Underlugs: dovetail vs staples

[ilcop22]

Good evening,

I'm in the (long) process of building a Kentucky longrifle from a kit from TOW. I've gotten to the point where I'm set to pin the barrel to the stock. My kit came with dovetail underlugs, but I'm pretty sloppy when it comes to cutting dovetails. I'm looking at getting staples instead. Anyone have experience with these? I have barrel pins from the kit, and staples seem the better choice for my skill level. My only further concerns are what kind of staple (solid or slotted) and how much movement or tightness should the pin have? Also, are the specific tools offered by TOW necessary, or can I use my own drill bits? My book is good for basic information, but coming to the specific stuff, it's leaving me kinda lost. I appreciate your help, as always.

[waksupi]

I think the dovetails are stronger. Caveat with staples is, if you drill too deep, you have ruined the barrel. The staking tool is pretty much needed. You could stake them in with a punch, but they wouldn't do as good a job. Which ever way you go, they MUST be solid in the mounting. You will want the solid for a Kentucky, unless you want to put in the cross wedge keys. Those can be a problem in their self for an amateur builder, to get aligned properly.

[StrawHat]

I prefer the dovetails also but I am comfortable cutting them.

Waksupi, why the solid staple? If he uses the slotted staple with a pin, it will still hold and if the barrel grows with firing, allow some room for expansion. Or am I overthinking this?

[405]

If you're not up to doing the dovetail which is the stronger, slicker and more classic, then by all means use the staples. You can even fashion your own staples- with hackwaw and file- they are no more sophisticated than they appear. For drilling the holes in the barrel just match the hole size to the staple legs- you can file or even round the staple legs to match the hole. It's a good idea to have or use a drill press with a stop so you don't go too deep :( or use extreme care with a handheld drill and put a stop on the drill bit used. Solder works well when securing the staples to the barrel. Staking will work but I've always thought that staking isn't the strongest method and has been used by smiths simply because it is the quick, easy way.

[docone31]

I would dovetail.
That is not that difficult. You can also control the depth.
Staples are ok also. You do need the tool though.

[Maven]

ilcop22, Take a look at Jim's tutorial: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=33233

[waksupi]

I prefer the dovetails also but I am comfortable cutting them.

Waksupi, why the solid staple? If he uses the slotted staple with a pin, it will still hold and if the barrel grows with firing, allow some room for expansion. Or am I overthinking this?

The reason I recommend the solid staple, is a matter of measuring. As many as I have done, I doubt I have ever had a gun where the pins all ended up exactly where I thought they were supposed to be. Bits wander, and the solid gives you a bit more lee-way. Once they are drilled, then the holes can be elongated to allow for wood expansion.

[moose30273]

I solder my underlugs. Good, strong, and I am not cutting into the barrel.

[ilcop22]

Thank you all for the responses and insight. I took the general consensus' advice and went back to dovetailling. Maven: Thanks for the link. I had seen that a long while ago, and re-reading it helped me figure out where I was going wrong. I have 2 of the 3 underlugs dovetailed as of tonight. The only remaining question is should I overbore the barrel pin holes to allow from some movement/expansion, or should the holes remain tight (relatively same diameter) as the barrel pins?

[waksupi]

I like to elongate them a bit, fore and aft. Probably not a huge consideration if you don't change climates a lot. Around here it is so dry that they are not a consideration, but I have heard back east where it is a lot damper, that it can be a problem.

[ilcop22]

Hm, I should probably elongate them then. It goes from 100+ to -20 here, and I shoot year round. Might be a good idea!

[peter nap]

I always cut dovetails until a few years ago. The simple fact is they are stronger but as my hands have gotten progressively worse, I just can't cut them anymore.

The staples I've used (All Solid) have held up fine and they are quick and easy to do.

To elongate I just drill a precise fit, then wallow the bit back and forth a few times. It doesn't take much

[StrawHat]

The reason I recommend the solid staple, is a matter of measuring. As many as I have done, I doubt I have ever had a gun where the pins all ended up exactly where I thought they were supposed to be. Bits wander, and the solid gives you a bit more lee-way. Once they are drilled, then the holes can be elongated to allow for wood expansion.


Okay, we are in the same area, just different ways of getting there.

Thanks.

[thunderthud]

those dovetails are on the bottom flat , you dont see em'. they are good practice for hacking in the sights, eek! I have used both, the lugs are the best imho. btw, staples can be made from common nails.

[waksupi]

The thing to keep in mind if you make staples, the bottom of the legs need peened and enlarged before staking.

[thunderthud]

like Waksupi sez, that peening step is important for the tightest fit.

[ilcop22]

those dovetails are on the bottom flat , you dont see em'. they are good practice for hacking in the sights, eek! I have used both, the lugs are the best imho. btw, staples can be made from common nails.

The bottom flat on mine has a couple "unused" dovetails... Practice makes perfect! :drinks:

[Pigslayer]

My first barrel was a 42" .50 Cal Getz Swamped Barrel . . . very pricey. I took a whole lot of time & caution & my dovetails for both underlugs & sights came out fine. The tutorial listed above is excellent.When I pin my underlugs I don't elongate the hole in eithe wood or under lug. I don't want my pins coming out. Sometimes I actually flatten the center of the pin a bit so it is sort of oval. That way it fits firmly in the underlug. Working on my third build now & it's a lot of fun.