Wow, Lead is below 90¢ a lb

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Wow, today's Market price is below 90¢ a lb.

and Tin is down to $10 a lb as of last friday.
Jon

[Oreo]

Its been hanging around $0.90/lb for quite a while now.

[beex215]

hopefully it becomes worthless

[P.K.]

This is a good thing. Now if I could just find that warehouse full of old lino machines.....

I know, better luck finding the holy grail....

[Marlin Junky]

Wow, today's Market Lead price is below 90¢ a lb.

I guess now is the time to buy, if you know a honest scrapper with a supply.
OR
will it go lower ?
Jon

I would expect it to go lower since Asia is not buying as much as they have been. Late '08 to early '09 it was about 1/2 buck per pound.

MJ

[9.3X62AL]

Scrappers? Lower their prices? On "strategic metals" (scrapper-talk, equates to E-Bay "rare"/"antique")? I'm not holding my breath.

I wait to see which direction Rotometals' prices take as the lead and tin prices slowly march downward. From such indications we can get an idea of their business model and its view of customer relationships--that is, as necessary and valued business elements, or as suckers to be fleeced and exploited.

And NO, I'm not interested in hearing from some company spokeshole with some lawyer-drafted policy statement. Save that. I'll be watching the website and its prices of the metals I use to pursue this hobby. Do the right things, and I'll be a customer. Act like buccaneers, then fuggetaboutit.

I suppose this post will serve as a litmus test for this site's management, too. If an advertiser's revenues mean more than the views of a member, the post will disappear. If the post remains, the site is concerned with fairness to all parties involved.

[evan price]

Scrappers? Lower their prices? On "strategic metals" (scrapper-talk, equates to E-Bay "rare"/"antique")? I'm not holding my breath.

I wait to see which direction Rotometals' prices take as the lead and tin prices slowly march downward. From such indications we can get an idea of their business model and its view of customer relationships--that is, as necessary and valued business elements, or as suckers to be fleeced and exploited.

And NO, I'm not interested in hearing from some company spokeshole with some lawyer-drafted policy statement. Save that. I'll be watching the website and its prices of the metals I use to pursue this hobby. Do the right things, and I'll be a customer. Act like buccaneers, then fuggetaboutit.

I suppose this post will serve as a litmus test for this site's management, too. If an advertiser's revenues mean more than the views of a member, the post will disappear. If the post remains, the site is concerned with fairness to all parties involved.

What the heck are you talking about? Are you accusing this forum of some sort of collusion or something?

[WILCO]

What the heck are you talking about?

Sounds like he's angry and wants a product/service for a reduced price/free and is challenging "Castboolits"/Owners to let his opinion stand regarding a paying advertiser, as a testament to his view of fairness or have it deleted to protect the websites revenue stream, thus rendering the owners as capitalist pigs who are greedy for profits instead of truth as he sees it. :veryconfu :shock:

Another person that doesn't understand how the free market works and wishes to join those who occupy wall street? I could be wrong though......[smilie=s:

[9.3X62AL]

Wall Street won't change due to marches or protests. They screwed the country/world with margin buying in 1929, and did it again in 2007-08 with derivatives and junk mortgage supports. They're a bunch of buccaneers. For my own part, I don't think either GovAmerica or CorpAmerica have a lock on truth--I have a healthy skepticism for both, and a slightly higher opinion of the private sector in general than of public enterprise. The lesser of two large evils.

But that's not my point, for the benefit of the reactionary respondents. My point is that for some time I have been watching the prices of plain old unalloyed lead, intending to buy a pretty good amount to blend with my stocks of lino, mono, and foundry type. When the Kitco lead price index was running in the $1.10-$1.15/lb dialing area, retail price for 60# allotments or less was $1.99. I elected to wait out the "lead rush" that was contemporaneous with the component shortages, to see if retail rates eased if/when market prices fell and the primer madness abated.

Well, market prices have fallen ~20% over the past 3 weeks. Unalloyed lead sits at $2.19/lb now. In effect, market price has fallen 20-25 cents per pound, and retail price has raised 30 cents per pound. Roto still ships via FRBs, which hasn't risen in cost. The matter just seems a mite predatory to me, that's all. THAT'S WHAT THE H--L I'M TALKING ABOUT.

Wilco, you assume a lot of facts not in evidence with your chiding drivel. You're thoroughly out of your depth, sir--besides being profoundly mistaken. I have spoken positively about Rotometals in several threads, citing their willingness to provide metal of guaranteed assay at a rather elevated but semi-reasonable price for home casters. This service has intrinsic value, and I didn't mind paying for it. In fact, I have 60# of their Lyman #2 alloy in my stocks as I write this. So as I see the market metal price lowering and the retail price rising seemingly simultaneously, I think it is worthy of note in the context of all the buccaneering bullsquat that firearms hobbyists have had to deal with for the past three years or so. So, NO--it isn't my socialistic politics at play. My politics are a little to the left.....of Attila the Hun.

[WILCO]

Wilco, you assume a lot of facts not in evidence with your chiding drivel. You're thoroughly out of your depth, sir--besides being profoundly mistaken.

Whatever dude. Take care of that chip on your shoulder. :razz:

[KohlerK91]

[QUOTE=9.3X62AL;1433345] So as I see the market metal price lowering and the retail price rising seemingly simultaneously, I think it is worthy of note in the context of all the buccaneering bullsquat that firearms hobbyists have had to deal with for the past three years or so. QUOTE]

I agree with 9.3x62AL.

[UNIQUEDOT]

This is a good thing. Now if I could just find that warehouse full of old lino machines.....

I know, better luck finding the holy grail....

One of my nephews saw a classified ad for which read "Free print shop! everything included, you pick up and haul." When i found out about it he said he had a few hundred pounds of "type metal" that he sold a recycler for 20 cents a pound!!!! I told him he was an idiot and then asked him why he didn't sell it to me for a decent price and the little jerk had the nerve to tell me he was afraid I'd want it free and he needed the money! let's just say he's not my favorite nephew anymore.

[P.K.]

One of my nephews saw a classified ad for which read "Free print shop! everything included, you pick up and haul." When i found out about it he said he had a few hundred pounds of "type metal" that he sold a recycler for 20 cents a pound!!!! I told him he was an idiot and then asked him why he didn't sell it to me for a decent price and the little jerk had the nerve to tell me he was afraid I'd want it free and he needed the money! let's just say he's not my favorite nephew anymore.

OUCH! I feel for you. A trip to the wood shed would have been warrented for not using common sense and taking the first offer available. [smilie=b:

I trust he is aware of your ire and is running all over God's country trying to make thing right?:smile:

[shaune509]

Just a observation, Rotometals or any other processer buys at the prices say last month then rolls the metal or pores it into sealable size blocks and then they warehouses till sold. There prices with resprct to cost will not follow the spec price for a delayed time, so be patiant. True no one should gouge the end buyer but there are more factors to the end price 'we' pay then the dayly spot price. The market spot prices we see are very irratic as they are world influanced and inpart are affected by the way some market traders hemaroids are flaring for that day, it what we cal FREE interprize.
Shaune509

[Ole]

(I think) I have enough lead stockpiled to last the rest of my life, so I don't really care what the markets say my stash is "worth".

:mrgreen: It's a good place to be. :drinks:

[evan price]

Well, market prices have fallen ~20% over the past 3 weeks. Unalloyed lead sits at $2.19/lb now. In effect, market price has fallen 20-25 cents per pound, and retail price has raised 30 cents per pound. Roto still ships via FRBs, which hasn't risen in cost. The matter just seems a mite predatory to me, that's all. THAT'S WHAT THE H--L I'M TALKING ABOUT.

So? The price of a barrel of oil goes up $2, and gas goes up $.30 overnight.

Capitalism is about being free to charge what the market will bear for your product.

If there is no market for lead at the price Roto is selling it for, they won't sell any. As much as we here that do the boolit thing value lead, I am 100% certain that hobby booliteers are not a major portion of their business. In fact I am also sure that we are a somewhat of a pain in the tooschie, since we want small orders in small ingots in small boxes and any foundry I ever dealt with preferred truckload quantity.

You are certainly free to not-buy as much as you want.

If enough people refuse to buy they have to cut the cost or go bankrupt.

I hear you about the screwing of consumers, there's a shop near me that is still trying to get over $40 a thousand for regular primers... when they were $26 a thousand before the Barackolypse and raised to $40 after. Stings, and lets you know who NOT to deal with in the future.

However the simple solution is to NOT BUY ANY and not rant about it on the internet and then to somehow try to make it look like the forum is somehow responsible or in collusion with Roto.

Silver bullion took it in the shorts a couple weeks ago, and I don't see any coin dealers trying to dump pre-'64 junk coins at the current market spot. Oh, they will BUY at spot all day long minus their fees but to take a loss on the bullion they bought at a $40 spot- not happening.

Ranting about how market collusion and price gouging- there's no such thing as gouging on a product or service that is not a life necessity. What's the worst part of expensive lead? You don't shoot as much and find ways to get cheaper lead.

Assayed, certified alloys are nice and all but I have yet to find a gun that won't shoot a properly blended alloy even if derived from scrap. I can right now get as much lead as I want from several shooting ranges for much less than $1 a pound.
There's a good mix of cast and jacket and 22s...My testing shows fairly consistent air cooled BHNs of 8-10 which is fine for me.

$2 a pound for alloy that will be shot into a hillside is not in my plans anytime soon.

[onesonek]

Just a observation, Rotometals or any other processer buys at the prices say last month then rolls the metal or pores it into sealable size blocks and then they warehouses till sold. There prices with resprct to cost will not follow the spec price for a delayed time, so be patiant. True no one should gouge the end buyer but there are more factors to the end price 'we' pay then the dayly spot price. The market spot prices we see are very irratic as they are world influanced and inpart are affected by the way some market traders hemaroids are flaring for that day, it what we cal FREE interprize.
Shaune509


So? The price of a barrel of oil goes up $2, and gas goes up $.30 overnight.

Capitalism is about being free to charge what the market will bear for your product.

If there is no market for lead at the price Roto is selling it for, they won't sell any. As much as we here that do the boolit thing value lead, I am 100% certain that hobby booliteers are not a major portion of their business. In fact I am also sure that we are a somewhat of a pain in the tooschie, since we want small orders in small ingots in small boxes and any foundry I ever dealt with preferred truckload quantity.

You are certainly free to not-buy as much as you want.

If enough people refuse to buy they have to cut the cost or go bankrupt.

I hear you about the screwing of consumers, there's a shop near me that is still trying to get over $40 a thousand for regular primers... when they were $26 a thousand before the Barackolypse and raised to $40 after. Stings, and lets you know who NOT to deal with in the future.

However the simple solution is to NOT BUY ANY and not rant about it on the internet and then to somehow try to make it look like the forum is somehow responsible or in collusion with Roto.

Silver bullion took it in the shorts a couple weeks ago, and I don't see any coin dealers trying to dump pre-'64 junk coins at the current market spot. Oh, they will BUY at spot all day long minus their fees but to take a loss on the bullion they bought at a $40 spot- not happening.

Ranting about how market collusion and price gouging- there's no such thing as gouging on a product or service that is not a life necessity. What's the worst part of expensive lead? You don't shoot as much and find ways to get cheaper lead.

Assayed, certified alloys are nice and all but I have yet to find a gun that won't shoot a properly blended alloy even if derived from scrap. I can right now get as much lead as I want from several shooting ranges for much less than $1 a pound.
There's a good mix of cast and jacket and 22s...My testing shows fairly consistent air cooled BHNs of 8-10 which is fine for me.

$2 a pound for alloy that will be shot into a hillside is not in my plans anytime soon.

Yeah, that pretty much covers it.

Thing is, we as small niche consumers, rarely see or understand the whole picture when looking at the market spot prices. Sometimes what we see, just makes no sense. But the fact is, any company will not stay in business by screwing their customer base, nor sitting on inventories. Although, some localized retailers with limited competition, have and will try. But then they generally are not volume based markets. Beyond that, we do not know their cost or overhead, or purchasing programs. We simply do not know how their business model is set up, but I am positive competition keeps them in check. In Roto's case, a company that has been in business 70 years, must have a pretty decent model or structure, or they would be history. Sure they are making more on us castor's than say shipyard that needs tons on a order. In our case, they have to make it worth while, or why bother. And even then I bet their profit margin with all considered, is less than it looks according to the Spot. Fluctuations in the Market is a nightmare for most, and with some it takes longer to respond due to buying structure and current inventory cost. They simply can't adjust in a way that makes sense to us fot the most part. Most likely their whole structure is set up on averages that balance out quarterly at the earliest, if not bi-annually, so daily Spots means little. They may also have had to buy this quarter's delivery at higher than current Spot, we simply do not know.

[P.K.]

Next question, why is the price continuing to drop?

[onesonek]

The USD is stabilizing if not gaining slightly, and mostly demand is down, are my thoughts.

[Marlin Junky]

Wall Street won't change due to marches or protests. They screwed the country/world with margin buying in 1929, and did it again in 2007-08 with derivatives and junk mortgage supports. They're a bunch of buccaneers...

Just to be fair to the Wall Street investors, the derivatives were insured by AIG (et al) and triple-A rated so who is actually to blame? There's enough blame to go around but the real culprits are the Federal Reserve (the money flow people) and the Government entities who devised the lending policies that got the ball rolling in the first place. Actually, the whole thing distills down to one thing: vote buying. Perhaps two things: vote buying and greed.

MJ

[UNIQUEDOT]

OUCH! I feel for you. A trip to the wood shed would have been warrented for not using common sense and taking the first offer available. [smilie=b:

I trust he is aware of your ire and is running all over God's country trying to make thing right?:smile:

He did bring me about 50 pounds of sheet lead that someone gave him. I'm still a little angry about the lino, but hey he gifted me the sheet lead.

[9.3X62AL]

Seems like he learned a lesson, and is trying to do the right thing.

There was not and is not an accusation of "collusion" with the board administration. The thread and its content have been unmolested, so I got my answer as far as the board management's path is concerned--and I like it. A lot.

There may indeed be more to the end user/small buyer price than meets the eye here. I would still like to see the Kitco pricing and end user pricing run on a more parallel course than has been the case lately--esp. when a half-ton-plus purchase is contemplated. I will take the advice given here, and wait a few weeks to see what happens before buying (or not) and further supporting a board advertiser.

MJ--I think we would run out of hats long before shoving chapeaus on all the heads of those involved in the most recent market meltdown. I still believe that we have in our country and in the free world the wherewithal to right the ships and get back on a better course.

[evan price]

Seems like he learned a lesson, and is trying to do the right thing.

There was not and is not an accusation of "collusion" with the board administration. The thread and its content have been unmolested, so I got my answer as far as the board management's path is concerned--and I like it. A lot.

There may indeed be more to the end user/small buyer price than meets the eye here. I would still like to see the Kitco pricing and end user pricing run on a more parallel course than has been the case lately--esp. when a half-ton-plus purchase is contemplated. I will take the advice given here, and wait a few weeks to see what happens before buying (or not) and further supporting a board advertiser.

MJ--I think we would run out of hats long before shoving chapeaus on all the heads of those involved in the most recent market meltdown. I still believe that we have in our country and in the free world the wherewithal to right the ships and get back on a better course.

Please bear in mind that the London Metal Exchange prices are based on large quantity.

http://www.lme.com/lead.asp


Here is the contract specs page- freight is extra, and there's a 25 tonne minimum, and that's a metric ton iirc which is 55,000 lbs minimum order:

http://www.lme.com/lead_contractspec.asp

Any time you buy in a less than bulk lot quantity you will pay more per unit simply because the small lots are not what a foundry is intended to output. Normal ingot sizes are pigs (55#) and sows (2000#) which are a lot bigger than most of us can use.

Roto is paying the bulk lot price and buying truckloads of lead. They remelt and custom alloy and pour small ingots for us. We pay for this service over and above the cost of the alloy itself. All of those little ingots with ROTOMETALS molded in them are cast by them in their molds.

The pictures of the pig ingots on Roto's site looks to me like recycled battery lead ingots.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ--I think we would run out of hats long before shoving chapeaus on all the heads of those involved in the most recent market meltdown. I still believe that we have in our country and in the free world the wherewithal to right the ships and get back on a better course.

You betcha, as long as there are more of us pulling the wagon than riding in it... if you get my drift.

MJ

[onesonek]

Roto is paying the bulk lot price and buying truckloads of lead. They remelt and custom alloy and pour small ingots for us. We pay for this service over and above the cost of the alloy itself. All of those little ingots with ROTOMETALS molded in them are cast by them in their molds.



Indeed,,,,,,
Lets just see on the pure Pb stuff ,,,, $2.19 - $.90 (spot)= $1.29/$2.19 = 58.9% margin (if my math is correct) minus incomming shipping cost - utilities - labor - taxes - equipment maintainence - building maintainence, insurance, and so on,,,if they are making more 5-10% on their investment dollar, I'll miss my guess. So may be 5 -15 cents per lb. net, and likely less on large orders. That takes a fair amount of tonnage/turnover to make a a business viable, wouldn't you say?

[9.3X62AL]

Maybe so, Evan and Dave. That doesn't explain the lower retail selling prices during times of higher spot prices (per Kitco) though. And that has been the thrust of my posting throughout. Were they taking a bath 4 months ago, and now trying to recoup losses? That doesn't seem like a wise course, either. I expect a business to make a healthy, reasonable profit on the goods/services they provide. Despite ravings to the contrary earlier in the thread, I have a fair understanding of what it takes to make a business run, and I appreciate that Rotometals has remained in CA in what must be an environment beset with disincentives. But the rip-offs perpetrated by a number of the suppliers and sellers to the reloading community have left me rather intolerant of perceived predatory practices, and less then receptive to their self-serving public rationales for soaking us to the point of saturation.