question regaurding speed vs. stability

[drklynoon]

I am having a blast shooting my .45 old model Ruger vaquero and have been wanting to stretch it out to 50 yards. At 20 yards I am holding really tight groups but when I back out to 50 It's not looking so good. I am using a 240 gr swc backed with 6.0 gr's of trailboss. I forget the exact speed but it was around 800 fps. Is there a possibilty that I am running into a bullet stability issue or do I just need alot more practic lol. She is going from about 3/4 of an inch at 20 to about 8 inches at 50. I am a pretty seasoned shooter but haven't done much handgun work out side of 25 yards. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks guys,
Nathan

[subsonic]

Are the holes in the targets round at 50yds?

[drklynoon]

It's not key holeing it's just opening way up. If it was keyholeing then I would know for sure.

[Swede44mag]

I would check out the cylinder throats I had to buy a throat reamer for my .45 old model Ruger Vaquero from Brownells they were smaller than the bore.

[drklynoon]

My throats are about .005 larger than the bore. While that isn't perfect it has been working with speeds like I mentioned above. I just don't understand why it's opening up so much. If it was inaccurate at 25 then I would question my bullet and load and well everything but to be accurate at 25 and then go south at 50 just doesn't make sense to me. I'm going to try and take myself out of the picture this weekend and set up a target at 50 behind my 25 and see how big it prints. If it is truely under an inch at 25 but 8 inches at 50 then something is way wrong. I have pretty decent eyes and was not having trouble with my sight picture but I could have an uknown grip problem or follow through issue.

[subsonic]

It's hard to say for sure, but opening up that much is a prpblem. If you can hold 3/4" at 20yds, you should at least be in 3" at 50yds unless something is mechanically wrong.

Make sure you are not focussing on the target at 50yds, but rather the sights (front sight) as the trigger releases.

[drklynoon]

That was my thinking. On the bench at 50 I shold be able to hold 3". My sight picture was fine. If it's me I'm thinking it's a follow through problem. I don't choke the grip of my gun down so it does roll ( I know I will be blasted for that lol) maybe that is were I am getting some of this inconsistancy from. I am still unsure about wheather my load is hot enough or not.

[white eagle]

Try turning up the heat on your charge a bit that may be the culprit
but 50 is a long way and it can intimidate some

[drklynoon]

LOL it is a bit intimidating with the handgun, short site radius and all.

[Matthew 25]

If you can find or make a target that is proportionally twice as large as your 20y target, I'd do that. Sometimes the shape and size of your bullseye/target will play much too large a role in iron sighted groups.

[drklynoon]

I am using a different target at the 50 yard. The burris targets I use at 25 are too shiny and hard to see at 50 so I have been using the old 10" style with an large orange dot. I can pick up the unfocused orange dot in my sight picture pretty well. I may have a aim samll miss small issue with the larger orange dot.

[Iron Mike Golf]

My throats are about .005 larger than the bore.

How do the throats compare to the groove diameter?

Have you shot intermediate ranges between 25 and 50 yds?

[drklynoon]

No Mike I haven't shot in between distances. My cylinders are .005 over groove diamter. I didn't really specify that did I. my groove diamter is .451 and cylinder is .4515 I'm sizing my bullets .452.

[MtGun44]

Something is inconsisetent. You say the groove is .451 and cylinder is .4515, and then say
that this is .005 over. As you wrote it, it is .0005 over. .005 over would be .456.

I expect you just dropped a zero, but you did it twice, so I am wondering. If you have .456
throats, and .452 boolits, that is not good.

Which is correct?

Bill

[drklynoon]

lol. thanks I didn't notice that till you pointed it out. .0005 larger throats. Silly placeholders.

[44man]

That was my thinking. On the bench at 50 I shold be able to hold 3". My sight picture was fine. If it's me I'm thinking it's a follow through problem. I don't choke the grip of my gun down so it does roll ( I know I will be blasted for that lol) maybe that is were I am getting some of this inconsistancy from. I am still unsure about wheather my load is hot enough or not.
Yup, "roll" can cause two things. Vertical dispersion and a loose hold will let torque change the gun position before boolit exit too much.
Try holding the gun very tight.
You could also be running too slow for the twist too.
240 gr is pretty light with a short drive length. Your Vaquero should have a 1 in 16" twist, better for 250 gr and up. Seems like it should shoot though, just see what happens if you speed it up.
I can't give a good answer because I shoot heavy boolits from mine for deer and my lightest is 255 gr.
If you are using bulk boolits with a bevel base, that shortens the drive length too.
Then, how hard are they? I found the semi wad cutter needs to be much harder in my guns. Water dropped, WW, 255 gr boolits are center of can for me at 50 yards using 7 gr of Unique.
335 gr boolits have done 1" at 75 yards with 21.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer. That load is so nasty I had to get Pachmeyer grips! :bigsmyl2::holysheep Fine in the old Vaquero but I would never do that in the new ones.
I am willing to bet the load might be OK but it is your hold. That is why I never shoot 25 yards, I start at 50.

[John Ross]

It sounds like you've checked all the right things, and anyone who can shoot 3/4" inch groups at 25 yards off the bench should be able to do MUCH better than 8" at 50 yards. Eight inches is what I would expect at 150-200 yards from a gun and shooter capable of 3/4" at 25.

Upping the velocity a bit might work and won't cost anything. If that doesn't work, try a different bullet (and load) that is KNOWN to shoot well at longer ranges. Some bullets that shoot very well at 25 yards go to hell at longer ranges, even though the holes are still round, and no, I haven't figured out why...

Your idea of shooting at 25 yards with a second piece of paper at 50 yards is EXCELLENT and should tell you a lot.

[Ed K]

I know speed is a basic requirement but something I've always found a little confusing is the way so many knock the slow twist of the Freedom arms model 83 in 454 - stating that it needs to be run flat out for accuracy. Flat out I do not always want but in a revolver that size lets' say I look to a minimum of no less than 1050-1100fps.

Then I hear of the outstanding accuracy reported with the model 97 in 45 Colt at velocities of 750-900fps and guess what? It has the same twist!

I don't know that twist is as critical as some claim.

[45 2.1]

Is there a possibilty that I am running into a bullet stability issue or do I just need alot more practic lol. She is going from about 3/4 of an inch at 20 to about 8 inches at 50. I am a pretty seasoned shooter but haven't done much handgun work out side of 25 yards. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys,Nathan

You need practise................ Most seasoned handgunners have shot well past 300 yards and can hit a gallon jug at that distance fairly consistently with stock normal production handguns. Most can hit pop cans at 100 yds. Your Vaquero has fixed sights that probably aren't that well defined. About 5000 rounds will get you better prepared to do better shooting. An end of a pop can is a respectable target at 50 yards. Sit down with the handgun and put it between your knees..... aim carefully and give it a try......

[44man]

I know speed is a basic requirement but something I've always found a little confusing is the way so many knock the slow twist of the Freedom arms model 83 in 454 - stating that it needs to be run flat out for accuracy. Flat out I do not always want but in a revolver that size lets' say I look to a minimum of no less than 1050-1100fps.

Then I hear of the outstanding accuracy reported with the model 97 in 45 Colt at velocities of 750-900fps and guess what? It has the same twist!

I don't know that twist is as critical as some claim.
It is only that the slower twist will do better with a lighter boolit. As you make the boolit heavier it needs more velocity to spin up and a faster twist can spin up a boolit at a lower velocity.
An example is the .475 Freedom that just loves around 350 gr bullets but the BFR doesn't even start good until 400 gr. Twist rates.
The Freedom .454 and .45 both have 1 in 24" twists and work fine with lighter bullets but heavier bullets need to be shot much faster. Sometimes faster then pressures allow.
You fail to see the Vaquero can be accurate but loads need to be worked to see where it is accurate as with any other gun. You just can't pick one load from a book.
The Freedom is the same, loads need to be worked. Groups can be the same from both but I bet the powders and velocities will not be the same.
There was a great article from our own Mike about reloaders and handloaders.
I have no answer for you but the 240 might be better shot SLOWER and only you can find out.
Just never ignore twist, it is the most important part of your gun.

[Ed K]

It is only that the slower twist will do better with a lighter boolit. As you make the boolit heavier it needs more velocity to spin up and a faster twist can spin up a boolit at a lower velocity.

...

Just never ignore twist, it is the most important part of your gun.


Oh, I don't ignore twist. On the contrary I do pay attention. That's why when some say to me that getting a 300gr WFN to be accurate @ 1100 in the '83 is a hopeless cause and then the next thread is about someone shooting one-hole groups with a RCBS 270SAA boolit (280gr) @ 800fps in their '97 with the same twist it boggles the mind.

[drklynoon]

44 man I messed up my bullet weight. ughhh I was tired anyway the bullet that I am using is a W/D W/W 255 grain 452424 Lyman. I make sure they are aged at least two weeks before I load them. I know how you feel about the grip but to be honest, when I do that it really gets me shaking during a cylinder. After about three rounds I pick up a bit of a shake and it lowers my POI about an 1 at 25. The vaquero sites are hard to compensate for the elevation change. I know it's an inaccurate habit and I need to work on it for sure. I'll try your unique load once I get 50 empties. Hopefully that will help.

[drklynoon]

Thanks jon I think I should be doing better as well. I'm going to try 44 mans unique load. Hopefully that'll work.
.45 2.1 Anybody that can hit the end of a coke can at a hundred yards with Vaquero sights has some kinda super powers. I have good eyes and keeping a sight picture at 300 yards sounds pretty amazing to me. I have only put about a 1000 rounds through this gun so practice is definatley a needed aspect though.

[44man]

44 man I messed up my bullet weight. ughhh I was tired anyway the bullet that I am using is a W/D W/W 255 grain 452424 Lyman. I make sure they are aged at least two weeks before I load them. I know how you feel about the grip but to be honest, when I do that it really gets me shaking during a cylinder. After about three rounds I pick up a bit of a shake and it lowers my POI about an 1 at 25. The vaquero sites are hard to compensate for the elevation change. I know it's an inaccurate habit and I need to work on it for sure. I'll try your unique load once I get 50 empties. Hopefully that will help.
That is a good boolit.
Yes, don't hold to the shake point but just below it. Tight only, no quivers. Just stop the "roll" in the hand. Do the same with light or heavy loads. I like Pachmeyer grips that will not slide on me. With wood panels I put my little finger under the grip. Don't get a finger between a sandbag though! :drinks:

[drklynoon]

Yeah I have those fake ivory grips on mine. My hands aren't quite big enough for the pinky under. I do have a bit of my palm meat under the grip. That part gets pinched pretty durn hard after 50 rounds or so. I also balance my left index finger under the trigger gaurd. I don't know how you feel about that but it does seem to add some stability to my grip. What do you recommend for the Point of impact change due to the lack of muzzle rise?

[Groo]

Groo here
The key is to shoot the same-- trigger, sights ,grip etc...
A single action is harder to hold the same as the grip has no stop [ backstrap hump]
to hold your hand..
The pinky under the grip hold sets your hand in the same place,like some aftermarket grips that fill the space behind the trigger guard and give you a shelf to sit on..
Although my gun does not roll I do allow the gun to rise [ aka Run]
As long as you do things the same your groups will show.

[drklynoon]

I have a fairly repeatable grip due to the amount of my palm that hangs over. It just doesn't feel right if it isn't right. I do agree with .44 man because well I know he is right. When the gun rolls it isn't absolutley repeatable that and if you hold the gun tight then you hold it with the same tightness each time. I haven't changed my grip style in the past because I didn't need to I have had great success at shorter distances but now I am going to have to relearn some things to complete a goal.

[44man]

Yeah I have those fake ivory grips on mine. My hands aren't quite big enough for the pinky under. I do have a bit of my palm meat under the grip. That part gets pinched pretty durn hard after 50 rounds or so. I also balance my left index finger under the trigger gaurd. I don't know how you feel about that but it does seem to add some stability to my grip. What do you recommend for the Point of impact change due to the lack of muzzle rise?
Meat under the grip will hurt and make you start to flinch. I set my grip on a firm bag and the front of the barrel on a small bag, just keep the muzzle ahead far enough so you don't shoot the bag. Ask how I know! :grin: The rear bag must have near the same tension shot to shot or shots will string.
I have tried every single way from the frame on a bag, wrists on a bag and everything recommended but this is still best to hold still. Some calibers will still be on when shot off hand but some need sighted different for hunting. My .44 needs sighted from Creedmore but my .475 is right on. I never sight in any gun off hand, I chase my butt all over!
Once you get the hang of it, you can call a shot before looking at the target and you will call shots from off hand. You will feel a difference in barrel rise or torque. It is best to ignore those shots when you know it was you.
A handgun is 100% recoil and barrel rise affected. That is why you need to control your hold and never let the gun do what it wants.
I use both hands on the grip from bags but the heavy kickers will leave my left hand, can't be held. That might be why they shoot the same off hand. Yet I dare not shoot at a deer with one hand with the big bores or I will shoot way over. I need both hands and I need to tell myself to "hold tight." The .44 is no problem with one hand and I have shot many deer that way when they come on the wrong side. The .475? NO WAY! Aim at the ground! 8-)
I can't explain what I do so just keep even pressure on the grip, even pressure on bags, NEVER let the sight move as you reach the trigger break and learn to read how the gun reacts from shot to shot.

[drklynoon]

I can tell most of my"flyers" that just comes from experience. I only use one bag under my hands. I rest on my guide hand ie left and do have hang over with my right. I have been shooting off of a gun case lately and have just bought a new bag so I shouldn't have too much problems with the pinch. That and I am not shooting really heavy loads in the ol girl. I cant wait to get to the range this weekend and get some practice in.

[drklynoon]

Well with a new rest bag and alot of concentration I narrowed my 50 yard group to 4" I changed my grip a little and was staying completely focused on keeping my sight picture. I had some larger groups but I did about 4 out of 8 at 4" some where close one was just plain huge. The amount of concentration it takes for me to shoot open sighted acuratley at that range is amazing but I am enjoying myself. I loaded up the next day and can't wait to get down there next weekend,oh and some guy showed up at the range and dumped 100 rounds of federal .45 colt right next to me and left his brass, that was a great score thanks go out to the employer of that guy.

[subsonic]

Longer range shooting with iron sights, especially vaquero type sights, is very hard. There is only so much your eyes can focus on. A relatively large, well contrasting aiming point that allows for good alignment with the sights really helps. Your 4" groups are pretty good at 50yds!

[drklynoon]

I am using some walmart winchester tragets the have a large orange dot on a black back gound. They are the best I've tried so far. I use a burris target up close

[44man]

I pull my teeth with open sights from bags! [smilie=l: They are too close to my eyes so I shoot Creedmore.

[drklynoon]

Creedmore? I am unfamiliar with the term.

[44man]

Creedmore? I am unfamiliar with the term.
Lay on your back with knees up and touching. Put your left arm behind your head with fingers on the ground. Rest your head on your arm. Lay the barrel on the side of your leg, hand and butt against your thigh, elbow on the ground.
3 points of contact.
For a revolver YOU NEED A BLAST SHIELD ON YOUR LEG. The cylinder gap can hurt you. I use a thick rubber one or a piece of cargo belting with a strap over my knee.
Put a pad or something under your elbow or it will get rug burn.
MAKE SURE THE MUZZLE IS OUT PAST YOUR LEG!

[drklynoon]

Ok I know what your talking about now. I use a form of that when I don't have a bench to shoot off of. I think I learned it out of an old guns and ammo or rifleman.

[tuckerdog]

try picking a spot within a spot and dont take your eyes off your point of aim for a second after you trip the hammer. form sight picture follow thru does not only apply to archery. When shooting long distance with my 243 I tape a bb to the stock so it just touches the top of my cheek for more consistant cheek weld. something similar may help index your grip a little better.