Interested in FCD with removable sizers?

[bds]

Hello, first post here but have been lurking here and there and a fan of Glen Fryxell (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=615067).

To bring you up to date, over on THR (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7652550#post7652550) and TFL (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4779781#post4779781), several discussions have ensued in the past and present regarding the use of Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) with lead bullets.

My contention has been that the FCD was originally meant to be used with jacketed diameter bullets but may post-size larger diameter lead bullets decreasing the neck tension leading to bullet set back, decreased bullet-to-barrel fit and aggravate leading of the barrel. After a new polled thread (specific to straight walled semi-auto cases and lead bullets) remained with 50/50 split on the issue, I decided to write John Lee of Lee Precision with a suggestion that Lee consider offering FCDs with different sizer rings or one with removable sizer rings (member Uniquedot suggested one similar to one used in Lee Speed Dies).

Well, John Lee wrote back indicating he may seriously consider such a product if there was enough interest/demand. Since most here reload lead "boolits", I thought it was fitting that I forward John Lee's comments/offer to CastBoolits.

So, what say you?

Would you be interested in a FCD to use with your larger diameter lead bullets that won't post-size and have the option of taper crimping in a separate step by the way of removable sizers?


From: "John Lee" <info@leeprecision.com>
Subject: Re: Factory Crimp Die for lead semi-auto calibers
To: "XXX" <XXX@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:26 AM

Thanks for the suggestion of a Factory Crimp die with an interchangeable sizing ring. I will think about your suggestion but have serious reservations about producing it and calling it a Factory Crimp die. If we make the sizing ring any larger it will not produce ammunition that will work in any firearm.

I guess we could advertise it as "Produces ammunition that may work in some firearms"

Seriously, the sizer ring is .001 to .002 smaller than a SAAMI maximum cartridge. This produces a finished cartridge that will not exceed Factory Maximum, a dimension necessary to fit in any standard chamber gun. Many users can use larger cast bullets that swell the case in excess of factory maximum and will work perfectly in one or more of their guns. That same crowd frequently will use a taper crimp die to assure "reliable feeding". The taper crimp die nicely squeezes the brass in turn reducing the bullet shank diameter. Had they used the correct diameter bullet they would not have needed a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die.

For any given brass thickness there is a limit on how large your bullet can be and not swell the brass over the SAAMI limit. If you are using selected brass of uniform wall thickness one can successfully use larger cast bullets with out fear of producing ammo that will not chamber properly in any gun. If you are using mixed range brass stick with the bullet diameter that the cartridge was originally designed for and you won't need a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die.

Again thank you for the suggestion for a "screw adjustable crimping die" basically our Factory crimp die with out the sizing ring, it would be a fraction of the cost of Factory Crimp die without the ground and polished carbide ring. Bounce the idea off your friends on the forums and if there is much interest I will give it serious consideration.


John Lee, President

Here's FCD and Speed Die with screw on sizer for comparison:

http://www.wideners.com/images/fulls/carbide1%5B1%5D4.jpghttp://www.wideners.com/images/fulls/carbdie%20SPEED%20DIES.jpg

[Dan Cash]

Lee dies have ruined enough cases for me to buy the real deal. No thanks.

[1hole]

The Lee FCD was designed for one thing only; insure the fininished ammo would chamber. If you have no problem with that, or don't much care, there's no point in getting one.

The ONLY time the much sneared at "post sizing ring" does anything at all is when the cartridge exceends SAMMI diameter limits. For some reason, a lot of newish lead bullet reloaders seem to have the idea that cast bullets should be significantly larger than the bore to insure sealing; that isn't true but it's common. IF the bullet + case walls are too thick the size ring WILL make them small enough to chamber reliability. I and a LOT of other guys really like that! But, those who love to seat overly fat bullets don't. ??

How any "Lee die" could 'ruin' a case is a mystery to me. I've been doing this for more than 45 years using virtually every die brand made since then, all brands work fine for me. I have destroyed a few cases over the years but it's never been a dies fault. ??

[Sonnypie]

Ouch! Hey Dan, why don't you tell us how you really feel? :coffee:

Hi bds, Welcome to Cast Boolits.
Thank You for sharing your efforts to check into Lee producing an FCD for the rest of the crowd.
Personally, I only load 2 calibers now. 30-06, and 45 ACP. My bores slugged very close to original specs, so I get by without additional specialties. (.3084 & 4502)
I have no doubt that what you propose could be of benefit to yourself and a number of others though.
Whether or not a manufacturer see's the worth in it (specialized tooling to produce) remains to be seen.
If not, I do hope at the least, you can manage to get what you desire for your needs.
Best wishes for your endeavors.
And, again, Welcome to Cast Boolits.

(Not everybody here pee's vinegar) :takinWiz:
:bigsmyl2:

[Catshooter]

For some reason, a lot of newish lead bullet reloaders seem to have the idea that cast bullets should be significantly larger than the bore to insure sealing; that isn't true but it's common.

This "newish" lead boolit caster/reloader says you're incorrect. I have two 45s (same manufactuer) that lead with wheel weight boolits at .001 over bore diameter. When I step the boolits up to .0025 over bore diameter (no other changes in the recipe) zero leading. I think those two bores need the extra diameter to seal.

I started casting/reloading in 1971. But when I came here six years ago I learned more than I had in the previous 34.

To answer the OP, I would buy a Lee FCD with a removable carbide ring for a 45 AR sizer with a roll crimp. Don't need one for the ACP, thanks though.


Cat

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I would very much like to buy serveral "screw adjustable crimping die" from Lee,
especially if they were a fraction of the cost due to no carbide ring.
Jon

[RobS]

Well, I already made my straight wall FCD's into non-carbide ringed crimpers. Having the option to buy the die with or without a carbide ring would be a fine option. I would have liked to have not payed the extra $$$ for the carbide ring that I knocked out of mine.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Lee dies have ruined enough cases for me to buy the real deal. No thanks.

It just isn't possible for the dies to ruin cases unless you got a bad die (in which case you should have specified) or you didn't adjust it properly and that would be your problem not the dies. I use all the major brands and have no problem with any of them, but do have a preference for Lee in most (not all) handgun loadings. Sometimes it's better to not respond if we are inexperienced. Too much internet rumor spreading on all the forums.
To the OP as i stated on the other forum i am all in for such a product if for no other reason than the removable ring to use as a standard crimp die for OS lead.

[jcwit]

Lee dies have ruined enough cases for me to buy the real deal. No thanks.

Did you follow the instructions?

Never had a Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Hornady, L.E. Wilson, Or Bair die ruin a case for me from the hundreds of thousands of rounds I've reloaded in the past 50 years.

Maybe I'm just lucky.

[Colorado4wheel]

Crimping in Pistol calibers is nothing more then removing the flare. You can do that with a taper crimp die or a roll crimp die. It's just about setting it up to just remove the flare. Crimp does not hold the bullet in place in a Pistol round. FCD has a modified taper crimp that is less likely to buckle the case if you over crimp a round. BUT, proper die setup avoids this entire issue anyway. Revolver rounds all have a Roll Crimp (FCD included from my understanding). Maybe I am wrong about the revolver FCD. It's been a long time since I owned one in revolver.

[MtGun44]

And how is a FCD without a sizing ring different than a taper crimp die?

Sorry, I see no application whatsoever for an FCD, all my reloading needs for MANY, MANY
calibers for many different guns for many years has never come up with an issue that
wasn't taken care of with proper normal loading dies correctly adjusted.

I see the PISTOL FCD as a answer in search of a question. I never have heard a question
posed that matched the FCD answer better than a properly sized and adjusted set of normal
loading dies would.

Note that the RIFLE FCD is a totally different animal and I love them!

Bill

[Catshooter]

Crimping in Pistol calibers is nothing more then removing the flare. You can do that with a taper crimp die or a roll crimp die. It's just about setting it up to just remove the flare. Sorry, this is false. Just removing the flare (properly called the bell) results in a straight walled mouth. Then taper cirmping this will very slightly reduce the mouth diameter. Crimp does not hold the bullet in place in a Pistol round. This too is false. A crimp does contribute to holding the bullet in the case FCD has a modified taper crimp that is less likely to buckle the case if you over crimp a round. BUT, proper die setup avoids this entire issue anyway. Revolver rounds all have a Roll Crimp (FCD included from my understanding). Maybe I am wrong about the revolver FCD. It's been a long time since I owned one in revolver.


Don't like to see incorrect data thrown about the internet.


Cat

[462]

Hmmm...how many hundreds of trillions of rounds were manufactured, chambered and fired prior to the marketing of the Lee handgun FCD?

I have no argument with, nor any desire to get into one with anyone who uses the handgun FCD and gets the results they are looking for.

However, Mr. Lee's statement, that usage of his handgun FCD will produce a cartridge that will "fit in any firearm", is not why I reload. I reload to produce a cartridge that will fit in my firearms. To that end, I use conventional roll and taper crimp dies that are properly adjusted to give just the correct amount of crimp to assure chambering. For instance, my .44 Specials' require a .432" boolit. Why would I want to post-size them up to .002" smaller?

Also, contrary to what Mr. Lee stated, my taper crimp dies do not swag down the boolits' diameter, whether the boolit is .001" or .004" over its nominal dimension.

Finally, I do use Lee's rifle FCD for the Winchester Model 94.

[Colorado4wheel]

Don't like to see incorrect data thrown about the internet.


Cat

It's pretty common knowledge that crimp does not hold a bullet in place on a autoloading cartridge. Take a real close look at a Lyman Reloading manual. It shows zero intrusion of the case into the bullet. The case is wrapped around the nose of the bullet. But does not dent it. That is because the bullet is seated past the start of the ogive. They specifically say "excessive taper crimp deforms bullets". If your crimping on the flat part of the bullet the crimp would result in essentially a straight case. It's kinda hard to crimp inward at all with out deforming the bullet (leaving a ring around the bullet).

[bds]

While neck tension comes from bullet friction with resized spent case (especially for slightly larger diameter lead bullets), post-sizing of the lead bullet may induce brass wall spring back and decrease neck tension which leads to bullet set back while aggravating leading issue.

I appreciate the original intent of FCD that works well for jacketed diameter bullets and I support it's use for such purpose. If the post-sizing ring was removable, especially with a larger diameter sizer as to not post size larger diameter lead bullets, it won't affect neck tension and eliminate bullet set back and possibly leading issues as well.

Apparently, Lee does offer the service of enlarging the carbide sizer ring in the FCD. So if your lead bullet diameter is sized all the same, this may address that particular issue.

[Char-Gar]

I have produced at least a half millions rounds of reloaded ammo over the past 50 years without using a Lee FCD. I don't see any reason to buy one now, or any variation thereof.

It is just my opinion, but this FCD stuff is a triumph of hype over substance.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Also, contrary to what Mr. Lee stated, my taper crimp dies do not swag down the boolits' diameter, whether the boolit is .001" or .004" over its nominal dimension.

Well, then Lyman is also wrong as the instructions that come with their taper crimp dies claim they will swage down a bullet. The point that Lee and Lyman are trying to make is that if improperly adjusted a taper crimp die will indeed swage down a cast bullet...Improperly adjusted are the key words.

What Lee claims about the FCD is that even if it's improperly adjusted the carbide ring will iron it out upon REMOVAL of the round from the die so it will still chamber. Problem with revolver FCD's is that upon ENTRY of the die an OS lead bullet will be sized down.

The FCD is mainly insurance for an inexperienced reloader or a reloader that wants his ammo to work in every weapon he/she owns without the need to keep it separate and will still get decent accuracy at least on par with factory stuff.

Your statement that you want your ammo to work in your particular gun is probably the best advice and approach when seeking performance, but i see many shooters with an assortment of weapons that are perfectly satisfied with factory accuracy in their handguns which shoot better than some can hold anyway.

[bds]

this FCD stuff is a triumph of hype over substance.
Well, that's what I have contended for years but there have been numerous threads on forums, mostly evenly divided on its use that prompted me to start polled discussion threads and write to John Lee of Lee Precision.

His response (see OP) validated what I have held to be true for jacketed diameter bullets, but that raised another question of many reloaders using FCD for larger diameter lead bullets. And that's why this thread was posted here.

The fact is FCD exists and is sold with one diameter carbide sizer ring. If reloaders are misinformed about its intended use for jacketed bullet and use it on larger diameter lead bullets with results of post-sizing, decreased neck tension, bullet set back and increased leading of barrel, then I feel that this information should be made available.

Perhaps a notation on the product packaging emphasizing its intended use with jacketed diameter bullets may help with the misinformation and/or the availability of service to enlarge the sizer ring will help address above mentioned issues.

Well, Mr. Lee indicated he's open to evaluating market response and would consider modifying the FCD or developing a new product - and that's hopeful.

[Colorado4wheel]

Well, then Lyman is also wrong as the instructions that come with their taper crimp dies claim they will swage down a bullet. The point that Lee and Lyman are trying to make is that if improperly adjusted a taper crimp die will indeed swage down a cast bullet...Improperly adjusted are the key words.

What Lee claims about the FCD is that even if it's improperly adjusted the carbide ring will iron it out upon REMOVAL of the round from the die so it will still chamber. Problem with revolver FCD's is that upon ENTRY of the die an OS lead bullet will be sized down.

The FCD is mainly insurance for an inexperienced reloader or a reloader that wants his ammo to work in every weapon he/she owns without the need to keep it separate and will still get decent accuracy at least on par with factory stuff.

Your statement that you want your ammo to work in your particular gun is probably the best advice and approach when seeking performance, but i see many shooters with an assortment of weapons that are perfectly satisfied with factory accuracy in their handguns which shoot better than some can hold anyway.


If your screwing up the crimp setup so much that the carbide ring needs to iron it out then your not going to even get factory like accuracy. That is actually my biggest beef with the FCD. You can screw up bullet seating, crimp, even sizing and the FCD will try and fix it so it still chambers. I personally think your better off knowing you have a problem then letting some die beat out all your mistakes so that the round still goes into the chamber and still goes bang. No matter how badly you managed to screw it up. For instance. I had a seating die that was giving me 20% failure rate to the case gauge. I would never have known this with a FCD. That just ain't right. I would rather know that my ammo sucks rather then just go merrily along and wonder "why the heck is it so hard to hit the target".

[Char-Gar]

If folks are willing to pay money for something, then somebody will make it and take their money. The fact that it is made, does not mean anything about the use, utility or real need of the product.

I really don't understand why we care that John Lee is considering modifying the FCD. It it is not needed in the first place, why would a modified gizmo be needed.

Millions and millions of rounds of handloaded ammo that is functional and accurate has been produced using tools that have been around for generations. There are roll crimp dies, taper crimp dies and a combination of the two (Redding Profile 'Crimp). The FCD is just a marketing ploy to get market share.

I suppose, there will be better mouse traps and loading tools made some day, but the Lee FCD is not one of them. The matter is not an issue with me and I see no purpose in taking polls and surfing boards seeing how folks feel on the issue. If folks want to buy them and use them, it is their money and no business of mine.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

WOW,
lots of strong opinions when a fellow is just asking for interest.

a question to those folks with strong opinions,
is there a straight walled pistol case crimp die made by someone else that is
as easy to adjust as the Lee FCD ?

I'm not aware of one, but I surely haven't tried everything out there.

I am interested in a crimp die that is easy to adjust that doesn't post-size the loaded round.
Jon

[bds]

I really don't understand why we care that John Lee is considering modifying the FCD. It it is not needed in the first place, why would a modified gizmo be needed.
That's because often, new reloaders will come on the forum asking why they are having issues and after much discussion, when we ask them to set the FCD aside, the problem goes away.

I agree with your sentiment, but the fact is the FCD exists and new reloaders are created daily. But the information that FCD should be used with jacketed diameter bullets is apparently not available to these new reloaders (how many of us read instructions? :p).

[Char-Gar]

John, I will admit to having a firm opinion about the Lee Factory Crimp Die, as it is the source of many problems for the inexperienced cast bullet handloader.

I have never found it difficult to adjust a roll crimp die.

1. With and empty case in the shell holder, run the seat/crimp die down until the case mouth touches the crimp ring, and then back off the die 1/4 turn.
2. Seat the bullet in the case to the mid-line of the crimp groove.
3. Back off the bullet seating stem about a two turns.
4. Turn the die down until you have the amount of crimp you want.
5. Now turn the bullet seating stem down to touch the bullet.
6. Set the die lock ring.

This will not effect the size of the bullet in any way. I fail to see how this is so complex, the Lee had to come up with a crimp die that will screw up cast bullets. Caveat Emptor when it comes to many reloading gizmos. They were designed to be sold for profit, and little else.

Das all...

A Taper crimp die is just as easy

1. Place a factory round in the shell holder and lift the ram to the top.
3. Turn the die down on the loaded round as hard as you can, using nothing but your hand.
4. Set the die lock ring.

The taper crimp does not extend very far down the case mouth and what little pressure there is on the bullet will have no effect on the accuracy. It will keep the bullet in place for feeding and give enough case mouth tension for good combustion of the powder.

Das all

On rifle rounds for bolt and single shot guns, I just the crimp ring to remove the case mouth flare and nothing more. If a round is to be used in a tubular magazine rifle, I will use a light crimp to keep the bullet from being shoved back into the case. Bullets designed for these rifles will have a crimp groove.

What is so hard about this, been doing it for many years?

[Lloyd Smale]

I used to buy them for everything and use the all the time but found that my accuracy increased without them. What i do now is just buy an extra seating die and remove the seating plug and use it just to crimp in a 4 step. Works as good as a fcd for crimping and doesnt iron out the bullets.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Char,
I agree, setting up the dies as you prescribe is not difficult.
BUT,
using lee dies setup on a turret or a progressive press.
separate Lee dies for seating and crimping.
once it's setup and you want to change to another bullet or boolit in the same caliber.
seat depth change ? just turn a knob with your fingers.
change crimp ? just turn a knob with your fingers.

no tools, no loosening lock rings for seater stem,
no loosening lock rings for the die, no turning the dies.

I prefer to go through an even less difficult procedure
when just changing bullets in the same caliber on a turret press.

I just want the same ease of a FCD without the carbide.
Jon

[Colorado4wheel]

I have a standard Lee Crimp Die. If they made the same die but with the adjustable knob (like the FCD) I would buy the one with the knob if the price was pretty close. As long as it didn't have the carbide ring.

[Silver Eagle]

I would be interested in the new die. Gives the possibility of one more thing to be able to tweak or change on that firearm that nothing seems to work on.

Silver Eagle

[Ziptar]

WOW,
lots of strong opinions when a fellow is just asking for interest.

a question to those folks with strong opinions,
is there a straight walled pistol case crimp die made by someone else that is
as easy to adjust as the Lee FCD ?

I'm not aware of one, but I surely haven't tried everything out there.

I am interested in a crimp die that is easy to adjust that doesn't post-size the loaded round.
Jon

I didn't have a strong opinion in this thread but, I do have a straight walled pistol case crimp die that is as easy to adjust as the Lee Pistol FCD that does not post size the round however, it is not made by someone other than Lee. It IS made by Lee.

I have a Ranch Dog Outdoors Factory Crimp Die for 45 Colt (http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=53_54&products_id=98). Ranch Dog's FCDs are custom manufactured by Lee, they are straight wall pistol Versions of Lee's collet type Rifle FCDs. NO CARBIDE RING!!!

I did a comparison of the Ranch Dog FCD to the standard Lee Pistol FCD when I received it. I did maximum crimps using both and just to see what could happen over crimped (or tried to) with both to replicate the swaging of the bullet that is often reported with the Pistol FCD.

http://www.ziptar.com/reloading/Lee_RFCD_vs_Lee_PFCD.jpg

Left: Crimped using Ranch Dog's Collet FCD. It was adjusted so the the 4 splits in the collet were fully closed on the upstroke, maximum crimp.

Middle: Lee Pistol FCD. Adjusted as per Lee's instructions for a heavy crimp, the adjusting screw turned in one full turn from touching the case mouth.

Right: Lee Pistol FCD, the adjusting screw turned in two full turns from touching the case mouth (over crimp).

The Collet FCD provides a much heavier and wider crimp right at the crimp groove than the standard pistol FCD adjusted for a "Heavy Crimp". You can also see that trying to adjust the pistol FCD to deliver a heavier crimp doesn't. It's no longer a roll crimp but more of a pinched band at the top of the case. You can also see that the bullet has been swaged somewhat. The case mouth and bullet are the same size and almost flush. The crimp on the over crimped pistol FCD round mics at .4422. The bullets were all sized .452.

IMHO as crimp dies go, It's #1 , All others are number two, or lower. The Ranch Dog FCD does not post size the round, it can put the crimp where ever its needed, and delivers a heavier crimp than the standard Lee Pistol RCD without swaging the bullet of messing up the case.

The downside? Ranch Dog only offers them in straight walled pistol calibers that are used in lever guns, .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, and .45 Colt

[MtGun44]

I have repeatedly said, RIFLE type FCD (collet type) is an excellent device that I love and
use a lot. Now that Ranch Dog has gotten Lee straightened out, I will have to get a FCD
for .45 Colt, .44 mag and .357/.38.

However, the PISTOL FCD is an answer looking for a question. I have never heard a valid
question raised that isn't BETTER answered by an ordinary die set, properly adjusted. A
regular die set will never crunch down your boolit and ruin the ammo.

Bill

[UNIQUEDOT]

properly adjusted. A
regular die set will never crunch down your boolit and ruin the ammo.

Bill

Yes, but the FCD will never harm a jacketed bullet load and for the progressive press loader it's a great addition to the toolhead. It's the simplest, fastest crimp die to adjust and has more adjustment than a standard seating die without crushing the case. BTW i am using the FCD in 9x19 with .358 boolits and they are not sized down, i pulled some and they were exactly the same size as they were when i loaded them. Much of this i am guessing is just internet rumor when it comes to the FCD in autoloaders. Every one i have for revolver rounds will readily reduce the dia. of boolits though. After i pulled the 9x19 boolits and saw they were not sized down, i removed the die from the press and dropped a round in the die by hand and it didn't contact the carbide ring and this was with a .358 dia. boolit. I was told it was because the 9x19 was tapered, but 45 acp's @ .452 are not reduced either.

[Maximumbob54]

I love the post sizing ring in the pistol LFCD for one reason alone. I load mixed headstamp brass and don't get all anal sorting it out. I don't demant match grade sharpshooter accuract from such loads. I just want them to hit the target and feed proper. So when I feel that carbide dig in then I know something is up and I cull that cartridge right then and there on the bench. The overwhelming amount of culls have been A-Merc brass and I have learned to hate and despise that brand of brass to the point of stomping on it before tossing it in the recycle can. Since I started using the LFCD on my .45 ACP ammo I can't think of the last burp at the range from them and I get very decent accuracy. All that being said, I agree 100% with Ziptar on the Ranch Dog LFCD for revovler ammo. I bet if he offered it for .32 mag then guys would buy that as well. I plan on buying them all at some point. I find that most but not all complaints from pistol LFCD users are more user related not adjusting the die correctly or expecting something the die doesn't offer. Flat out, if you want to use wide for caliber bullets then it should be a huge duh that you don't want a post sizing ring. I don't see how people still wail about this years later. It seemed pretty obvious to me when I started and I'm no mensa rated genius. So would I be interested in an adjustable post size LFCD? I would put my level of interest as mild at best. I would rather see Ranch Dog's version become the standard for revovler ammo and continue to offer the pistol version with auto loaders. I doubt there would be enough auto reloaders out there that are using that oversized bullet that sales would be big enough, but then again I could be wrong. I doubt I would buy one since mine works just fine and makes great ammo. I could up my brass sorting and get better results already if I could only shoot at that level to need to do that.

[Colorado4wheel]

Yes, but the FCD will never harm a jacketed bullet load and for the progressive press loader it's a great addition to the toolhead. It's the simplest, fastest crimp die to adjust and has more adjustment than a standard seating die without crushing the case. BTW i am using the FCD in 9x19 with .358 boolits and they are not sized down, i pulled some and they were exactly the same size as they were when i loaded them. Much of this i am guessing is just internet rumor when it comes to the FCD in autoloaders. Every one i have for revolver rounds will readily reduce the dia. of boolits though. After i pulled the 9x19 boolits and saw they were not sized down, i removed the die from the press and dropped a round in the die by hand and it didn't contact the carbide ring and this was with a .358 dia. boolit. I was told it was because the 9x19 was tapered, but 45 acp's @ .452 are not reduced either.

Not to start a war, but saying "Never" is a bit strong. It's sized .002 smaller then SAAMI spec. The ones I own are .003" smaller. My 10mm loads are right at SAAMI about 30% of the time. It does size some of my ammo that doesn't need to be sized.

[Bwana]

"Many users can use larger cast bullets that swell the case in excess of factory maximum and will work perfectly in one or more of their guns. That same crowd frequently will use a taper crimp die to assure "reliable feeding". The taper crimp die nicely squeezes the brass in turn reducing the bullet shank diameter. Had they used the correct diameter bullet they would not have needed a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die."
This statement from John Lee exposes his lack of understanding why these people use larger than "correct diameter bullets". His third sentence above reveals his lack of understanding of what a taper crimp die does unless he meant to reference his FCD. I don't think that's the case because he mentions both a taper crimp die and the FCD in the very next sentence. Regarding his reference as to why people use a taper crimp die:well duh, John, that is the primary reason we taper crimp. You don't John? Oh, that's right you probably taper crimp just to "remove the flare/bell". Not me, and I don't get failures to feed.
I do use a Lee FCD when loading my 40 S&W IPSC ammo. However, all those loads use .401"
boolits and utilize R-P brass cases. Being that the R-P cases have thinner walls there is no sizing of the boolit. Results, no leading, no failure to feed, great acccuracy, just what the doctor ordered for IPSC.
I might be interested in one which would be the correct size for my boolits and Win brass.

[MtGun44]

I never said that the pistol FCD always screws up. But, we have had a substantial number
of folks that have found that the pistol FCD was the problem with their ammo.

IMO, balancing a chance of messing up your ammo against no real benefit (not much
impressed with a claim of 'easy to adjust') that I can see, and I'll always advise newbies
to avoid the pistol FCD.

Can it work and not mess up your ammo? Obviously, yes. Does it provide an actual
benefit? I still don't see it, but it is a free country (altho the prez is working to correct
that problem) and if you like it, have at it. Those that like the FCD and I will have to
agree to disagree on the pistol FCD. No hard feelings, but I am totally unconvinced.

Bill

[milprileb]

This is a circular thread with terminology problems.

Suggest Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die (Taper Crimp) be used instead of Lee Factory Crimp Die.

That would eliminate confusion with rifle use, roll crimp for revolvers and focus on the real subject which is a taper crimp to semi auto calibers.

Furthermore: this is the cast bullet forum so just drop use of Lee Carbide Crimp Die for jacketed bullet reloading and focus on cast bullet reloading.

That said: Cutting out all the irrelevant issues: Its a matter of whether you load factor spec cast bullets or over sized cast bullets. Results with the Lee Carbide Crimp Die (taper crimp) will bring two results: no issues or sizing down your oversized cast bullets.

If factory spec ammo is all you need, the die just ensures your loads feed in any weapons. If specific ammo is what you need for your pistols unique requirements, then your oversized cast bullets will be sized down by the die.

Regardless: There is a Lee Carbide Crimp Die (for pistols) and a Lee Factory Crimp Die (for rifles). They are not the same. Just don't confuse the issue by saying Lee Factory Crimp die when discussing pistols.

[MtGun44]

Actually they call it the "Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die".

http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Lee-Carbide-Factory-Crimp-Die/

Bill

[MikeS]

I use the FCD's crimper in a Lee expander die body. That makes it into an adjustable taper crimp die. I prefer to have the adjustment of the crimp separate from the die's threads. With the FCD (or an adjustable taper crimp die as I have it setup) you screw in the die till it touches the shell holder, set the lock ring. Then you can adjust the crimp using the knob on the top of the die very easily. There are times I want more crimp, and times I want less, and I'm sorry, but adjusting a die using the threads that secure it to the press is not an exact enough adjustment, as many times locking the ring can make very small changes to the setting. Lee already makes all the components to make an adjustable taper crimp die, all they need to do is package them together, and voila, they have a new product to sell that didn't cost them anything to develop! They could still sell the FCD, and the ACD (Adjustable Crimp Die) as 2 different products, and I'm sure they would sell lots of them. They could even market the ACD as being good for cast boolit shooters!

[SSGOldfart]

Good or bad???????????/ I don't know but you could be on to something with adjustable ringsthe ACD could have a place on my bench,tell him to start with 40 S&W for pistol and might as well try 30-06 In FCD,I'm already using a 243 FCD,works for what I'm doing,but a .310 is still needed.

[MikeS]

When you start talking about rifle FCD's, remember they're a totally different animal than the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. rather than using a crimping ring like in the carbide pistol FCD's the rifle versions use a collet. I can't see any purpose to making rifle FCD's with a crimping ring, the current ones work fine already. In fact Ranch Dog sells the rifle style FCD's custom made for him by Lee that are available in 45LC, 44Mag, and I think 357Mag also.

[mdi]

And how is a FCD without a sizing ring different than a taper crimp die?

Sorry, I see no application whatsoever for an FCD, all my reloading needs for MANY, MANY
calibers for many different guns for many years has never come up with an issue that
wasn't taken care of with proper normal loading dies correctly adjusted.

I see the PISTOL FCD as a answer in search of a question. I never have heard a question
posed that matched the FCD answer better than a properly sized and adjusted set of normal
loading dies would.

Note that the RIFLE FCD is a totally different animal and I love them!

Bill
I agree 100%. Also what is a Lee Factory Crimp Die without a carbide ring? Just another crimp die...