Correct Nomenclature!

[RMulhern]

This is a gun:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6039/6240704459_d0af3babb6.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6240704459/)
34640629.US105mmHowitzerM2A1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6240704459/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

This is a rifle:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6162/6240713591_9bcaa2d534_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6240713591/)
Heavy.50 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6240713591/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

[Lead pot]

[smilie=l: Rick did you have to sleep with a Gun board for a week (2X4 with spikes in it) for calling a rifle a gun?? or drop it when you were in the service??[smilie=l:

[Hip's Ax]

Thats a Howitzer, guns are direct fire. :)

[Cmemiss]

What Ax said.

[Ed in North Texas]

Thats a Howitzer, guns are direct fire. :)

Exactly. From a former 13B4C. Presumably Mr. Mulhern was not an Artillery Crewman while in the Corps.

If I get this right (my first attempt to upload a graphic), these are howitzers. They threw a 200 lb projectile up to 12 miles, and were sufficiently accurate to drop the next round virtually on top of the first if desired. The M-110 8" Howitzer Self Propelled.

[frnkeore]

I was in the 2nd AD and the the 105's on a tank was diffenently a gun. A Howitzer is a carbine :)

Reminds me of basic training............. "This is my rifle THIS is my gun, this is for ................" Anyone remember that one?

Frank

[Ed in North Texas]

By the way, Mr. Mulhern, that is a very good looking rifle you have there.

And Frank, you're correct (sort of). A howitzer's barrel is "short for caliber" when compared to a gun.

[Lead pot]

I have seen the 105's do a lot of direct fire as well as the 106 RR and they were used for indirect fire too.

And yes I remember " this is my gun" early in basic:smile:

[Boz330]

For this forum this might be a little more appropriate since it uses BP not that new fangled stuff.

Bob

[RMulhern]

I know ALL ABOUT Howitzers....especially the 105MM; that's why I'm DEAF! And no...did not have to sleep with a 2x4! Neither did I have to run 5 miles for getting caught with my hands in my pocket because I sewed my uniform pockets up!!

[wgr]

Exactly. From a former 13B4C. Presumably Mr. Mulhern was not an Artillery Crewman while in the Corps.

If I get this right (my first attempt to upload a graphic), these are howitzers. They threw a 200 lb projectile up to 12 miles, and were sufficiently accurate to drop the next round virtually on top of the first if desired. The M-110 8" Howitzer Self Propelled.

that is one of the most accurate field pieces ever.:castmine:

[RMulhern]

Thats a Howitzer, guns are direct fire. :)

The 105MM Howitzer CAN FIRE DIRECT!!

Ask me how I know!!;);)

[Ed in North Texas]

The 105MM Howitzer CAN FIRE DIRECT!!

Ask me how I know!!;);)

And the M-110 occasionally was an excellent direct fire anti-personnel weapon - Charlie on the wire - direct fire, charge 5, no projo.

[Hip's Ax]

The 105MM Howitzer CAN FIRE DIRECT!!

Ask me how I know!!;);)

Yeah, but if you're looking through the barrel of your Howitzer to aim it you know you are in deep Kimchi. :shock:

[Hip's Ax]

Exactly. From a former 13B4C. Presumably Mr. Mulhern was not an Artillery Crewman while in the Corps.

If I get this right (my first attempt to upload a graphic), these are howitzers. They threw a 200 lb projectile up to 12 miles, and were sufficiently accurate to drop the next round virtually on top of the first if desired. The M-110 8" Howitzer Self Propelled.

Shame they retired that system. King Kong was one hellacious tool.

[montana_charlie]

This is my rifle, this is my gun ...
( ... who cares? ... )

[RMulhern]

Yeah, but if you're looking through the barrel of your Howitzer to aim it you know you are in deep Kimchi. :shock:

HA

Don't have a clue which or what 105MM you may have trained on but when I was putting rounds through targets on rolling tracks from 1000 yards....I wasn't look through the tube!![smilie=6::drinks::veryconfu

[13Echo]

As a Redleg with experience on 105s, 155, and 8inch howitzers I can state that all field artillery cannon are generically referred to as a gun. Distinction between a howitzer and a gun has largely been lost in modern artillery with most pieces sporting long tubes and with extended range ammuntion and the use of some really hot powder charges. Still the pieces in current use function perfectly well as howitzers with lower charges and higher angles of fire as well as "guns" with the flatter, longer range trajectory. My favorite piece is still the M110 8" howitzer. A 200lb shell just made a real convincing argument.

Jerry Liles

[Ed in North Texas]

Shame they retired that system. King Kong was one hellacious tool.

It was, but for the Corps level Arty support role, which the M-110 was supposed to be dedicated to, they replaced it with the M-270 MLRS. Not anywhere near as accurate before the introduction of the guided missiles. But with a 26 mile (42km) maximum rocket range, and the ability to fire guided missiles to 300 miles, it is one hell of a system. With sub-munitions, IIRC the coverage of the basic rocket 6 round load is about 1 square kilometer.

These came in long after I left Arty, and their effectiveness is beyond question. Yet the difficulty of exactly accomplishing, and (for the Redleg) beauty of a Group level* Time on Target (TOT - multiple Arty pieces - for a Group this would be batteries and units in different locations with pieces with different ranges and capabilities, all rounds arriving on the target at the same time) fire mission** is a thing to behold (as long as you aren't on the receiving end).

* 155, 175 and 8" in my day - and I think Arty Groups are long gone now, along with the 175mm and 8".

** I observed this one time, sitting on a hill top in Ft. Sill and watching the TOT in the valley below.

[bigted]

This is a gun:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6039/6240704459_d0af3babb6.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6240704459/)
34640629.US105mmHowitzerM2A1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6240704459/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

This is a rifle:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6162/6240713591_9bcaa2d534_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6240713591/)
Heavy.50 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6240713591/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

i see the blocks on yer barrel. do you mount a unertl on her for development ? would like to see photo of her wearing the glass. my 38-55 wears a unertl of 12x for the development im doing

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/023.jpg

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/024.jpg

[RMulhern]

BT

One time I mounted my MVA atop but I shoot just as good groups with irons as I do with the scope! At 71...I still have 20/10 vision distant and I use .5 diopter correction to clear up the front sight! Not much 'load development' needed for the 50 2 1/2! It shoots anything from 650 gr up through 720 gr exceedingly well! Me thinks Leadpot would allude to the previous statement!!

[Ed in North Texas]

Forgot to apologize to Mr. Mulhern for presuming that he was not an Arty crewman while in the Corps.

Jerry (13Echo), Because the title was "Correct Nomenclature", not "Popular Terminology", several of us stated Howitzer was correct. The Army and Marine Corps officially use the term "Howitzer" (as in Howitzer, 105mm Towed, M-101). As you stated, the term "gun" is normally used when the troops are speaking of the Battery's weapons. This is similar to the shooting community writers who have generally given in to popular usage and you can read the term "gun violence" in the pages of most every magazine article on guns and politics. I've still never observed a firearm undertake any action of its own volition, and I don't expect I ever will. But I guess I might consider it worthwhile to quit beating my head against the wall by objecting to the common usage.

[13Echo]

Ed,
I concede you are correct in making the distiction. It is important in the utilization of the piece and all my battalions were styled howitzer battalions. However even Fm6-40 used the term Gun as a generic for field artillery cannon. Nowdays the distinction is just about moot as current field pieces are capable of performing as either type. Perhaps the term "gunhowitzer" should be restored from the 12 pounder Napoleon of the Civil war. Besides what would we call the Gunrats or Gunbunnys or do the Gunbunny Hop serving the pieces if they weren't guns?

Nice to have another Redleg around. By the way when I was in the 30th FA, 214th Artillery Group at Ft Sill we used to shoot those TOTs you admired so much

Jerry Liles

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed,snip
pounder Napoleon of the Civil war. Besides what would we call the Gunrats or Gunbunnys or do the Gunbunny Hop serving the pieces if they weren't guns?

Nice to have another Redleg around. By the way when I was in the 30th FA, 214th Artillery Group at Ft Sill we used to shoot those TOTs you admired so much

Jerry Liles

I like the Gun/Howitzer idea. As to what to call, Cannon Cocker would still work and it is more generic. :groner:

At one time I was in the 5th/30th. Now I'll date myself - Caserne Ederle, Vicenza, IT, it was a Sergeant Missile unit. There was a Group, but it was disbanded because we were the only unit in the Group. Amazing the Army figured out there was no need for a Group command structure to command one Battalion commander.

Ed

[13Echo]

Well when I was in the 3/30th we still had some M115s towed and the battalion's M109s had the short barreled tubes with the huge fume extractors on the barrel. Sgt missiles were still in service and I knew how to calculate a fire mission for the Honest John and Little John free flight rockets. In the 94th (8" M110) we were up to date with a FADAC computer which was a militarized PDP-10 or 12 with 6k ram and a 250k hard drive. It required a 5 kw generator and was the size of small desk top. Hot stuff and a pain in the ***. We ran it for show and just used the regular slide rules and firing tables when no one was looking.

Always regretted not having some time on the M107 175mm gun. I'd have served with all the tube artillery in the inventory then.

Jerry Liles

[Ed in North Texas]

Well when I was in the 3/30th we still had some M115s towed and the battalion's M109s had the short barreled tubes with the huge fume extractors on the barrel. Sgt missiles were still in service and I knew how to calculate a fire mission for the Honest John and Little John free flight rockets. In the 94th (8" M110) we were up to date with a FADAC computer which was a militarized PDP-10 or 12 with 6k ram and a 250k hard drive. It required a 5 kw generator and was the size of small desk top. Hot stuff and a pain in the ***. We ran it for show and just used the regular slide rules and firing tables when no one was looking.

Always regretted not having some time on the M107 175mm gun. I'd have served with all the tube artillery in the inventory then.

Jerry Liles

You are talking my language! Let's see how far back you go. Were you on "Alert" on 22 November?

[13Echo]

In Germany we were on alert every month (1968-1970). The big alert, not a drill type, was when the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia. That time we went to forward deployment areas and had a crew go to the Special Weapons dump to pick them up if necessary. Elsewhere we didn't need no steenkin alert to keep us alert.

Jerry Liles

[RMulhern]

Jerry

You familiar with the Davy Crockett munitions? Got a friend that was OIC in one of those outfits! Told me....if we had to fire it....we were DONE!!

[13Echo]

The Davy Crockett must have been designed for the Japanese Special Attack troops. It was a short range, low yield nuke that mounted on the back of a jeep or could be fired from a tripod. It was so short ranged the firing crew was almost certain to be toasted by the explosion.

As it was I was never too keen on the range we got with nukes in the 8" and 155 howitzers and they shot a h*ll of a lot further. We used to regularly practice with the special weapons spotter round and it was a hoot. In the 8" we used zone charges 1-3 (from the 175gun I think). A zone 2 muzzle blast regularly blew the deck plates off the engine compartment of the gun (howitzer for Ed) and the blast felt like you were slapped anywhere within 100yds of the piece. Never did try a zone 3. I suspect the short tubed 8" we had at the time wouldn't take too many of those. I don't think any of the FA tactical nukes are still in stock.

How are the grandkids Rick? Get their deer yet?

Jerry Liles

[RMulhern]

Jerry

We're hunting in Kansas this year and the rifle season doesn't open until Nov. 30! We've been footballing and making games is all! Done some shooting lately with the cooler weather and I've really got the 45 2 7/8 shooting the best ever with PP! A decent buck doesn't stand a chance out to 500 yards if he'll stand still!!

[Ed in North Texas]

In Germany we were on alert every month (1968-1970). The big alert, not a drill type, was when the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia. That time we went to forward deployment areas and had a crew go to the Special Weapons dump to pick them up if necessary. Elsewhere we didn't need no steenkin alert to keep us alert.

Jerry Liles

Yes, I remember alerts in Germany. With being close to the Czech border, those of us on the 1st floor of the barracks went out the windows to keep the doorways clear for the troops on the 2d and 3d floors. And the Davey Crockett was a suicide answer.

But the date November 22d has a special meaning. It was a "big alert" too. When I was an instructor at Sill ('67 to '68), the young troops (sounds funny now, given how young I was at the time, but I was a vet of RVN and thus an "old man" to them) all talked about being in school on November 22. It was a touchstone in the life of everyone in the US, and cognizant on that day. The troops really thought I was an old man when I told them I grabbed my "stuff" and drew my weapon that day - and waited and waited. Of course I'm talking about November 22, 1963.

[13Echo]

In High School for the Cuban Missle Crisis and for the President's assasination. Enlisted 1 May 67 and got to pull riot duty in DC after MLK was murdered.

Jerry Liles

[Finster101]

In Germany we were on alert every month (1968-1970). The big alert, not a drill type, was when the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia. That time we went to forward deployment areas and had a crew go to the Special Weapons dump to pick them up if necessary. Elsewhere we didn't need no steenkin alert to keep us alert.

Jerry Liles



Not too up to speed on artillery. Have seen my share of an "Alert" or two. As for "The Border" we weren't near it, we were on it.