1973 Marlin 30 WCF, fliers @ 100 yds.

[wvmedic]

I shot the new to me 1973 vintage 336 yesterday, I had some problems at 100 yds.

This was my first time shooting it since I bought it, it came with a Bushnell sportview scope. I sat up at the 100 yard bench first, and fired two shots at a twelve inch Birchwood shot-n-c target. No luck didn't even hit the target.

Okay so I move and set up a 25 yard target, first shot 3” high and dead center. So 24 clicks down on the scope adjustment and now an inch high and dead center.

Back to the 100 yard target, first shot 3” high and right. I'm ok with the 3” high, so 12 clicks left 1/4”
at 100 yards should be 3” left and center. Nope it is now shooting left of center 3”. I split the difference and adjusted 6 clicks right, now the shots are all over left, right, high or not even hitting the target.

The Wife was having the same issue as me, so I don't think we were pulling off on our shots. We were shooting Remington express 150 gr. I did buy a box of Federal hydroshock 150 gr. Last night. I will try them Monday, if I get the same results I will try the iron sights and make it a 50 yard gun this year.

Also that thing kicked the soup out of me twice, my shoulder still hurts. I've not had a 30-06 kick me that hard, the Wife said the recoil was more manageable than our .357 Rossi 92 though. :mrgreen:
Any ideas of things I should try? The scope mounts are tight.

Jeff

[bradh]

Cheap scope, get a good one.

[Crawdaddy]

+1 sounds like a scope issue. Anything loose?

[405]

Yep, the prime suspects are: scope guts loose or the bases/rings loose. Check those things first. Next, really clean the bore well. If you don't have a muzzle guard for cleaning lever guns- get one, they aren't expensive. Then try again. Generally, within the common lever gun 30-30s that Marlin should outshoot the Win 94s of same vintage. I doubt it's the ammo- the various factory 150 gr Jbullet 30-30 loads I've shot thru those Marlins have all been very accurate.

[wvmedic]

I was thinking cheap scope, money is the issue at the moment for a new one with rings and base. I do not like the see thru mounts that are on it now. It dose have iron sights on it though, so I might just have to use them. I did shoot my last Remington 700 in 30-06 well at 100 yards with the factory sight, so it might not be as big of an issue as I think.

405, I did clean it real well before going to the range. I didn't clean it from the muzzle though, I took the bolt out and cleaned as you would a bolt gun.

Jeff

[wvmedic]

Just another note that made me suspect the scope as well. When shooting at 25 yards I turned the scope back to I think 6, instead of the 9 we were shooting at 100 yards.

Jeff

[405]

Gotta luv it. A Marlin 30-30 with tall See-Thru rings and a var-9X scope! Those guns were designed around iron sights so have a bit of drop at comb and butt. That may also be part of the reason the recoil was a little harsh. Add to that the really high sight line and no cheek weld... may be part of the grouping problem. If it were mine and I was set on adding a scope I'd get a reasonable 4X32 and low to medium bases.

Also, don't know the reason for taking the action apart each time to clean the bore. Just get a muzzle guard (or make one), open the action, turn the gun upside down, put it in a cleaning cradle or gun vise (or make one) and clean from the muzzle. No harm to the muzzle, all the junk falls out of the action (not into it) and you don't have to take the thing apart each time to clean the bore.
Took me a long time to learn that trick but it works well with all manner of gun designs. :)

[Lonegun1894]

Mine is a '71 vintage, so there shouldnt be any difference between them, and mine was rough outside when I got it. With iron sights, mine will do 2-3" at 100, with several in a 1-1.5" group. So count me as another vote for trying it with irons and see what it does. It may just surprize you.

[Gtek]

Might want to take a close look at muzzle also. One of the previous owners may not have been careful cleaning from front. 10X or something and give a good look just to confirm no dings or dented edges. I am at that fuzzy sight stage. All of mine have a 2-7 x33 VX-1 Leupold and Leupold base with rear sight removed and sitting 1/8" off barrel. Pull scope/mounts and try at fifty, bet it will suprise you. Gtek

[wvmedic]

405, thanks for the cleaning tips.

Gtek the muzzle looks good, I checked it before buying it.

I do believe we will try the irons, and take the scope off.

I really was thinking it was the scope, though some times it's like going to the Dr. A second or collaborative opinion is better, and though I have been around and shot firearms since I was very young. I was never taught to work on them or to reload, so this is fairly new ground for me. My first deer rifle was a Marlin 336, though my Step Dad just gave it to me and we went hunting. No range time with it, my first shot was at a deer. I didn't hit the deer either, in fact it took me several years to harvest my first deer. I did shoot other guns prior to that but now that I look back, I could have been taught better.

Thanks, Jeff

[Dan Cash]

Medic, you have the right idea about pulling the bolt on your Marlin for cleaning. You not only clean from the breech but can also clean up the bolt and bolt race ways. Regarding your accuracy problems, I will bet on a scope problem. This belief comes from the fact that movement of bullet strike is not consistent with the amount of adjustment. You will find the iron sights quite adequate.

[wvmedic]

Dan Cash, I agree with what you say about the cleaning process. But what 405 says has it's merits, no need to take it down every time for a general cleaning. Though when a thorough cleaning is needed it is the way to go.

Thanks you for the reply.

Jeff

[405]

Even though muzzle guards aren't expensive, nifty 30 cal guards can be made by cutting off any of the 6.5/264 cases 1/4-1/2" below the shoulder. Yes, the nice thing about Marlin 95 types is that they are fairly easy to take down to clean the bolt and raceway.

[Jack Stanley]

Having the soup kicked out of you only a couple times sounds like you were trying to find the right spot to hold the rifle . With scope mount that high it's really hard to get consistant results . Oddly enough a Winchester 94 will beat the daylights out of me every time but a Marlin 336 won't . You might think that wierd untill you consider how well the rifle fits a particular persons frame .

I bet you will do well with iron sights and when the day comes the sights get fuzzy , low mounts with a good low powered scope will work wonders . I recently mounted a four power Leupold to a stubby carbine because the sights were getting blurry . Not traditional but I can enjoy it again .

As for cleaning , I make muzzle protectors from 6.5X55 cases , I'm sure just about any that would fit in the muzzle and take a cleaning rod in the middle would work . A tubing cutter will slice a brass case real nicely . Another thing I use from time to time is a bore snake , I find it good on the days I don't have time for a detail cleaning .

Jack

[Larry Gibson]

wvmedic

Adjusting any sights, whether scope or iron, moves the center of the cone of fire (a group). Shooting one shot, making a 3 moa sight adustment and expecing the next shot after the sight adjustment to land exactly 3 moa in the direction of the sight adjustment is totally unrealistic. It can be done IF the rifle and you are litterealy shooting 1 hole groups and the sight adjustments are positive and correct. Do we really expect that from a Marlin with a Bushnell Sportview?

What you should try;

Suggest you shoot at least three 5 shot groups with that rifle and that load at 100 yards to learn the cone of fire (group capability of the load in that rifle. Consider the cone of fire to be the size of the largest group, not the average. Do this without any adjustment to the scope during or between the groups. Now that you know the cone of fire size, when you adjust the sights remember you are adjusting for the center of the cone of fire, not any of the bullet holes within the next group (cone of fire). If the cone of fire is 3" at 100 yards for example you will never know where within that cone of fire a shot will land. You will only know that with a good shot it will land in that cone of fire somewhere.

Your making scope adjustments with just a 1 shot group and expecting the next shot to move exactly the distance of the adjustment is a very good example of how that one shot for each sight adjustment can get you quickly off paper.

Also, after determining the cone of fire (accuracy capability of the load, the rifle and you the shooter) then determine the accuracy of the adjustments in the scope. Shoot a group, adjust the scope 3 - 4 moa left or right and shoot another group. Adjust the scope up or down 3-4 moa and shoot another group. Then return the adjustments to the original setting and shoot another group. A quality scope will return the last group so it is center overlaps (same point of impact on or from the aiming point) the first group before any adjustments were made.

Also note if the center of the groups was actually moving the amount of the adjustment. Many scopes, even some more expensive ones, do not move the shot groups the exact "1/4" at 100 yards" as per the markings on the scope turrets or in the instructions. With scopes you get what you pay for. I've had some Bushnell Sportviews make repeatable adjustments and others do not. Note if, after the adjustments between the above groups, the 1st shot or two are in the group (cone of fire). Many scopes, especially lesser cost ones will require a shot or two for the adjustments to settle in.

Yes it takes a bit of ammunition and time but to get a good zero you must understand that when adjusting sights you are moving "groups" not individual shots. With just individual shots you do not know the loacation within the group where the shot will hit. Thus with a 3 moa capable rifle/load if you adjust off just one shot the 1st could be a wide shot at 3 o'clock. You make a 3 moa adjustment and the next shot is a wide shot on the other side of the group at 9 oclock. The resultant spread of the 2 shots is 6" instead of the expected 3" movement you expected. This is what you found out. Trouble is, the more you shoot and adjust using single shots instead of groups the worse it gets until you are "not even hitting the target" as you found out.

Larry Gibson

[wvmedic]

Larry good observation and very good info, thanks for posting. What you have said makes sense to me now, as I said I am still learning. I hope I never stop learning though.

Also I have just got back into lever guns, I had been shooting bolt guns for years. Actually one until I quit hunting and sold it, I bought another on last year and wasn't happy with it so I let my son have it.

My first bolt gun was a Remington 700 BDL in 30.06, I could shoot five shot groups that were larger than a nickle but smaller than a quarter at 100 yards. So I will just have to get used to the lever gun not grouping that well.

I will try what you suggested with the scope and see how that works.

Jeff

[Larry Gibson]

Keep us posted on your progress.

Larry Gibson

[TXGunNut]

There's a decent chance a clean bore and good bases & rings will solve your problem. If it doesn't a good low-powered scope very likely will. I like Weaver bases, Burris Zee Rings and have a Simmons Whitetail Expedition on my Marlin 336. Simmons makes some good scopes, some decent scopes and some crappy scopes. Can't recall ever owning a Bushnell scope but I wouldn't write it off just yet. Nowadays I buy Leupold when I can but I like the Nikon Buckmaster series as well.

[pls1911]

The advice regarding scope replacement is probably your best answer, but cetainly work your way to it while following the other steps suggested....
Be sure everything is tight, have a good rest, and also don't try for pinpoint acuracy with a heated barrel. shoot a group of three, let it cool. Maybe run a patch through it just to be sure the group after the adjustment is baselined under the same conditions as the first.

So, after you're convinced the scope is the problem, repeat the 25 and 50 yard sight in steps with open sights.
You may decide to forget the scope and pin on a Williams or Lyman peep... and wear a BIG smile.
And trust me, once you've established the accuracy at 50 yards you'll easily be minute of pig at 100.

[wvmedic]

Well I did not get to make it to the range, so I hope to Friday. Seems life has a way of getting in the way.

I did take the scope off though, I am going to see how it goes with the irons. I will post the results.

Jeff

[wvmedic]

Went to the range today, open sights at 25 yards did very good. Not bad at 50 yards for the first 5 rounds, the next 5 were all over the place though.

The barrel did not feel to hot, just warm to the touch. I don't know, I might just put it in the safe for now and try some lead rounds later.

Jeff

[wvmedic]

Went to the range today before hitting the woods, I am posting a pic of the results.

We have fired 55 rounds thru this 336 with similar results, the target marked 4th shot I had the front sight at five o'clock. The target is 5 1/2 inches across.

Any suggestions?
Jeff

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk324/wvmedic31/Boolits/100_4686.jpg

[wvmedic]

Range report from today.

Went to 170 grain Remington core lokt's as was suggested on another forum.

This was at 50 yards open sights, the center target I held at 6 O'clock and jerked one shot. The top three was dead on the target, I could just see the outline around the front bead.

They shot very good, I now have the confidence to take it to the woods. Also I can now get a RD mould and die.

Jeff

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk324/wvmedic31/Marlin%20336%2030-30/100_4739.jpg

[wvmedic]

Just wanted to post a comparison, the post above is with jacketed. This is a 50 yard target with the same 336 scoped, shooting 170 gr. GC true shots. I pulled the shot on the right, yeah I need to practice but it was a different point of aim from the left group. So I bought a 311041 and have some WW's to pour.

http://i308.photobucket.com/albums/kk324/wvmedic31/Marlin%20336%2030-30/100_5188.jpg

Jeff