Brass, Cast & Crimp Questions.

[WallyBear]

The set up.

I have an 1895 Remington 12g. with fluid steel barrels. Long story but it now sports a 24" set of barrels and Safari style express sights.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x394/klickitat1/dolly.jpg

So as it is, I am getting 6 round composite groups of 4" @ 100 yards shooting Fiocchi 12LRSL 1 ounce low recoil - 1150 fps rounds. I bought everything the retailer had at the gun show and now they can't get anymore.

Fast forward:

Recently my best friend and I started casting for his 45-70 and I am hooked. I would like to start casting slugs for this gun now.

I would like to cast 7/8 ounce foster style slugs. The reason for this is that even though this gun has been oked by a gun smith to handle full powered loads I do not want to abuse it. I would like to have foster style slugs because I want to have an attached wad like the Fiocchi slugs as they are the most accurate.

So here are my questions:

#1 Is there a supplier where I can purchase Aero style wads like what Fiocchi uses?
#2 Do I need to use a full diameter slug? I suppose I could cut one and measure but seeings how I have a limited supply, it would be great if someone knew the answer. (Gun is open cylinders)
#3 I would really like to use brass Magtech shells. BUT... I would really like to crimp the shell around the slug so as to make it look like a 700 Nitro express. I have a machinist who is making me a crimping die. Is there any hints or suggestions for doing this?

[WallyBear]

Any body want to help a guy out?

[shaune509]

As to the crimp die for brass shells, from the 1961 Alcan reloaders manual #X. The crimp radius is .125"and guide shank @ .625" depth. And with the warning to ONLY crimp to hold the top card. I would think that slugs would be just slightly crimped to hold the slug in and give the best life for the shell. Sorry can't scan the page, maybe some one else can. Its on page 2 of manual #X.
Shaune509

[tacklebury]

Might look around this site. I don't load shotgun a lot, but they have good diversity of products. Might call them also. ;)

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/

[Crawdaddy]

Any body want to help a guy out?

I wish I could. I got pretty good with rifled shotgun barrels but dont know anything about casting for smooth bores.

[HiVelocity]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=129522

[Ziptar]

Have a read through this thread, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=7916 for some ideas about crimping brass shells around slugs

[turbo1889]

Although I understand your desire to load an attached base-wad slug you are unfortunately facing a component availability issue. First of all, to my knowledge, no-one sells a plastic wad which is designed specifically to snap, screw, or glue into the base of a home cast slug. Attached base-wad type slugs are available as complete component units primarily from the Gualandi company and are sold both by midwayusa.com and ballisticproducts.com among a few other places I’m sure. Unfortunately, they are expensive.

I also understand your desire to load your slugs in full length metallic cases. However, do to the thinner wall thickness of the readily available and relatively inexpensive Mag-Tech and similar cases they are far less then ideal for loading slugs for a gun with a conventional bore diameter that is not oversize to match the larger internal diameter of the thin wall brass cases. Heavy wall cases are available but they are significantly more expensive being a custom item and applying anything more then the slightest taper crimping to them can be difficult and ill advised so they are best used with rifled barrel slug guns using primarily neck tension sometimes with the addition of a slight taper crimp to hold the slug rather then a roll crimp.

At this point in time the best idea that comes to my mind to suit your needs would be to use a built up slug where you cast the head of the slug in a custom mold that is a short squatty shaped solid slug with a healed base where the healed base fits into an un-slit Gualandi LBC type wad probably either the 30mm or 43mm size that is packed full of 20ga. un-bore size nitro cards and the heal of the slug head is glued into the top mouth of that wad so that it serves as the slugs attached tail assembly.

I have to get off the net and get my rear in gear and get myself off to work now. I will post again on this possibility when I return later this evening. Until then.

[turbo1889]

Sorry about my tardiness in replying, yesterday afternoon did not go as planned.

Here is a diagram to explain basically what I am suggesting:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6101/6279842516_054e855357.jpg

To my knowledge the cast head of the slug as drawn to the left side is within the machining capabilities of Tom at Accurate Molds(.com) and weighs in at approximately 7/8-oz. or so although there were a couple dimensions that I could not be absolutely sure of since I currently don’t have a LBC type wad at my disposal to take a couple critical measurements off of although I do know the approximate measurements since early this spring I bought a bag of the 30mm length ones and experimented with how well they worked as a 12/20 sabot in rifled barrel slug guns (a sabot that fits a 12ga. barrel and uses a 20ga. size slug).

The important thing that makes this a possibility is that the LBC wads are a very heavy duty thick walled steel shot wad that is sold un-slit and thus if you don’t slit them they are a strong heavy duty tube that if filled up in the bottom with 20ga. nitro cards could be used as a tail assembly for a slug that was dimensioned to tightly press into their open mouth on the top (the addition of some glue as well to be absolutely sure the tail stays attached would probably be wise).

The wads in question are available through ballisticproducts.com just simply type “LBC” into the search function on their website and they will come right up. There are several different sizes designated by length in millimeters. The 30mm and 43mm sizes I would think would be plenty long enough to serve as the building blocks for a built up tail assembly. I do need to order some more of the 30mm ones myself so I may place that order some time later this week which would allow me to get the exact measurements I would need to finalize the critical healed base diameter dimension for the slug head that would be needed and I could build a couple prototypes with some 20ga. full bore slugs that wouldn’t be quite as nice as a healed base head specifically designed for this but would be sufficient to test the theory.

Your other option would be to have a custom mold made or have the Lyman foster slug mold modified to accept an attached tail assembly made up of 12ga. nitro cards attached to the slug base with a screw. This would ensure that you aren’t dependent upon the availability of heavy wall un-slit steel shot wads to build your slugs but only need nitro cards and screws which are more readily available items. But there is the down side that such nitro card and screw tail assemblies are more difficult and time consuming to assemble and I have also personally found that they do not perform as well in the larger gauges as they do in the smaller gauge sizes. If you are interested in the “card and screw” attached base wad assemblies in the 12ga. I would suggest you contact another forum member “VdoMemorie” since he has modified a Lyman Foster slug mold specifically for attaching a “card and screw” base wad too it, something I have not done and I have only messed around with “card and screw” attached base wads in the larger 12ga. in passing and I think he may have done more with that methodology in the larger gauges where my experience with that methodology is mainly in the 410 bore size.

Anyway, if you’re interested in the built up assembly made using the LBC wads as the tail let me know since I’m more likely to “get around to it” on making up some prototypes in a month or so and sending a handful of them to you for the cost of the shipping if that is the case otherwise it will probably get pushed to the back burner. Can’t guarantee anything quicker then a month or so and I will ask you to cover the cost of shipping to send them to you but I am willing to make up some prototypes using some 20ga. full bore slugs if your that interested in the idea.

[WallyBear]

First let me say thank you to everyone who has jumped on here to help me out. I have been reading EVERYTHING that has been posted and chased down every link and followed each rabbit trail to the end.

Turbo, thank you very much. I did not get on here last night as I got hung up with some stuff and actually bought a bag of goodies from Cabela's before I read your posts. This morning I ordered 11ga cards and fiber wads to work with my magtechs.

I had also ordered the LEE 7/8 oz mold and had plans of drilling the insert out to cast a spur big enough to attach a screw into for attaching the fiber wads.

Please do not take this as I am ignoring your advice. I bought the components before I got back on here. I will definitely be chasing down all the information you presented. At the same time I will play with the components that I have and if I post them, I am not throwing it in your face. I would hate to offend anyone who has taken the time to help out and to make an offer like that.

I would also love to build up a load like what you have shown. Please let me know any costs associated with getting some samples and I would gladly cover the costs. This is a long term project and will be at this for quite some time so anything that fits into your time schedule works for me. I have 20g., 16g. and 12g. doubles to play with. What ever works for you, I would be willing to test drive.

BTW: Dolly is not just a toy for me. I take her out hunting with me for bear, deer and elk. I even had her out earlier tonight.

[WallyBear]

So disappointed today. I made up a couple dozen slugs using the 7/8 oz Lee mold and they are way too small! Mic'ed out to about .68. I am going to have to have a Accumold build me a mold.

I cut open one of the Fiocchi slugs and measured it. It mic'ed out at .743 at the base of the slug. When I pushed it through the barrel it came out right at .730. There are no chokes in the barrels.

Sooo..... I need to order a new mold before this goes any further. Now I'm bummed.

[turbo1889]

First, I am by no means offended and if you wish to ignore my advice or anyone else's that is your business. I’m just tossing what I think your direction and offering what I can.

Second, back it off a notch and slow down and look before you leap !!! You may ignore that piece of advice as well if you wish but I would suggest research before spending money as almost always the prudent course of action. Your last post made the hair on the back of my neck stand on edge with your last sentence about needing to order another mold before going any further. You haven't ordered already have you ????????

For a slug intended to be shot through a smooth bore gun to be stable and fly nose first and not tumble it must have a center of gravity that is forward of the center of aerodynamic pressure during flight preferably in both supersonic and subsonic flight (center of pressure changes above and below the speed of sound). That usually means either a slug with an attached base wad assembly like the Fiocchi slugs you are used to using or a hollow base foster type slug like the cheapo U.S. manufactured slug loads.

None of the molds at Accurate Molds are going to come that way straight out of the box. Now if it was a rifled bore gun then that would be different and there are several listed in the catalog that would work right out of the box although all are heavier they you desire.

As for the Lee slug you currently have. You can still use it all you need to do is cut the shot petal ring off of a 7/8 to 1 oz payload type shot wad as a single piece cutting low enough with the razor blade edge to keep it held together just like pealing an apple by hand with a knife with only one long continuous strip of pealing produced (you would be amazed what kind of crazy tests of skill a semi-board kid with a jack knife can come up with). The petal ring surrounding the slug above the base wad will strip right off the slug once it exits the muzzle. Might even make the slug more stable and thus potentially more accurate since the resulting projectile after it clears the muzzle and the petal shims strip off will have a base wad that is larger diameter then the head which will produce a small ledge at the juncture point which should bring the center of pressure back even further then normal.

It's late and I just got off from my late night job and I need to go to bed to get enough sleep to be WA&A for my morning job so I can't set up some pictures right now to explain what I mean but I will do my best to do so tomorrow afternoon. Expect a post with pictures about 18:00 mountain time zone (baring unforeseen complications of course).

[WallyBear]

Do not worry, I am not ordering anything as of yet. I said thing as a general statement. Mostly out of frustration and am considering all options.

I just got in from a days worth of hunting and in a few minutes am heading back out for an evening hunt. While I was out with my partner today I was mulling over the whole issue.

I will need a Foster style slug for what I want. I will also need a center post in the hollow so that I can attach a wad to the slug much like the Brenneke slugs of old.

Now I have been thinking about this and (just a thought for consideration with no quick moves) I am thinking that the Lyman hollow base slug mold is going to be a good starting point. The idea that I came up with today is to have the mold taken out to the diameter that I want and have a crimp grove put in. Also I was thinking of drilling out the cavity pin so as to cast in a center pin for attaching a screw. The biggest issue with this is the fact it is going to add quite a bit of weight and most likely will have to turn a bigger cavity insert to thin the new larger wall thickness down.

This is where my thought process is at for the moment. I will spend some time to mull this over, accept all information and critique on the matter. I have plenty of time before I get carried away.

[turbo1889]

Okay, three hours later then I planned but hey life happens, sounds like you are out hunting anyway and won’t get this until you get back anyway.

Since you already have the Lee mold which is a “Wad-Slug” mold (undersize slug designed to fit inside the shot cup of a standard shot wad) I concentrated on ways you could work with it since you already have it.

Here is what I was first thinking originally:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6115/6287420671_8c666c79a1_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54455625@N04/6287420671/)

Basically very carefully cut off the petals on a 7/8 to 1 oz. size shot wad so they hold together in a ring at their base and then slip it around the slug with the base wads screwed to the bottom of it. Once the slug cleared the muzzle the petals would shear off and it would continue merrily on its way without them but they would shim it up to size for the trip down the bore since after all the slug is designed in the first place to go inside the petals on such a wad. It could work but cutting the petals off that way is a PITA and I’m not so sure they would stay with the slug through the forcing cone on every gun and it really isn’t an ideal set-up for someone who is using Mag-Tech thin wall brass instead of conventional plastic tube body shot shell hulls.

Then I go the idea of using 18ga. size nitro cards for the tail (same diameter as the slug) and putting the slug inside of a deep shot cup 1-1/4oz. shot wad. The result would be kind of a Poor mans copy of the Brenneke KO sabot round:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6041/6287941860_ff0fa8a4df_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54455625@N04/6287941860/)

I think it could work real nice but it would have to be loaded into at least a 3” length hull since the assembly is too long to fit in anything shorter on a conventional plastic tube body hull and once more it really isn’t that good of a set-up for use in Mag-Tech thin wall brass.

Then I got real creative and cut some strips of thick cardboard out of a cracker box:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6101/6287941064_abf12d3e8f_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54455625@N04/6287941064/)

Now this I think is more like something that could work in Mag-Tech thin wall brass. The cardboard is thicker then the plastic wad so it could take up the space better inside the brass which has an oversize diameter compared to conventional plastic tube body hulls especially since the thickness of the stuff varies depending on what box you cut it out of and all one needs do is find out which particular product box (cereal, crackers, etc, etc, etc . . . ) was the right thickness for their application.

Then I started thinking about how to keep those shims in place in the forcing cone jump so they don’t separate from the slug before it exits the muzzle:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6037/6287942494_407fcf4dec_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/54455625@N04/6287942494/)

Answer, use thick enough cardboard for the shims so as that they are tight up against the slug even in the forcing cone and wax them in place at the mouth of the hull to seal the load mouth rather then trying to do a crimp so that when the shell is fired it’s a smooth slide out of the mouth of the brass with no crimp to booger things up right into the forcing cone and then a squeeze into the main bore and everything should stay nice and tight together provided the cardboard shims are thick enough.

I don’t have any Mag-Tech brass on hand in 12ga. size (lots of 410-bore but none in 12ga.) so I took an old heavy duty 10ga. hull that had tapered walls that thickened near the base so that it was about 11ga. size in that area and cut it down to just above the brass and used it to simulate the oversize inside diameter of the Mag-Tech thin walled brass (used for all photos).

As to your idea of modifying the Lyman foster slug mold, as I previously mentioned “VdoMemorie” has already done exactly that (although I don’t think he enlarged the diameter it casts and just modified the pin) so you should really get a hold of him on that. I do myself from experience with the Lyman foster slug mold that you aren’t going to want the diameter of the hollow base pin enlarged to keep the same wall thickness on the skirt if you expanded the slugs diameter since the wall thickness is really too thin already and makes it a PITA for the mold to fill out so the extra wall thickness will actually do you good for casting ability. You will of course though end up with a heavier slug since “as is” it weighs in at 1-1/16 oz. from pure lead alloy and by the time you are done with the modifications its liable to tip the scales at more then 1-1/8 oz. even if you cast from lower density harder alloy like WW alloy.

[WallyBear]

Great information. Lots of ideas here to roll around in my head. Thanks.

[nitro450exp]

Turbo knows his stuff, helped me out several times.

Nitro.