Ultra Dot 6 test

[44man]

I shot my loads today at 50 yards. It's a neat sight, standby for some results.

[saz]

Is that the Matchdot II, or the ultradot 6 tactical one?

[44man]

Is that the Matchdot II, or the ultradot 6 tactical one?
Ultra Dot 6. Now the amazing thing was that I shot a 15/16" group at 50 yards with the 4 minute dot.
Something I have never figured out, why I get such good groups with the large dots.
Now the screwiest thing is that I shot a Bisley Hunter. I need a glove for it because of my knuckle.
I was having poor groups with factory loads using the LP mag primers so I used my loads with the Fed 150. Same type boolit, same velocity. More proof to me that a .44 case is too small for mag primers.

[Whitworth]

More proof to me that a .44 case is too small for mag primers.

Yet most manufacturers of .44 Mag ammo use mag primers. Why is that?

[44man]

Yet most manufacturers of .44 Mag ammo use mag primers. Why is that?
Federal does not use them any longer. Their .44 mags use a 150 primer. Better accuracy. Did they read my posts? Who knows.
I have used the 150 since the early 80's and all through years of IHMSA.
Is it because the manuals say to use a mag primer or is it experience?
All of my loads for the .44 that you use are with a 150 primer.
Your Bisley Hunter will do UNDER 1/2" at 50 yards so you need to show that the factory loads can do that. Good luck with that! :kidding:
If this gun was a hog leg, I might get it to 1/4"---HEE HEE!
You have NEVER rejected a single load of mine for any gun but you question me, why?

[Whitworth]

Federal does not use them any longer. Their .44 mags use a 150 primer. Better accuracy. Did they read my posts? Who knows.
I have used the 150 since the early 80's and all through years of IHMSA.
Is it because the manuals say to use a mag primer or is it experience?
All of my loads for the .44 that you use are with a 150 primer.
Your Bisley Hunter will do UNDER 1/2" at 50 yards so you need to show that the factory loads can do that. Good luck with that! :kidding:
If this gun was a hog leg, I might get it to 1/4"---HEE HEE!
You have NEVER rejected a single load of mine for any gun but you question me, why?

Actually, I know of at least one Federal load that is using mag primers. What about the other manufacturers??

[44man]

Actually, I know of at least one Federal load that is using mag primers. What about the other manufacturers??
It does not mean they are correct. I suppose 30 below zero outside might need a hotter primer so they need to allow for all conditions.

[Whiterabbit]

Ultra Dot 6. Now the amazing thing was that I shot a 15/16" group at 50 yards with the 4 minute dot.
Something I have never figured out, why I get such good groups with the large dots.

I like what someone local said once, something along the lines of "put a quarter on the hillside and very few people would be able to hit it. Tape it to the middle of an NRA style target and any reasonable shooter would be able to knock it out within a couple shots."

I suspect shooting at a nice target is helping group with the large dot.

An epiphany I had the other day was that my leupold rifle scope has a rather substantial dot in the middle of the crosshairs. Could be about 4" at 100 yards (maybe larger), a project I have is to measure that in the near future sometime. That rifle is capable of shooting 1 hole groups at 100 yards. That realization taught me that there was no need for a <4moa dot for the red dot I would like to install on my BFR.

[44man]

Exactly. The 4 minute dot looks very small on the side of a deer too.

[Whiterabbit]

oh, I asked another question but it got lost when I had to retype that post above.

44man, how do you like the 4moa dot vs dot in circle? Or more specifically, what are your thoughts concerning dot in circle (with regards to hunting): great addition that will make hunting easier, useful feature though dot alone is more than good enough, or just a gimmick?

[44man]

oh, I asked another question but it got lost when I had to retype that post above.

44man, how do you like the 4moa dot vs dot in circle? Or more specifically, what are your thoughts concerning dot in circle (with regards to hunting): great addition that will make hunting easier, useful feature though dot alone is more than good enough, or just a gimmick?
Maybe the circle will let you pick up the dot faster, the speed has never been needed tough.

[Whiterabbit]

in that case, what does the ultradot 6 do that makes it a "must have" compared to the other ultradots?

[Whitworth]

in that case, what does the ultradot 6 do that makes it a "must have" compared to the other ultradots?

I really like the 2 moa dot.

[44man]

in that case, what does the ultradot 6 do that makes it a "must have" compared to the other ultradots?
More money or better for speed shooting. Those steel shooters like large dots. ice to able to choose.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Looking at the user manual, the UD6 is 1/2 MOA per click and the MD2 is 1 MOA per click.

As to dot size, my experience is the smaller the dot and the closer it is in size to a point (and the brighter it is), the more imperfections in my eyes and glasses (surface defects, lens interior defects, uncorrected astigmatism, etc) show up as glare spikes, making it harder to identify the center of the dot.

[44man]

Looking at the user manual, the UD6 is 1/2 MOA per click and the MD2 is 1 MOA per click.

As to dot size, my experience is the smaller the dot and the closer it is in size to a point (and the brighter it is), the more imperfections in my eyes and glasses (surface defects, lens interior defects, uncorrected astigmatism, etc) show up as glare spikes, making it harder to identify the center of the dot.
True, some can NOT use them. My friend sees a star. Spikes going all over.
Now clicks on a revolver NEVER follow what the paper says. Sighting in is hit and miss until you get to where you need. Barrel length is the trouble. I have yet to see any of them follow clicks.

[subsonic]

Still waiting for the results?

[fecmech]

As to dot size, my experience is the smaller the dot and the closer it is in size to a point (and the brighter it is), the more imperfections in my eyes and glasses (surface defects, lens interior defects, uncorrected astigmatism, etc) show up as glare spikes, making it harder to identify the center of the dot.

When shooting groups I find that a dim dot gives much better definition for smaller groups. When doing that kind of shooting I turn the brightness down so you're almost looking "through" the dot and I use black target circles larger than the dot to center it in.

[JesterGrin_1]

I went to the UltradotUSA web site and could not find an Ultradot 6?

I did see the Add for the Ultradot 6 on the Home page but it just says coming soon.

I found it at Ultradot West http://www.ultradotwest.com/ultradot_2008_009.htm

I just wish they made them with some magnification.

[44man]

I posted the picture before but here it is again. I was doing a primer test between the LP mag and the Fed 150.
One group is under 1/2" but the top one had a high shot from a sandbag glitch, my fault and I felt it, making it 15/16" or actually closer to 1". I just looked at it.
You can clearly see the outside targets with a mag primer were much larger.

[44man]

Would you believe I shot these groups with Whitworth's Bisley Hunter? :mrgreen:
I needed a glove! :roll: With enough control it will shoot under 1/2" at 50 yards.
I class the Hunter right next to a SRH for accuracy.
Of course, you might need my loads! [smilie=1: Mine are right close to the factory loads tested, same style boolit, almost the exact same velocity. The difference is the primer used.
I sound like a broken record but years and years of testing always shows the same thing no matter what bullet/boolit is used.
I still can't wrap my head around making a Bisley shoot like that! :coffee:

[kelbro]

My Bisley Hunter shoots like that with a Leupold on it :) and I think that it is one of your loads that I'm doing it with. The 310gr Lee bullet. I plan to try my Ultradot on it soon.

[subsonic]

Now clicks on a revolver NEVER follow what the paper says. Sighting in is hit and miss until you get to where you need. Barrel length is the trouble. I have yet to see any of them follow clicks.

I don't have enough experience with handguns with optics to say that this isn't true, but the reason doesn't sound plausible. By moving the erector in the optic with the adjustments you are only changing the angle in relation to the barrel, which should have nothing to do with barrel length the way iron sights would.
I have had many inexpensive scopes that the clicks are not true on or that wouldn't even move sometimes when adjusting them. I don't own any of those anymore. Haven't played with the Ultra-Dot clicks yet - waiting for MR to send my .475 back still.....

The friction adjustments in my 2.5-8x Leupy were pretty closeish. No clicks, so I can't say for sure, just hash marks at 1MOA intervals that seemed to work.

[subsonic]

Would you believe I shot these groups with Whitworth's Bisley Hunter? :mrgreen:

Yes. Bisleys are the best!:drinks::takinWiz:

[44man]

I don't know what it is but I have the biggest problems sighting any red dot. None of them follow what adjustments are supposed to be.
I never had one on a rifle so I don't know.
These things need played with to work them in but once there they stay there.
The diode stays fixed and the tube moves with the prizm in front where the beam is seen. How much barrel length affects it?????
The back of the tube is what moves and the front is mounted in rubber so it could act like open sights. The glass does not move back and forth much at all, it shifts angle more.
The red dots do not move the picture like a scope.
You just have to get used to them. If you measure holes with a ruler and add that many clicks you will never get it right.

[Whitworth]

I don't know what it is but I have the biggest problems sighting any red dot. None of them follow what adjustments are supposed to be.
I never had one on a rifle so I don't know.
These things need played with to work them in but once there they stay there.
The diode stays fixed and the tube moves with the prizm in front where the beam is seen. How much barrel length affects it?????
The back of the tube is what moves and the front is mounted in rubber so it could act like open sights. The glass does not move back and forth much at all, it shifts angle more.
The red dots do not move the picture like a scope.
You just have to get used to them. If you measure holes with a ruler and add that many clicks you will never get it right.

Actually we did play with an Ultradot 30 on my .416, remember?

[44man]

Actually we did play with an Ultradot 30 on my .416, remember?
Yes, but I don't remember how the clicks acted. It took little to get it in that I remember. It shot great too.
But with so many guns shot here and no records kept, plus my old age, you need to refresh things.

[subsonic]

Doing my research a bit here (looking at getting another UD of some sort) and found out some stuff about the UD 6 and MDII. First, here is the manual .pdf from the website:
http://www.ultradotwest.com/ultradot%206%20series%20manual.pdf

Looks like the main difference between the two is the 37mm OBJ, and the UD6 is 1/2MOA on elevation and the MDII is 1MOA on the elevation.

I asked if they were going to put that elevation dial on the regular UD30 and they said "NO". :(

I don't really want the 37mm objective, but I'm not too hot on 1MOA elevation either. I could care less about having the dot change sizes. I may just get a UD25 because I found them on sale for $139 somewhere and I just want this "OTHER" UD to have as a slave for testing purposes to rule out my eyes.

[Whiterabbit]

Sounds like the 25 is the better bargain. That the rest of it is a bonus as a toy to play with.

On the other hand, if you really liked one of those toy features, whatever UD you have now would become the tester slave.

In my mind, it wouldn't be a question of the lesser of 2 evils, but the question of is XXXX as a toy (no preplanned practical purpose) worth the $70 (or whatever it is) cost difference between that and the UD25?

[subsonic]

My "perfect" UD would be a UD30 with a micrometer style 1/2minute elevation. I really like that option because I shoot further than 25yds.

[Whiterabbit]

dumb question. When the dot is 4 inches across and we are shooting pistol, does a 1/2 click make a difference beyond 50 yards (vs 1moa click)? I'd understand if it was a magnified scope, but my eyes have a hard time distinguishing 1/2" of dot position at 100 yards.

[subsonic]

Yes, it matters. Your eye can center that 4"dot inside a slightly larger circle better than you think.

You can also sight the gun so that the impact is on the edge of the dot at the range you are shooting. Your eye will do almost as well putting an edge to another edge as it does centering a circle.

[subsonic]

The further away the target is the more it matters too. 1moa is about 3" @300yds. So if your minimum click is 1moa and you are 2" off at 300yds (a far strech for a handgun, but not an AR15), then you adjust and the next click puts you 1" off. Which is the best you can do.

The army use to use a Leupold sniper scope that had 1moa turrets. Not really a big deal when your targets usually measure 18"x72" and are expected to be inside 800yds. Makes for less clicks to count and easier math too.

[44man]

My best varmint scopes had 3/16" to 1/4" per click but they were right on. I seen many scopes on rifles that did not follow what the paper said.
I got the habit of adjusting and recording the movements. I put a paper in the scope cap with the movements. Most times the elevation was different from windage.
Red dots are a real challenge. I found that you just need to play with them to get centered.
Scope adjustments are 100% based on screw thread movement but it does not always follow.
Now a small tube moved up or down, will also move POI sideways. You are off center on the tube. Move windage and POI can move up or down too. You are again off center on the tube.
Put 5 clicks of windage on and you are also moving elevation.
All adjustments are based on the pad on dead center of the tube. That is not the real world.
The very best adjustments were OUTSIDE the scope on rings. The larger diameter of the outside tubes worked better.
Maybe the tubes inside a scope should be SQUARE so the pads don't follow a curve.
I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

[bearcove]

How did the Ultradot 6 compare to the Ultradot 30. I'm gonna get one for christmas probably. For my BFR.

I give the wife a very short list.

[Frank]

One problem with the 34mm sight is there are no good rings like Warne. So that leaves the 24, the 30 and the MD's. The 24 and the 30 don't have 2 moa dots. So now it boils down to which Matchdot. That depends on if the click system with the MDII is improved. If it's the same as the MD1, then don't get it. These red dots don't click precise by any means. Dials on the outside will be just a gimmick. Better keep them sealed and never have to touch the adjustment.

[subsonic]

The UD6 is 30mm on the tube. 37mm at the front objective only - it steps up like a rifle scope.

My UD30 seemed to follow the clicks. I'll box test it after hunting season if it's not too cold.

[Frank]

subsonic:

The UD6 is 30mm on the tube. 37mm at the front objective only - it steps up like a rifle scope.
That reduces ring spacing. May not fit any mount available. Does your mount have that many slots to choose from? It weighs more also.

[bearcove]

Sounds like no improvement just more features. I don't mind one dot size. or one reticle type and, cheaper with less moving parts hopefully = more reliability.

Ultradot 30 still best choice for me, I think.

Those heads-up red dot sure look cool though.

[subsonic]

More than likely I'll also go with another UD30. For similar reasons. I'd like to play with the elevation dial on the others, but the odds of it being repeatable don't look good.

Jim, if you have the UD6 there still, will you give us a test of the elevation dial? Just shoot 3, dial it up 10moa and shoot the other 3. Then dial back down 10 and repeat. Could be 50yds or 100yds for the test, as long as the target is big enough.

[44man]

More than likely I'll also go with another UD30. For similar reasons. I'd like to play with the elevation dial on the others, but the odds of it being repeatable don't look good.

Jim, if you have the UD6 there still, will you give us a test of the elevation dial? Just shoot 3, dial it up 10moa and shoot the other 3. Then dial back down 10 and repeat. Could be 50yds or 100yds for the test, as long as the target is big enough.
OK but I need time. I have to go today and buy steel roofing for my barn. The storm broke limbs and branches that poked holes in the aluminum roof.
Then the solar water heater leaked and I removed all that junk to find my hot water tank is also leaking so I have to replace it too.
I borrowed a trailer and need to see if I have a 2" ball for it.
Two weeks work up to now and not near done and hunting season is getting close.
Maybe Whit can get out to shoot some.

[subsonic]

Understood. Running out of time over here too. Truck plates are due among other things...

[44man]

Home Depot shows roofing for $19 BUT THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A RACK FOR IT. All is painted at $38+. No way so I just got the water tank. Took all day to finish.
I found some at 84 Lumber for $21 so it means another trip. It is going to rain soon. I might have to put a tarp on the roof.

[subsonic]

Bummer. Hope you can find what you need.

[44man]

I got an idea to tape the holes before the rain. I think I have some 500 mph aircraft tape around here.
I do have some pit tape too.

[fecmech]

I think I have some 500 mph aircraft tape around here.
I do have some pit tape too.

Doesn't everyone? Just thought you'd get a laugh out of it.

[44man]

Doesn't everyone? Just thought you'd get a laugh out of it.
That's great! [smilie=w:
My stuff was too old so I wound up using duct tape! :coffee: