Pre-1891 Revolvers for self defense?

[freedomlives]

I live in Slovakia, and can purchase and carry freely:
Air pistols
Non-revolver muzzleloaders
1890 and before firearms
Those stupid "signal-guns" that everyone here thinks are somehow a good idea for self defense.

I have a Great Gun Derringer (http://www.greatgun.eu/index.php?/vyroba_zbrani/dvouhlavnova-perkusni-pistole-derringer-45-1), which is a over-under, .45 caliber, percussion pistol. Part of the motivation for this gun is the risk of wolves, etc. during the winter when I am out in the fields or walking to the next village, the other part general self-defense. It seems to be the most powerful handgun I can get here, until I get a gun license, which requires some more proficiency in speaking Slovak to take the test than I have right now.

Aside from having that general urge to have another gun (which I am sure many here feel from time-to-time), my pouch holster has space for two guns, and seems really dis-balanced with just one in there. :smile:

So I figure when I home in America for Thanksgiving, I could pick up some antique revolver. I have at home an H&R in .38 S&W, but I believe it is from 1898, so it is too new. I would also get dies and bullet molds to load up BP cartridges for whatever I get. But what sort of revolver would be good then to look for?

[gray wolf]

Seems like you have some options,
One: is to stay in America ( don't take offense please )
Two: is to go with what you explained
Three: how about a short barrel sheriff model cap and ball revolver.

[wellfedirishman]

For defense against big creatures in areas where firearms are restricted, consider getting a big can of bear spray. Hunters and hikers use it here in the US for that purpose.

I encoutered some wolves once near Martinsky Hole over there, a long time ago.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Does the gun have to be physically made before 1890 or can it be a model released before 1890. could it be a replica of a old gun?

A Colt SAA in .45LC Or a S&W Schoville would be a good choice. I doubt they could trace the serial number close enough to find out exactly when the gun was made, and that would only be in the event that they wanted to try in the first place. IE: out of sight out of mind.

Isn't there somebody you could pay off?

A cap and ball revolver has to be unloaded and reloaded every day or it is not reliable. So I would look for a Cartridge gun that looks old.

Randy

[Lonegun1894]

I disagree with the statement about a cap and ball having to be reloaded every day to be reliable. I left mine loaded when I enlisted and left it with my parents locked up as an experiment. When I got out 5 yrs later, I came home and took it shooting. All six shots went off without any hint of a problem. I did load with real BP and not the substitutes though since the substitutes deteriorate, but actual BP does not. I know this was not an extensive test, but this was my experience for what its worth.

[freedomlives]

Isn't there somebody you could pay off?

A cap and ball revolver has to be unloaded and reloaded every day or it is not reliable.

It has to be made before 1890-- granted, I don't know how they'd check, but most reproductions seem obvious in that they have a different manufacturer. Of course, in Eastern Europe pretty much every police officer has a price.

I also disagree with the statement about cap-and-ball. My percussion pistol I've kept loaded for a month or more between firings without a problem-- except the first time. The first time the percussion caps were just pushed on the nipples. After that I found mention of nail polish, etc, so subsequently have been sealing the percusion caps with nail polish and putting a layer of vaseline over the bullet to seal there, and have never had a problem.

[freedomlives]

Whatever happened to all those S&W Russian revolvers that went over there?

That's a good question! Maybe when they fell into the hands of the communists they got melted down to make Tokarevs and Nagants. :x

[Jack Stanley]

I don't know how hard I'd be to find an old Remington rolling block pistol in fifty caliber but that might work for wolf . Failing that , how about a couple of caplock single shots in the fifty to sixty-nine caliber range ? A pair of them would balance you out real nice :smile:

Jack

[Multigunner]

The 20 gauge Howdah pistols would be effective on wolves, but I figure you are concerned about wolf packs rather than lone wolf attacks so more than two shots would be prefered.

The Remington Army revolvers are excellent and fairly powerful cap&ball revolvers, and pre loaded spare cylinders can be switched out to reload far more quickly than ejecting fired cases of a cartridge model single action revolver and then reloading one round at a time.

I like the looks of the Deringer shown, how well does it shoot?

[gray wolf]

I am not sure but I think I read someplace that is some country
Not sure of the location. The people could not have guns but they found a way to fire 12 gauge rounds from a piece of pipe, they would hit the back of the pipe with the palm of there hand, must of had some kind of gismo screwed to the back of the pipe.
I don't know but they probly had something to wrap around the pipe in the middle
I would imagine it would get warm.
Anyway like I said I read about it many years ago and it's all fuzzy in my head now. Funny how some people find a way to fill a need with just a little thinking.

[Three44s]

Given the circumstances, I'd be looking at the 1858 Remington!

Pack an extra cylinder to two loaded and capped up.


Three 44s

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'm pretty sure that cap and ball would go off most of the time,,,,but,,, would you bet you life on it?

Hickock reloaded his daily, because in his business the gun had to go bang everytime. He wouldn't have done it if it was dead reliable the other way.

Just a thought. and my .02

I also imagine there wasn't that much to do in Deadwood in the mornings for a Gambler. Maybe he was passing time too.

Randy

[Dale53]

The most practical (except maybe for price considerations) would be a Remington or Colt SAA in .45 Colt. I can personally testify to the effectiveness of a black powder .45 Colt. It is VERY practical in every way.

Surely there should be a good (mechanical) Remington or Colt that could be found that wouldn't cost collector prices. Good black powder loads will drive a 250-260 gr Keith bullet to 800-900+ fps. That will certainly handle any wolf in the hands of a competent shooter. All you need is the frame - you can re-cylinder and re-barrel it, "age" the new barrel and cylinder and you should be good to go...

Just a thought...

Dale53

[MtGun44]

Colt made their US Military model in 1890, the beginning of a modern .38 cal revolver.

Otherwise, a Colt Peacemaker 1873 or Remington 1875 are excellent guns, but LARGE.

Most of the pre1890 small guns were rimfire and no ammo is available. .41 RF and .32 RF
were common.

I'd get an inexpensive peacemaker replica. I'd then AGE it a LOT, protect the bore and cylinders,
plus interior small parts and springs with Liquid Alox, multiple coats and let dry. Then fog it with vinegar
and let it rust all to heck. Card off the rust with a wire brush and repeat until it looks really bad. Then
clean up with steel wool, and clean and oil. Swear it is pre 1890, "just an old gun" and you'll probably be
fine. If it looks old and beat (hit it with chains and a small hammer to dent it some without real harm) it
will probably pass muster, esp with $50 bill in the hand. A rusty, beat example of an old design is an old gun,
right?

Bill

[Tracy]

A couple of things to consider. One, what is the penalty? $100 fine? $500? And forfeiture of the gun, of course. If it's like that, a little sleight of hand is not such a big deal. But if it means prison time, huge fines and/or a felony rap that might (and probably will) be recognized by the US government, it would be a good idea to toe the line.
Second, what does Slovakia consider to be the gun? In the US it is the receiver or frame. Not so in some other countries. In some countries a barrel alone is a controlled item.
If it is like the US, you could get a complete junk Colt or Remington frame, buy a complete set of repro parts, and build a new/old gun. That may or may not fly in Slovakia.

The Great Gun derringer looks pretty good. One could do a lot worse than a brace of those and a few speedloaders.

[Multigunner]

Its best not to tempt fate by trying to slick laig the powers that be, especially in any international dealings where customs is involved.

Just keep an eye open for a good deal on a antique in shootable condition. Look into pistols that have lost most of their collector value due to having been refinished or nickel plated. Some times a collector stuck with one of these will let it go cheap just to get shed of it.
Theres also the Spanish and Belgian pistol route, copies made about the same time period as the originals and if you know what to look for some were very serviceable arms and seldom have much of a price tag.
A Belgian copy of a solid frame British police or service pistol might be the way to go. A good DA design in a respectable caliber thats uncomplicated in construction so parts can be made if needed.

[freedomlives]

Yea, I want to go the legal route, as I eventually wish to get a gun license here. Which of course, goes against all of my Second Amendment feelings as an American, but at least this isn't Great Britain and it is actually possible without much difficulty to own, keep, and even use in self-defense firearms here.

If I wanted an illegal gun, well, we live by the border with Ukraine, and rumor has it that more than cigarettes get smuggled across...

But I am going to be careful to have the relevant copies of Czech (we fly through Prague) and Slovak law with me, because while I've never been stopped by customs before (there is not even a form to fill out like when you come into the U.S.), I'm sure luck will have it be this time that I am!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Speaking of Britain: how about a Webley. They were made early on and lots were converted to .45 ACP and Autorim. I doubt anyone could ever trace a serial number for year made on a Webley including Scotland Yard. But there were plenty made before 1890.

Randy

[Matthew 25]

I agree with the SAA idea. I disagree with the cap and ball. I don't like the potential for failure if you're talking about wolves, no thanks. I can't see why a cap and ball in that part of the world, in the field, in the winter would be considered reliable. If not a SAA, then something with modernish bullets.

[jh45gun]

I am not sure but I think I read someplace that is some country
Not sure of the location. The people could not have guns but they found a way to fire 12 gauge rounds from a piece of pipe, they would hit the back of the pipe with the palm of there hand, must of had some kind of gismo screwed to the back of the pipe.
I don't know but they probly had something to wrap around the pipe in the middle
I would imagine it would get warm.
Anyway like I said I read about it many years ago and it's all fuzzy in my head now. Funny how some people find a way to fill a need with just a little thinking.

I have seen where they took a pipe that a 12 gauge hull would fit and they inserted that into a larger pipe with a cap and a nail fastened to the cap. slam the pipes together and bang. Crude but it worked.

[nwellons]

Whatever happened to all those S&W Russian revolvers that went over there?


I shoot my Tula (Russian) copy of the S&W model 3, which you probably know is a top break, single action revolver. Mine was made in 1890. Because of the age, I only use BP reloads.

I shoot about 50 rounds a month in it.

It is a bit long for a carry handgun!

[freedomlives]

Thanks for the suggestions! I now have some idea at least what revolvers to be looking for.

My wife spoke with Czech customs today and the requirement they have is to bring with me some letter from a gun dealer/gun smith that the gun is indeed 1890 or before. No other forms or anything else needed!

I'll definitely be using BP handloads for it.

[John Ross]

Let's give this guy some GOOD suggestions, rather than suggest he skirt the law. He said only non-revolver muzzleloaders, so all you guys talking about cap and ball revolvers and whether they need to be loaded every day are wasting his time.

1. Webley 1883 RIC in .455. 5 shot DA revolver about the size of a Colt Detective Special. Fiocchi makes ammo. $450 in shooting condition.

2. S&W .44 DA First Model in .44 Russian. Top break DA revolver. Fiocchi makes ammo. $750 in really nice shape.

3. French 1873 11mm DA revolver. Don't know about price or ammo.

4. Colt SAA. Probably pretty expensive for one made before 1891 if in good shape.

[Pertsev]

I hate to correct John Ross(loved that book),but the S&W safety hammerless was only made in 32S&W and 38 S&W. The 38 S&W is mild ,but lethal,can be improved w/ handloading. The hammerless is a neat,handy revolver.
Webley RIC or other old Webley solid frame in 455 or 450 excellent choice.
In that part of the world a German Reichs Revolver might be obtainable. It will fire 44 Russian rounds.It is a single action and has no ejector,so you got 6 shots,then use it as a club.
Actually,I like those O/U derringers in 45 cal. Where can we get one ?
Slovakia is better than New Joisy,New Yawk or Maryland here in USA. They will send you to jail for toting a loaded muzzle loader pistol in those states!

[freedomlives]

John Ross -- Where can I find those for the prices you suggest. I've looked on gunbroker, and prices there for those models seem a lot higher.

I guess you could order one from the company, though I guess there is some customs work that would be involved. They have a great variety of finishes, and will do custom length barrels/calibers. The one thing I don't like is that the path from the percussion cap for the lower barrel is pretty long, and after 10 or so shots can get fouled up and need to be cleaned. If it wasn't obvious from the pictures, there is a lever on the hammer which selects which percussion cap gets struck. It is possible, but pretty useless, to sort of "balance" it in the middle and fire both barrels at once. I tried, but because one barrel ignites slightly before the other, the shots are nowhere near each other.

[paulaud]

What about Webley Bulldog Revolver and his US or Belgian copies?
Chambered in black powder .450 CF or even .380 CF, I think it's an effective and handy short revolver with five rounds.
I own too french Chamelot & Delvigne Model 1873 and 1874 revolvers Cal. 11 mm. They are not so powerfull as Colt SAA but the double action is a good thing in self defense.

[John Ross]

John Ross -- Where can I find those for the prices you suggest. I've looked on gunbroker, and prices there for those models seem a lot higher.


I'll make a few calls.

[jlchucker]

I disagree with the statement about a cap and ball having to be reloaded every day to be reliable. I left mine loaded when I enlisted and left it with my parents locked up as an experiment. When I got out 5 yrs later, I came home and took it shooting. All six shots went off without any hint of a problem. I did load with real BP and not the substitutes though since the substitutes deteriorate, but actual BP does not. I know this was not an extensive test, but this was my experience for what its worth.

I disagree also. I've left them loaded for as long as a year at a time and they all went off the same as if I loaded them an hour ago. All 5 shots ( I keep one empty for safety, like they did back in the day). In every instance these guns were stashed with complete loads--powder, ball, and cap. Grease or Crisco, didn't matter which, applied over the ball. I did this with real black powder, as well as pyrodex. I haven't shot my cap and ball revolver for about 10 years, so I can't speak to how leaving them loaded would work with some of the newer black powder substitutes. But think about it. A tight fitting cap, a steel chamber with powder in it, and a tight fitting ball covered with grease. Moisture's going to have a tough if not impossible time getting in where it would do damage to the load.

[freedomlives]

Found a S&W .44-40 Frontier on gunbroker, $630 in the end. Has that surface-rust patina on worn parts of finish, but barrel and cylinder look beautiful (one of the few antique guns where the seller even showed the barrel and cylinder). Getting to the U.S. next week, so I'll see it in person then...

[calkar]

You all have forgotten one very important fact that our ancestors learned the hard way. Have a good knife for back up. I would suggest a Cold Steel Bushman (socket handle not the folder) and a remington 1858. That combo still today would solve most problems that could be stumbled upon.

[calkar]

My suggestion is considering a budget and hoping that a repro would be ok with authorities. The bad side of the Rem from my experience is the fired cap jam which can be solved by buying better quality nipples with smaller flash holes, and I would love to cut the barrels a bit shorter, but cant quite force myself to do it.

[Olevern]

i think the op said non-revolver muzzleloaders, which would eliminate, well, cap and ball revolvers.

[bruce drake]

I live in Slovakia, and can purchase and carry freely:
Air pistols
Non-revolver muzzleloaders
1890 and before firearms
Those stupid "signal-guns" that everyone here thinks are somehow a good idea for self defense.

Just to keep the OP's original needs in line.

I would purchase 1858 Remington and add a Kirst Konverter system (a copy of the old Beal Cartridge conversion from the late 1800s) to allow 45 Colt or 45 Schofield cartridges to be used.

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/remington.html

For the Safety Disclaimer for using a Remington 1858 model or copy of one, I would recommend Blackpowder or low pressure smokeless loads only.

Bruce

[390ish]

velo-dog