bp powder info please

[adrians]

hi , i have never loaded bp afore sooooo a couple of questions.
1st what powder to get.?
2nd what primers to use?
3rd what is this "wad" stuff i keep hearing about?.
i'm waiting for my new starline g/b brass ,45-70 to get here,
i have a ton of loaded smokeless cartridges ready to shoot ( it's all i have used since getting the rifle).
the firearm in question is a 1873 trapdoor (1882 cartouche) in 45-70,
the bore slugs at .460 with decent rifleing for its age.
so to start with please keep it simple so as i can get my feet wet and i'll take it from there(with the help of you guy's i'm sure.).
i'm heading to the local gun shop in the morning to get some lr primers for my other loadings ,,,all smokeless.
please give me baby step advice until the first pill flies out of the muzzle, and from there i hope to progress.
i cast some 457124's and some 457125's and some from an old win mold with deep lube grooves about 415-420 grns.
i hope you fella's can point me in the right direction, but i need the black powder 1st so please tell me what to pick up .
sorry for rambling on i'm excited about all this .
regards adrian. :twisted::cbpour::evil:

[El Gato]

I have had luck with GOEX Cartridge Powder and Winchester Magnum LR Primers. I found that the Cartridge Powder seemed to foul less than FFG for me. I like using Vegatable fiber wads that Buffalo Arms sells by the 1000. Have fun with your Trapdoor and make sure you scrub her out well after firing black!

[Simonpie]

In my trapdoor I use:

62 grains Swiss FFG, but I've used 777 and it isn't much different. Be sure you understand the weight vs. volume vs. power relationship with 777. It isn't an exact replacement. I and others have had weird corrosion problems with Pyrodex. True black isn't as corrosive as most think.

.03 fiber wad, from Buffalo arms I think, but anything will do, and the effect on accuracy is minimal.

530 grain .459 bullet pre SPG lubed from Mt. Baldy. I find most 500+ grain bullets work and no 405 grain of any configuration works. Others say I'm wrong.

I use Winchester WLRM (Magnum) primers because the Pat Wolf book said to. I tried to use regular primers and the accuracy was noticeably worse, but I wouldn't call it a thorough test by any means.

I size my cases to a nice light shove with the press and don't crimp. I set overall length to have the first land just getting little rifling marks. This exposes the entire 1st lube groove and looks like a 45-90. Kind of. I compress the powder so the bullet just sets down on the wad at the right length. Compression is very light and could probably be done when seating the bullet.

That being said. There are a million different opinions on trapdoor loads. Spome are different because they're shooting reproductions. Others have to deal with various states of wear. All I'm saying is experiment around.

I've never found a good smokeless round, but that could be my limited attempts.

Have fun, shoot a lot, report back.

[bob208]

be prepaired to put a taller front sight blade on it. i would never use j bullets in a trapboor barrel. i prefere black to smokless in my trapdoors. i get better groups.

for black powder loads i use 1f and large rifle primers load through a drop tube 24" long i use a hard card wad. can be cut from old playing cards or any other hard paper. then a .45 felt wad. i use spg bullet lub.

i all so deburr the primer holes in side the cases.

[Don McDowell]

2f if it's Goex or KIK. 1f if it's Schuetzen and 1.5 if it's Swiss.
Large rifle or large pistol primers.
.030 fiber wads
Blackpowder cartrdge bullet lube, SPG, DGL, Whitelightning etc.

[bigted]

adrians...use goex cartridge powder and i load 70 grains of it in my winchester cases.

the "wad" folks are talking about is usually a very thick cardboard circle cut from a tablet backing THE SIZE OF YOUR CARTRIDGE CASE...the backing style of cardboard that is solid and not the corrugated type...this is to keep the flash of the exploding powder from cutting into the base of the boolit as much and also creates a buffer that can very easily be compressed for your boolit to seat against without causing too much pressure on the boolit when seating it.......ill say this again as it bears hearing again...never ... NEVER load a black-powder load that will have an air gap of any kind between the powder and the boolit...so measure carefully your powder/wad column so as to get the perfect ballance of good hard fit on the powder column and yet not so much as to disfigure the boolit in any way. you can use your expander die till you get a compression die for compressing your column.

i have had very good luck using large rifle primers...[cci 200"s]...but this should just be a starting point for you and experimenting will give you the correct combination of powder grains,,,boolit type,,,primer size and type,,,wad thickness or the need of one at all,,,shell type [manufacturer],,,powder size and manufacturer,,,on and on and on.

the best advise i could give is and has been suggested already from others that are a bunch smarter then me on this stuff...im still picking brains here myself but here is a starter recipe:

winchester cases...not sized at first till you fire-form em...do not trim em yet either.

prime em with cci #200 peimers.

70 grains weighed of goex cartridge powder. drop it thru a funnel at first very slowly unless you have a drop tube...then drop the charges thru the drop tube at the same speed every time.

install the over powder "WAD" over the powder charge and push it against the powder with a 7/16th wood dowel or as i use...a 7/16th harley cylinder stud from my old panhead. this "WAD" should be the same thickness thru your loading from cartridge to cartridge...if you choose to use one at all...[some dont use a wad at all with good results]

use the 457125 mould from lyman which throws 520ish grain boolits for me. load 1 "DUMMY" cartridge without a primer and install the boolit so it just engraves the rifling when completly seated in your chamber ...keep this dummy cartridge and mark on it the boolit style and the rifle it chambers in...do this for the future when you want to do other experiments and dont have to reinvent the wheel with this coal....dont worrie about the lube groove that is outside the case just be sure that they are protected from dust and debri till you get to shoot them. now with your seating die adjusted...load the cartridges that you have powdered.

i dont remove the expansion from the case mouth that you have put there so it loads completely square with the chamber and bore...i allow just enough swell in the case mouth to remove the ability of the case mouth from removing any lead from my boolit when i load it down on the wad/powder column.

that sir will get your feet wet and will allow you to experience a load that has served for a very long time indeed. from here on you can ask specific questions about your process until you get a system that is yours to own and brag about. im still fumbling thu while i look and search for my complete system...im close tho and the ride has been a super fun and frustrating ride for sure.......WOULDNT REMOVE ANY OF THE SMOOTH SPOTS NOR ANY OF THE BUMPS THO.!!!

have a ball and report back even if frustrated...we will help and commiserate till you get the smile going.

[405]

[QUOTE=adrians;1429643]hi , the firearm in question is a 1873 trapdoor (1882 cartouche) in 45-70,
the bore slugs at .460 with decent rifleing for its age.

Well, that .460" groove should be a clue about the best potential cast bullet diameter to use. Black powder with a card wad between bullet and powder with the load compressed a little is a good start. Also, depending on bore smoothness and condition, a fairly soft alloy in a heavier bullet (500 grs +/-) may give the best chance for the bullet to obturate into the .460 grooves and yield decent results. It's no guarantee though so be prepared to have to work at finding a good, accurate combination.

I have two of the TDs. They both have the generous groove diameters. I finally threw in the towel in trying to get .457-.459 bullets to work well. I designed a Mountain Mold that dropped a 440 gr. bullet at .461-2" with a soft alloy. Both shoot very well now.

Dittos about the possible need for a taller front blade. They are easy to replace. Simply fashion a taller blade and pin it in.

[waksupi]

Just to make everyone sick. Today a friend of mine bought at a yard sale an early conversion Trapdoor, for $150. Pristine. I offered him double. He knows I don't have the cash, and said no.

(That would be Uncle Don, for those who know him)

[NickSS]

Both bullets you already cast work in a TD. I have several of them in both 45 and 50 cal and they are fun guns to shoot. I use a soft alloy of 30-1 lead tin mix. I have used just about every comercially available black powder in my guns and have gotten acceptable accuracy with all of them. I have had better luck with the Lyman 500 gr RN slug than with the 400 gr slug. Generally GOEX FG or FFG works well but you need to compress the charge a fair amount to work well. I also use Shutzen powder FFG and it requires less compression for good accuracy in my rifles. I use standard LRP for the most part. As for wads I have used everything from no wads to .060 plastic wads but mostly use .030" Vegetable fiber wads that i buy from buffalo arms. One thing that you will want to make or buy is a blow tube. You can make them out of a 45-70 case with the primer pocket drilled out to fit some plastic tubing you can buy at many building supply stores. put the cartridge end in the chamber and blow two or three breaths through it. This will keep the fouling soft and let you shoot quite a few more rounds with accuracy between cleanings.