9mm bullets at 1700 fps Kel-Tec Sub-2000

[dverna]

I am interested in developing a load for 115 gr bullets at 1700 fps. These bullets must be able to expand and not lead. I plan on using slow powders (Blue Dot, AA#7, Longshot etc) to take advantage of the 16" barrel on the Kel-Tek Sub 2000

I am prepared to cast my own but would prefer to purchase bullets (2000) if someone has already done the load development in a carbine application. I will be doing some testing of commercial lead bullets but I do not believe they will provide the performance I am looking for.

If someone has done developmental load/bullet/lube work in 9mm carbines I would appreciate your guidance and suggestions.

Don

[Larry Gibson]

Don

I believe that sub gun is blowback operated. As such the paremters for reliable safe functioning are some what narrow as pressures must pretty well match factory 9mm ammuntion. I've read reports of 1550 fps with Corbon +P 9mm ammuntion. That is pretty stout stuff so expecting 1700 fps may be a little optimistic. I load a .38 Super Spanish Destroyer bolt action to 1700 + fps with 90 gr JHPs but those loads are going to be a bit much for the 9mm, I use Blue Dot BTW.

Getting top end velocities either way with the 9mm with cast bullets that will expand and not lead with require a lighter weight GC'd bullet cast of a soft alloy. The SAECO #924 is the only currently available mould that fits the bill. One can always design a custom made bullet if that's what you want. The SAECO is a 124 gr GC'd SWC. Cast of 20-1 lead - tin alloy, GC'd and lubed with a good lube like Javelina and HP'd with a Forster 1/8" HP tool you should easily get the weight down to 115 gr and drive them at 1450 - 1500+ fps from the Kel-Tek. They would expand at that velocity. Might want to go with a 16-1 alloy if the softer alloy didn't hold up.

Larry Gibson

[HodakaGA]

Don, Unless you can come up with a stronger recoil spring I don't think you'll ever see velocity coming close to 1700 fps. The bolt will blow back too soon and you'll see a lot of fire out the breech. I think the most people are getting of a velocity increase over a pistol barrel is about 150 fps.

I had one for a while but the love affair ended quickly. The sights on the things are a complete pain to adjust along with a terrible cheek weld.

[quilbilly]

I pushed 9mm pojectiles to just over 1600 in one of my T/C carbine barrels (18") and not only did the J-word bullets start doing strange things beyond 40 yards but cases lasted about 2 or three shots. I backed off and now shoot plain base cast 125 gr boolits at a leisurely 1100 fps which made the rifle accurate out to 100 (tin can or cottontail rabbit accuracy). That lower load might not operate your gas action though.

[dverna]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I pasted some test results I found on another site below.

I know better than to trust ANYTHING posted. First the loads need to be verified with "published" data, and the max listed by Alliant is 8.5 gr of Blue Dot for 1258 out of a 4" barrel. The longer barrel should give a significant increase but 350+ does seem a little much.
I have a chronograph so I will be able to verify. If all I get is 1500 FPS that is good and makes finding a "good" cast bullet a bit easier.

I should explain "why" I am doing this as this may elicit more feedback. This will be a home defense and SHTF gun. My girlfriend has a tough time handling the Mossberg 500 so this little carbine seemed a good idea. The "serious" loads will not be used for much practice and hopefully never to address a "need". In the unlikely case we need to fend off "zombies", I want a load that does not lead and has good terminal performance. I have considered using XTP or Gold Dot bullets and this may be the smart thing to do.

We will be using light pistol loads for plinking and "familiarization". It should be a fun gun to shoot so a lot of ammo will go through it. Thus, I will be using lead bullets. Most of this shooting will be at steel plates at a Cowboy Action range.

I had settled on the 115 grain bullet to get a point blank range of about 100-125 yards. Maybe I would be better served with a heavier bullet at a lower velocity to keep leading down?

HodakaGA, I hear you. the sights are quite a feat of engineering. I added a laser for close in work and have ordered a Vortex StrikeFire.


Anyway, any thoughts or opinions are welcomed.

Don


I saw this data on another site:

Loading 9mm for 995 Carbine with slow powder results in impressive performance boost.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This load data is from the first round of testing and is still experimental, use at your own risk.

I have just finished testing some of my 9mm reloads in my Hi-Point 995 carbine. I wondered if a person could improve the performance of the 9mm by using slower powders in compressed loads to take advantage of the longer 16" barrel. From what I have found out the answer is yes, and quite a dramatic improvement as well. Here is the chrono data. I recorded the chrono output with my video camera and wrote down the numbers afterwards. Made for much faster testing.

My reloads: CCI small pistol primer, 115 grain Winchester HP bullets, and range pickup 9mm brass. (All numbers are in FPS.) Temp was about 15F. Chronograph was about 4 feet from the muzzle.

7.5 Blue Dot

1599
1640
1640
1620
1650
1569
1549
1580
1608

8.0 Blue Dot

1590
1735
1687
1653
1607
1673
1691

8.5 Blue Dot (Max non +P load)

1838
1719
1817
1763
1694
1724
1649

[Springfield]

15 years ago when I was still driving an armored truck and was the rangemaster at our small indoor range I did a bit of experimenting. I won't post the amount but with a 115 grain jacketed bullet and VV n350 I managed to get 1730 fps out of my 5" Jericho pistol, but it was chambered in 9mm AE, so I had room for lots of powder. I was the 5th powder I had tried. With some of the others I had terrible primer extrusion. Everytime I was shooting everyone outside thought I was shooting a shotgun. I would have hated to have to use that load indoors in my house, one shot and everyone would be deaf.

[Larry Gibson]

dverna

getting velocities like that are entirely possibly. However, ask yourself how long a blow back gun will last with a steady diet of such? Nothing wrong with a 90 - 115 gr JHP at 1450 - 1500+ fps out to 125 yards. I would suggest a standard load or even a +P level one (if the weapon is rated for that) for home defense and SHTF. The Lee 120 gr 356-120-TC over 4 gr of Bullseye will make a very good practice load.

Larry Gibson

[dverna]

Larry,

Good advice. I think I will use my standard lead pistol loads for "plinking" (2-3000 a year) and work up some J's at +P specs. I may shoot 100 J's a year just to check function and sights so the wear issue is not a factor. The gun is rated +P.

At $5.40 for spare recoil spring assemblies I can change them every year if need be.

Thanks,

Don

[quilbilly]

I agree with Larry. I have a friend with two of those KelTecs and I must admit they are a hoot out at the range.

[Phat Man Mike]

we have 2 carbines at the house. and all of them get a diet of cast boolits. the 4095 get's the 175 gr lee single l/b with win 231 under it. at 42 yards I can make the 4 inch spinning target twirl with the open sights. the 995 will roll a pop can with the lee 115 lrn all day with the scope the G/F has mounted on it. got my rear chewed once about over speeding the 40S&W so I slowed her down some. ( we also have a Kel-Tec in the house)

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

looking at Winchester ammunition they only push their silver tip 357 145gr rounds to 1290 muzzle velocity

not sure you need to do anything special to your 9mm

if you can take a load with a 125gr boolit at 1190mv book measured from a 4 inch barrel , get 150 or so from the longer barrel with blue dot, your not talking long ranges you may be surprised how well it would work


i have heard of people hunting deer at 50 yards with a highpoint carbine

your talking factory 357 velocities , 357 has had very good hit to stop stats with police while they were using them.

[beagle]

I've had the same experiences with a 9mm barrel on a Competitor. About 1500 FPS but case life was about two firings./beagle

[dverna]

Exactly what I am hoping for guys.

This little rifle will deliver .357 Mag pistol performance out of a 9mm. And the .357 Mag is no slouch on two legged varmints. In a survival situation, it is good enough to take deer size game at 50 yards.

I am going to test some of my current 9mm lead bullets and see how they perform at higher velocities. I have no concern about case life with the "power" loads. They will not be reloaded anyway as I get once fired for $25/1000 (or free). Not worth the risk of a problem when the SHTF.

I got the 9mm as it will always be easy to buy or "find" ammo for it. Also, I already have a few 30 round mags for that caliber. Most of my pistols are also 9mm.

This will be a fun project. First range session is this Sunday.

Don

[migtek02]

we have 2 carbines at the house. and all of them get a diet of cast boolits. the 4095 get's the 175 gr lee single l/b with win 231 under it. at 42 yards I can make the 4 inch spinning target twirl with the open sights. the 995 will roll a pop can with the lee 115 lrn all day with the scope the G/F has mounted on it. got my rear chewed once about over speeding the 40S&W so I slowed her down some. ( we also have a Kel-Tec in the house)

Hi, are you loading cast boolits fir the .40 sub2k?
If so may I ask what's you recipe ? As I have one too and would like to reload cast boolits for it. I also have a g27 that I'm going to load for and am looking for a NOE 160 / 180 Grain .40 S&W/10mm Round Nose mold but have not yet found one.

Thanks,

Migtek02

[migtek02]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I pasted some test results I found on another site below.

I know better than to trust ANYTHING posted. First the loads need to be verified with "published" data, and the max listed by Alliant is 8.5 gr of Blue Dot for 1258 out of a 4" barrel. The longer barrel should give a significant increase but 350+ does seem a little much.
I have a chronograph so I will be able to verify. If all I get is 1500 FPS that is good and makes finding a "good" cast bullet a bit easier.

I should explain "why" I am doing this as this may elicit more feedback. This will be a home defense and SHTF gun. My girlfriend has a tough time handling the Mossberg 500 so this little carbine seemed a good idea. The "serious" loads will not be used for much practice and hopefully never to address a "need". In the unlikely case we need to fend off "zombies", I want a load that does not lead and has good terminal performance. I have considered using XTP or Gold Dot bullets and this may be the smart thing to do.

We will be using light pistol loads for plinking and "familiarization". It should be a fun gun to shoot so a lot of ammo will go through it. Thus, I will be using lead bullets. Most of this shooting will be at steel plates at a Cowboy Action range.

I had settled on the 115 grain bullet to get a point blank range of about 100-125 yards. Maybe I would be better served with a heavier bullet at a lower velocity to keep leading down?

HodakaGA, I hear you. the sights are quite a feat of engineering. I added a laser for close in work and have ordered a Vortex StrikeFire.


Anyway, any thoughts or opinions are welcomed.

Don


I saw this data on another site:

Loading 9mm for 995 Carbine with slow powder results in impressive performance boost.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This load data is from the first round of testing and is still experimental, use at your own risk.

I have just finished testing some of my 9mm reloads in my Hi-Point 995 carbine. I wondered if a person could improve the performance of the 9mm by using slower powders in compressed loads to take advantage of the longer 16" barrel. From what I have found out the answer is yes, and quite a dramatic improvement as well. Here is the chrono data. I recorded the chrono output with my video camera and wrote down the numbers afterwards. Made for much faster testing.

My reloads: CCI small pistol primer, 115 grain Winchester HP bullets, and range pickup 9mm brass. (All numbers are in FPS.) Temp was about 15F. Chronograph was about 4 feet from the muzzle.

7.5 Blue Dot

1599
1640
1640
1620
1650
1569
1549
1580
1608

8.0 Blue Dot

1590
1735
1687
1653
1607
1673
1691

8.5 Blue Dot (Max non +P load)

1838
1719
1817
1763
1694
1724
1649
Dverna,
Did you find the right combination for your Sub2k 9mm?

I have a saiga and a few pistols I'm going to try to trade for a 9mm sub2k. I already have a .40 and should have bought a 9mm by now.
I will be reloading for several calibers but would like to find common loads and bootil weights to use in all my 9's and also for my .40's.

[Chicken Thief]

Given the numbers 7.5 BD is max workable pressure.
The higher loadings gives SD's that is way out of spec = Incomplete combustion.
I can only imagine what that will do to aid shotgun patterns at longer ranges.

Why are you bend over backwards to make a puny German 100+ yrs old cartridge do something is was never intended to do?

There are umpteen rifles that will do proper smack down at 125yds with no problem in good old American loadings.

If you want smack down power go big or go home at distance!