the assembly process up. Today I soldered up a handle to a spent case to make a powder dipper, then used a little gadget intended for pouring medicine in pill caplets to fill the case. I'm getting a good system down.
Now I'm kicking myself for not collecting up used .22 boxes out of the trash cans at the range!

[Taps]

G'day from down-under.
We are just getting into BPCR silhouette here and are yet to shoot a .22 match. Went to a shoot ( RMS ) in Tumut NSW on the week-end and a couple of us took our BPCR guns with Lee Shaver inserts to have a play and show others. We used them in a novelty shoot which was basically CLAS smallbore.

Question- How do you fellas go knocking over the rams at 200m?
Plenty of folks down here are having trouble with them at 100m with their CLAS smallbore rifles.

Taps

P.S. Can someone confirm the distances for .22 BPCR for me please.

[BCall]

This is one of the neatest things I've seen in a while. If there was a way to get primed brass without having to pull bullets from bulk ammo, I would be doing this. Way too cool, too bad the primed brass isn't easier to get.

Taps, I won't swear to the distances for the .22 BPCR, but normal smallbore silhouette that is shot with 22 rimfire uses 1/5 scale targets at 1/5 distances from highpower. Or Chickens - 40m, pigs- 60m, turkeys- 77m, and rams at 100m.

[John Boy]

Can someone confirm the distances for .22 BPCR for me please.

Taps, the NRA 22LR smallbore silhouette distances are:
* Ten Gallina (chicken) targets at 40 meters (or yards).
* Ten Javelina (pig) targets at 60 meters (or yards).
* Ten Guajalote (turkey) targets at 77 meters (or yards).
* Ten Borrego (ram) targets at 100 meters (or yards).


Here's what w44wcf did with these new fangled 22LR reloads can do at 100 meters on the Rams:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/Ram22LRBP2.jpg

Here's the NRA Rule book for Silhouette Matches ...
http://www.vc4hss.com/Air_Rifle/info_docs/NRA_Rifle_Silhouette_Rules.pdf


Question- How do you fellas go knocking over the rams at 200m?
I use a Winchester 30-30 with a Williams receiver site and a Lyman 17A fore sight. A lot of shooters use Marlins

[Baja_Traveler]

The long range match held at Pala uses 1/4 scale targets from the one shown above. The 200 yard ram is only 6-8 inches tall - it is a very tiny target! But it has to be - there is hardly any energy left in a .22 long rifle at that range...

It's not the same match as the usual silhouette shoot normally topping out at 100...

[Baja_Traveler]

Baja, I have looked at the barrel liners on BACO's site, thought it might be a fun thing, now you really have my interest up. I'll be following your thread to see how well it works.

Was there a reason you picked that one over the Lee Shaver's ?

Also why do you sift the BP ? I know nothing about loading BP other then what I've learned here. This is so KOOL.

6.5 Mike -

Just got my liner, and did a test fit. Discovered that my BP rounds stop short of the chamber by over 1/10 inch. Reading the instructions (yea, I admit I did it after the fact) I discovered that these liners are match reamed, and even with regular ammo it is advised to make a push stick out of 3/8 dowel and a cabinet knob to seat the bullet into the rifling with the heel of your hand.

These boolits have a much fatter nose than out of the box stuff, and I felt it would be too much effort to go through that, so I tried my Sharps Camming Tool (http://www.sageoutfitters.com/catalog/item/7185055/8306481.htm). Mine is aluminum and slotted so no contact is made on the primer, but I found if I flipped it over the round can be very easily cammed in with little effort using the smooth side. The plastic one I linked to would work even better I think.

If you go the Crossno route - get one of these also. I pushed the bullet out with a piece of welding rod and found complete breech seated rifling coverage over the whole length of the boolit.

We'll see how it shoots this weekend.

[John Boy]

I pushed the bullet out with a piece of welding rod and found complete breach seated rifling coverage over the whole length of the boolit.
Traveler, sitting on the workbench is a tray of 50 charged primed cases capped with a very thin cardboard wad. In a little clear plastic vial a spent case and a brass rod that will seat the bullets with 1/16" back in the leade .... breech seated rounds when the Mos mold arrives. Shooting 22's this way was never done to my knowledge

FYI, talking with David today, he said don't you live in PA? He shipped my 2x mold to w44wcf and was wondering who gets the single cavity. So I get a free single cavity by Saturday and w44wcf got a free 2x mold per David. When he cuts more blocks, a single goes to John and I get my two 2x molds. We both offered to pay for the erroneous mix-up but he said it's on the house after what we have gone through with the overall orders. Very nice of David

[bigted]

you guys are unreal!!! ive been overlooking this thread for awhile now and dang if i didnt stop in and read the whole thing! thanks alot for the "another" idea to fool with.

this just looks like real fun...i fondly remember my first single-shot winchester .22 and all the huge game i felled with it...[all seems like they had blue feathers tho]...what great memories.

maybe its be time to re-visit my early starting point and pick-up a good 22 for foolin with.

[218bee]

Great post....reloading "special projects" is my main enjoyment to get away from everyday life.
I have a few questions and please excuse me if they have previously been answered in above posts...gettin old.
I assume your alloy is very soft?? any idea 30-1, 20-1 etc?
Using your dipper to fill cases to top? and then seating boolit provides enough powder compression?
Why a barrel liner? Is it for accuracy sake for match shooting or another reason?
I HAVE to give this a try.
If anyone comes across a batch of primed cases please let us know...ME FIRST!
Very cool idea
OH one more question...Is the Lyman die cast a "heeled boolit" as it looks like the MOS does?

[Baja_Traveler]

218Bee - To answer your questions -

I'm using the same alloy that works well for my 30-30 silhouette boolits. It is a BHN of 20.9 - much harder than your off the shelf .22 ammo. In talking with my gunsmith on friday when I was picking up a rifle, he seems to think the combination of bullet hardness and the .225 size is the reason for the great accuracy in my 39a.

I drop 15 pounds of isotope lead in the pot followed by 2 pounds of Lynotype and a touch of tin for good fillout. All my other black powder loads are straight isotope lead, which is right around 20-1 for the stuff I have.

I use the powder dipper to dump a settled charge in the funnel, then tap on the bench to re-settle the load even with the case mouth. Then the bullet compresses it from there. It's just like loading the 45-70 - you can hear that nice crunch sound when the bullet is seated home.

The barrel liner fits in my 45-70 Sharps. It is match reamed and is very accurate. Using the MVA sights makes for a very nice .22 rifle for long range. No reason I cant use my 39a for the match, but given the choice I'll take those expensive MVA sights every time...

Can't answer for the Lyman mould, as I have never used or seen it.

[John Boy]

Traveler, let me jump in if I may ...
* Charging: No muss and fast method... Lee Perfect Powder Measure because it drops 4.5gr more consistently and accurately that all of my other chargers, including the B&M. OK, cut the web off a 223. Put the 22 case into the mouth of the 223 with the web in the charger drop tube. Pull the handle - done with no spilling powder
* Then set the charged cases into a loading tray drilled out using a scrap of Trex decking or a Win 209 primer tray
* Yes, the Lyman 225438 is heeled - 0.215 x 0.125. It is 0.035 too long seated at the heel to be magazine fed reloads. OAL - 0.520 and 46grs @1:30 alloy


If anyone comes across a batch of primed cases please let us know...ME FIRST! Wanna be the Honcho for the 500,000 empty primed cases import by ArmsCor from Aquila?:D

[Baja_Traveler]

JohnBoy - I think I'll have to adopt your idea of charging cases, as I intend on making alot more of these after todays shoot!

Today was our long range silhouette shoot - these are 1/3 size targets at 50, 100, 150 and 200 yards. Bummer is I couldn't use my new Crossno liner. I was concerned of the loose fit before today, but today confirmed that because of the 10 thousandths sloppy fit, it sends rounds all over the place in a 6" diameter - the chickens are not much bigger than an old 50 cent piece, so this just would not do, so out came the 39a.

We started on Turkeys at 150 yards - small, tall and skinny and I didn't do too well as I was still working on finetuning the windage adjustments - only got 4. Rams did a bit better at 200 yards - got 6, and those I missed were very close misses, usually just over the back. Rams are 6" high by 8" long - had those been rabbits sitting out there, they all would have been dead. Chickens - try to hit a 50 cent piece offhand at 50 yards - not easy, but I got 5. Misses were all just low into the rail, and the 5 I hit were smacked by the 43 grain boolit and flung half way up the berm. These little pills are really hard hitting! Finished out on the pigs at 100 yards, and did really well there - they are the same size as the rams and twice as close. Missed the very first one between the legs, but dead centered all the rest.

I shot 65 rounds at practice getting sight settings, then 60 rounds in the match - 20 sighters, and 40 for score for a total of 120 rounds through the 39a (5 rounds through the liner before I retired it) No patching, blowtubing or cleaning of any kind was done, and the group that was on those 100 yard pigs was impressive.

I think the cure for the ill fitting Crossno liner is to turn an O ring groove in the delrin end cap so a lubed up O ring will seat itself in the rifling nice and tight, Why It doesn't come from Crossno like that I have no idea, but I will be making a phone call this week.

[John Boy]

I shot 65 rounds at practice getting sight settings, then 60 rounds in the match - 20 sighters, and 40 for score for a total of 120 rounds through the 39a (5 rounds through the liner before I retired it) No patching, blowtubing or cleaning of any kind was done, and the group that was on those 100 yard pigs was impressive.Traveler, a shot string of these numbers is the largest shot so far by John & myself. ALL 3 of us have had no accuracy degradation with long shot strings. Who would have thought that these little critters won't foul out the bore. I would have bet a $20 that 5 rounds would have been the max before a good blow or a wet patch would be needed.

Congratulations on your match score, especially having to fiddling with the settings on your Marlin. Betcha the bench next to you went ... 'What the frig are you shooting?' There isn't a Schuetzen gallery - silhouette or target shooter alive today that has experienced the smell of sulfurous smoke at a match in nearly a century. And the nice thing, there isn't a word in the NRA rules that says we can't shoot them BP rounds

I've been casting the Lymans soft ... and you are casting hard with accuracy and good foul control. Guess I'll have to go to church with your alloy. John sent me some heads off the old UMC rounds and they were dead soft. He will be interested in your alloy also. What is sad is that empty primed cases are not available which would induce more folks to load these 22's also. Was told by Dave Davidson of CH4D that he was going to make a run of 22LR seating dies & shell holders in 4 - 6 months. Hope this pans out because it would be one less tool needed to make the rounds quickly

PS: The Mos mold should be in my hands the 1st of the week. David said by this Saturday ... but Oh Well!

[Baja_Traveler]

I'm guessing W44WCF didn't get to do any testing this weekend with all the weather back there.

I used your .223 idea, and my RCBS Uniflow drops a nice consistent 4.5 grains of 4f. Not using a dipper will really speed assembly up. I like the 209 primer tray idea also - I found the pockets are tapered on my Winchester trays, so the .22s don't sit flat. I took a 9/32 router bit and chucked it in the drill press to take the taper out of the pockets.
Lubed up 100 more tonight, and have them stacked nicely in a large rifle primer tray ready for loading later this week.

[ss40_70]

i sure wish someone would hide this thread where i cant find it , ive been wanting a .22 liner for a long time and you guys are having way to much fun with this , one thing i am wondering about , any thoughts on velocity compared to standerd .22's

[Jon K]

Baja,

Not to nit-pick...but the targets at Pala re 2/5 size.
Measured and checked all the animals to make sure the scale was consistant thru the course...did this a couple of months ago.

BTW...Good shootin today...you shoulda took pics of the hits to post here.

Jon

[218bee]

Thats really good shooting. Thanks for answering my questions..I saw the Lyman takes a gas check so without it ...it is a "heeled" boolit. I am going to contact David Mos for one of his moulds though. This sounds like a good winter project for me. I am suprised about the limited fouling...but am delighted also to not have to stop and clean...I guess such a small charge of black maybe burns more complete with whatever priming coumpound is used than trying to light 70grs or so.
Very Very cool thread.....thanks for the detailed info.

[Baja_Traveler]

Jon - thanks for the correction on target size. Do you think you can bring out your chrono to next weekends BPCR match? I'll bring the 39a out and see how fast these things are flying - judging from yesterdays sight settings they are not too far off from the aguila.

[John Boy]

Errata Information:

ss40_70 ... Velocity of 40gr smokeless rounds vary. Here is a good comparison of different brands - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4qcixPrzsw
For the BP rounds ...
w44wcf
45gr Lyman 225438 ... 39A, 4.5 grs of SWISS Null B b.p. ignited, propelling the SPG lubed bullet to 1,130 f.p.s.
John Boy
* Aquila 22LR empty primed cases
* 4.2gr old DuPont FFFFg, sieved to 50 mesh
* Lyman 225438 - 46grs - SPG lube
Average Velocity - 915.3 fps
Standard Deviation - 44.8

* Lyman 225438 - 46grs - SPG lube
* 4.2gr Swiss Null-B
AVG - 953 fps
SD - 11.1

218bee ... If you want the David Mos mold, you had better call him quickly, like yesterday @ 479 ... 234 ... 7827 and ask for the KT22LR mold. He is cutting over to making some custom rifles he designed and is going to stop taking orders for molds in the interim

Traveler: I looked at the Win 209 primer trays that I have. The bottoms where the primers fit in are perfectly flat. The trays are thin mould blown black plastic that holds 100 primers. The other tray that I really like is a scrap piece of Trex, 50 drilled holes with a 1/4" Forstner bit - half the height of the case.

John did another project during the week and got home in time to miss the snow storm ... a custom 44-40 Accurate bullet that he tested on the pigs with black powder ... http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=8921.0 He also loaded up some 38 Spl's with BP for the match at Ridgway and did really well ...
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=8914.0
Needless to say, he has been busy testing BP rounds

Until I get the Mos 22 mold, my project that I just completed was prepping 100 old Connecticut Cartridge Co 11.15x58R (43 Spanish) cases for my Argentine RRB. Nice to have brass with the correct head stamp but had to ID ream all the cases to chamber in the rifle. Have some loaded with 75gr FFg KIK (the 2010 lot) loaded for testing. When the Mos 22 bullets are cast, the next test will be shooting them with 4.5gr of the 2010 lot of KIK that I will sieve FFg powder, hopefully to get some 40 or 50 mesh grains

[tacklebury]

Have you guys tried something like this for a dispenser. Drops 4 gr each time. I'm looking at one of these for my .22 Muzzle loader. ;)

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=1&subId=11&styleId=37&partNum=FLASK-PP-4

[John Boy]

tacklebury, don't believe I would use the flint primer charger. The primary reason is
* 4.5gr powder charge needed
* Accuracy of regular charger needed to achieve good Avg fps and SD's

And for the Good of the Order ...

My Mos Mold Arrived Today! :bigsmyl2:

[6.5 mike]

Ya'll are killing me with this stuff. Hummm I do have a stevens favorite I picked up at the last show I went to. Needs some TLC & stocked to fit me but the takedown bbl would be easier to clean, maybe a baby BP scheutzen bench gun. :veryconfu

[John Boy]

Mike, I tested these BP rounds with my Favorite. It has a vernier and a Beech fore sight. Be for warned, the pin head on the Beech is a monster and accuracy will suffer. Go with globe and cross hairs for better accuracy


I drop 15 pounds of isotope lead in the pot followed by 2 pounds of Linotype and a touch of tin for good fill-out.
Traveler, I calculated the Bhn for your alloy mix.
* 15# isotope lead (per Muddy Creek Sam, it's Bhn 10 - 10.5)
* 02# Linotype (Bhn 22)
* 0.5# Tin (Bhn 7)
This alloy mix calculates to Bhn 13.23. Using 1/4# of Sn has a Bhn of 12.99

So, instead of grubbing 5 lbs of lino from my friend, the 1st Mos casting session is going have in the pot - clip on WW that are aged over 5 years having a Bhn 13.5. Then the next session, a batch of 3 parts Lyman #2 and 7 parts pure lead. Why? Because it has been tested and an article written on the test in the BPC News ... that the ogive doesn't slump as much as a Pb:Sn alloy due to the antimony crystalline structure

[6.5 mike]

John, I was thinking more along the lines of a period correct scope, I don't match shoot so can play by my rules, lol. I like the way bearman 56's 25 hornet looks. Just think it would be a riot to set up when the 22 nazis are trying to shoot, then touch off a BP 22. PP'ing the boolit would be even more fun, let them try to figure that out.

[tacklebury]

tacklebury, don't believe I would use the flint primer charger. The primary reason is
* 4.5gr powder charge needed
* Accuracy of regular charger needed to achieve good Avg fps and SD's

And for the Good of the Order ...

My Mos Mold Arrived Today! :bigsmyl2:

True for your target level shooting accuracy may not be exacting enough. ;) I know you can modify the pin size to get it to 4.5 instead of 4. Just looked convenient with the little funnel already built in. I'm probably going to be trying one with the .22 muzzle loader because I'm not doing bench accuracy anyway. Just need minute of squirrel. ;)

[w30wcf]

baja_traveler,
Nice shooting on the 200 meter .22 BPCR course! Neat!

As far as measuring / dispensing powder I use a Lyman 55 and RCBS Uniflow for production ammo and a B&M for lower volume test rounds.

I use .17 caliber funnel under the measure as the pic shows and find that works very well.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/22LRpowderdispenserjpg.jpg

TESTING
I did get a chance to shoot a few groups with the KT22LR bullets from the Mos mold.
I used 4.2 grs of SWISS Null B and after the 1st shot (fouling round) the next 9 grouped into 1 1/4" at 50 yards from my 39A. Alloy was 11 bhn & lube was SPG.

I plan to do more testing of the KT22LR bullet including Swiss 4F, 3F and possibly KIK 3F before winter sets in.


VELOCITIES
Original U.M.C. 40 gr .22 b.p. rounds - 1,009 f.p.s. average
UMC 40 gr bullets / 4.5 Swiss 4F - 1,070 f.p.s. average
UMC 40 gr bullets / 5.0 Swiss 4F - 1,102 f.p.s. average
UMC 40 gr bullets / 5.0 Swiss 3F - 1,020 f.p.s. average

w30wcf

[Baja_Traveler]

After todays BPCR shoot at Pala we set up the chronograph to see how fast my BP rounds are going out of my 39a. I shot 5 fouling shots at the pig silhouette sighter, then 5 shots through the chrono. The 5 shots confirmed the post above and averaged 1, 069 fps (and of course all 10 shots dead centered the pigs impressing everyone in attendance with the accuracy of these rounds)
I have a whole slew of people at the range interested in loading these up. I told all of them that maybe if all of us call The Hunting Shack and ask about availability, they will realize that there is a demand and start carrying them again. Something to think about...

[218bee]

Tried to get ahold of David Mos and he hasnt answered my e-mail to his yahoo adress..also his phone listed above has no voice mail. Maybe Ill have to go with the Lyman for now.

[John Boy]

David has a new shop number ... 479 ... 234 ... 7827

[218bee]

Thanks...all is not lost ..got response from earlier e-mail. Will try and get ahold of him again.
Wonder which mold shoots better so far...Mos or Lyman?? any others worth a try.

[w30wcf]

218bee,
The Lyman 225438 can be made to work but there are a couple of issues with it:
heel diameter - .213-.214 which is oversize for the cases.
oal - when seated - 1.06" OAL which is too long to reliably feed in most rifles

Cases can be flared enough to use the oversized heel but the Mos mold has the correct size heel.
oal - Mos bullet (KT22LR) is 1.00" and feeds fine in the rifles I have tried it in.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

After todays BPCR shoot at Pala we set up the chronograph to see how fast my BP rounds are going out of my 39a. I shot 5 fouling shots at the pig silhouette sighter, then 5 shots through the chrono. The 5 shots confirmed the post above and averaged 1, 069 fps (and of course all 10 shots dead centered the pigs impressing everyone in attendance with the accuracy of these rounds) ...

Baja_Traveler,
Very interesting that the load of 4.5 grs Swiss 4F clocked within 1 f.p.s. from both of our rifles!
Yours - 1,069 f.p.s. / mine - 1,070 f.p.s.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/UMCbp50yards.jpg

GREAT shooting on the silhouettes! Glad to hear that you have other folks interested![smilie=w:

w30wcf

[Lead pot]

I use the 225438 Lyman mould and I'm getting along with it fine with great accuracy, better in the .22 lowall then in the 52 win or the 39 marlin but the accuracy is as good or better then the high end match ammo.
The heal is a little large but it is a benefit. I just bell the case mouth and when I run it in the seating die it closes the case mouth tight on the heal with out a roll crimp like the factory loads have and I cant pull the bullet out with my fingers.

That little round is a little rough to handle while loading it but the results are worth the effort.
The groups shot on the target below was using the .22 Low wall at 50 yards using a Leupold 6.5X20 scope for load development.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_1478.jpg

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1492-1.jpg

[John Boy]

Lead pot, that is one nice group with those Lyman's. Due congratulations goes though to the trigger man!
PS: Are you sure you have enough cast bullets? The stacked trays in the background look as high as Mt Everest! [smilie=s:

[Lead pot]

John.

All those bullets were in preparation for the Alliance and Quigley shoot this year and there are just a few left to keep me from going Daffie this winter. :-)

[218bee]

Lead Pot ...what sizer you using??

[Lead pot]

218, It's home made .225 with a seating and powder compression stem.

I use a .243 sizing die with the depriming stem to flair the case mouth and a .222 depriming stem to compress the powder and that die I seat the bullet and close the flair and size the case mouth and bullet to .225.

[bigted]

lead pot...i missed seeing that you store your boolits IN the lube cake...very cool and i still didnt get this till i read the other post concerning storing lubed boolits...congrats on a very cool idea. do you lube em in the container we see them in?

srry to deviate from the subject.

[Lead pot]

Ted I pan lube them in small meat or bread loaf pans I get at Farm&Fleet. They hold 50 in a cake and 200 in the sealed container from Wal-Mart.
Yes it takes a lot of lube but I make my own lube and I need to store it anyway so it might just as well hold the bullets too.

[Jon K]

Kurt,

Who's & What shellholder is that?

Jon

[Bullet Caster]

Wow, I didn't know you could reload .22 rounds. Now that's impressive.

Bullet Caster

[Lead pot]

Jon.

John at CH-4-D will make you one. He might even make you a complete set of dies or he might even have a set. They used to make dies for reloading .22 rim fire.

[w30wcf]

Lead Pot,

Outstanding group with the 225438! :grin:
What brand of 4F are you using?

I did get the chance recentlky to try the David Mos KT22LR bullet at 100 yards from my 39A Marlin.. I was pretty pleased with the results since the rifle deosn't do quite as well with smokeless ammo at that distance.:grin:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/22BP100yds.jpg

Looking forward to the 2012 Cowboy Silhouette season......

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/Ram22LRBPMos.jpg

w30wcf

[John Boy]

Kurt - John, you fellas with them scopes are 'killing me' with those excellent groups. Just might have to put one on the Henry rifle!:wink:

[Lead pot]

John.

I use 4F goex and mostly 3F KIK now it is working very good in the Win Low Wall.
It is making some of the guys using the green tag and Eley ammo on our range starting to ask questions :smile:

J-B.

One has to improvise when the lamps start to dim on him. :smile:

[w30wcf]

Lead Pot,
Thank you for the information. I bought some 3F KIK recently to try in the 44-40. I ran a pound of it over a 50 mesh screen that John Boy gave to me (Thank you again JB.) and 1 oz of powder went through which would be the equivalent to 4F. I'm going to give that a try in the 22.

Glad to hear that the boys using modern target ammo have taken notice!

w30wcf

[montana_charlie]

When you get your rimfire BPCR ammo assembled, you need 13.8 pouinds of Sharps rifle to shoot it through.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uploads/prodotti/mid/215S.758.jpg

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_215/rifles-1874-sharps-rifle-sharps-bench-rest.html

CM

[John Boy]

Charlie, that Pedersoli 22LR weighs 13.88 lbs. Holy Hanah! I like my old #3 Ballard - 7lb 10oz with vernier & globe

[Baja_Traveler]

Shot a small bore cowboy silhouette match today and shot a 29. Alot of stupid misses on my part and should have done better, but the black powder .22's performed awesome as usual. Got alot of attention as this group of shooters hadn't seen my loads yet. On the first shot the smoke and the lower sounding report of the 39a got everybody's attention.
Lots of local interest in duplicating us, but the lack of primed cases is turning most people off...

[montana_charlie]

Charlie, that Pedersoli 22LR weighs 13.88 lbs. Holy Hanah! I like my old #3 Ballard - 7lb 10oz with vernier & globe
They have two others, John, one lighter and one heavier.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_217/rifles-1874-sharps-rifle-sharps-light.html

and ...

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_218/rifles-1874-sharps-rifle-sharps-scheibenstutzen.html

They are built using Lothar Walther barrels. I'm not a rimfire guy, so ... are those barrels 'special'?

CM

[Lead pot]

That would be a good rifle for off hand practice, but I think I like my light low wall better.

[Hang Fire]

The cases are pre-primed Armscor empty cases that were once available at The Hunting Shack. I picked up a 5000 piece case of them earlier in the year for $95. Unfortunately the few they had appear to be the last, since recent searches show them to not be in the online offering any more.

When I go through these (which may be years from now) I'll either have to convince someone to import them again (maybe even put together a group buy) or just resort to buying Walmart bulk and start pulling for the cases...

If IIRC, years ago I read where the fired .22 rf could be reprimed with a paste primer then let dry, just had to make sure the FP would strike on undented area.

[hrt4me]

thank you for sharing!

I have been looking for these so I can fire my original Colt 1871 Open Top Pocket Model Revolver