G/C Seating Tool

[Ben]

Ben's Gas Check Seating Die

For about as long as I can remember ( & I starting reloading in 1965 ), I've had problems seating a g/c on the shank of a bullet squarely. This problem is aggravated by g/c shanks that are a few thousandths of an inch too large.

I've tried about every method and had only partial success. I realized early that the real problem that continued to be the culprit of my g/c seating problems was the ability to achieve perfect coaxial alignment with the center line of the bullet and the gas check that the shank was about to enter.

The different methods that I'd been using just did not have the precision necessary to accomplish the task. Time for a new design and a man that could make it. I contacted Buckshot a couple of weeks ago about my idea that I had for seating gas checks. I asked him if he could make the die to my specs ? His reply was " YES ".

I took a lot of measurements of a .30 cal. Hornady g/c, width, height, etc. and drew a sketch of the exact dimensions that would be necessary for the tool to work properly and sent those drawings to Buckshot. Now it would be a matter of time to pass until the idea would turn into a functioning tool.

My idea was to make a die ( hand operated tool on your bench - - there was to be no reloading press needed ) that is .3120" in it's inside bore. The underside of the die has a recess cut ( tight tolerances....no wiggle room ) for a Hornady .30 cal. gas check.

The die was to be .630 " in height, I felt that was plenty tall enough to accommodate all of the bearing surface ( drive bands ) on any of my .30 cal. cast bullets and keep the main body of the bullet in perfect coaxial alignment with the center line of the bullet and the gas check .

In order for the die to work properly, you'll need ANY .30 cal. cast bullet with any nose style that is 1st sized to a perfect .3110" in diameter. I simply push a .30 cal. cast bullet ( lightly lubed ) through a Lee Bullet sizing die that I have honed to size a bullet EXACTLY .3110 in diameter. This keeps the die and the bullet in tight tolerances with each other and guarantees perfect alignment and seating of the g/c properly.

At this point in time, it is obvious that the die is caliber specific causing one to need a 2nd die cut to very critical tolerances to use it with another caliber.

When I size one of my .30 cal. cast bullets in a Lee Bullet sizing die that I have honed to EXACTLY .3110 " dia., that bullet can be slid with some thumb pressure down the bore of the die.

When a g/c is in place and the .311 cast bullet placed in the bore of the die, all that is left to do is to place your top punch that fits your cast bullet on the nose of the bullet and give a couple of soft taps with a small tack hammer. The g/c is seated perfectly every time. The g/c isn't crimped at this point in time. All you have to do now is pass the g/c'd bullet back through a .311 sizer die , or .310 or .309"...( your choice ) in order to crimp and lock the g/c onto the shank of the bullet.

The beauty of the system is no crooked and cock - eyed looking gas checks anymore. The bullet goes into the gas check with no possibility of mis-alignment ( which had always been the Achilles' Heel of all my other attempts in the past ). In the past, if the bullet entered the g/c just a few degrees out of alignment, you'd always end up with the g/c on the base of the bullet , in a mis-aligned fashion. We all know what this does to accuracy. No more mis-aligned checks now !

Once the g/c is seated onto the g/c shank of the bullet, soft thumb pressure will eject the bullet from the die and you're ready for the next one. It is a quick system and a SUPER ACCURATE system with no mis-alignment.

I know.....You want one, Right ? ?

Well, you'll need to contact Buckshot, the tool was made with my plans and by my specs that I wrote up and provided Buckshot.

I have no interest in making a single penny from any aspect of this endeavor.

If you want one, you need to contact Buckshot via. PM. No one here on this forum will owe me anything for the use of the plans ( which Rick has now ) and / or their ability to obtain a tool from Rick.

BTW, I know of no reason why this concept can't be adapted to other calibers, .22, 6mm, .25, .264, 7mm, .35, .44, 45, etc.

I've been waiting for something like this for a LONG TIME !

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/009.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/010.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/011.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/014.jpg

[Ben]

Here is the " End Product " :



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/016.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/017.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/018.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/015.jpg

[Catshooter]

Very nice Ben. That Buckshot is damn fine mechanic, isn't he? And good design too on your part.


Cat

[Ben]

Cat:

Yes, Buckshot is a SUPER nice fellow !

I'm proud to be able to say that he is my friend !

Ben

[TCFAN]

Ben
Will it work with a Pat Marlin home made check? How about a Gator check? Great idea............Terry

[Ben]

Terry :

The question is " Will the tool work with brands of g/c's other than Hornady? "

The only other .30 cal. checks that I have on hand right now are .014 " Ameri-max alumimum checks that I made with a Check Maker Tool , made by Pat Marlin.

" Ben's Gas Check Seating Die " works flawlessly with the aluminum ones that I've made.

Here is an aluminum gas check in position in the die :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/019.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/020.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/023.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/024.jpg

[btroj]

Buckshot is to a lathe what Ben is to a camera.

Hats off to both of you for a great idea and beautiful execution. What a great tool.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Ben: great execution I will make one just like it and for exactly the same application.

I also need one for my new oversized .45-300 mould I got back from RCBS. I jsut seated 50 GC's last night and I was using a little dead blow to square up the checks on the oversized shanks before seating them in the size die.

I use a 5 OZ Stanley Dead blow hammer as it is much easier on the die.

They are $12.95 from ENCO right now.

Randy

[Ben]

btroj :

Yes, Buckshot knows how to run a Lathe. He is GOOD ! !
Me and the camera..... well, I'm still learning but thanks for those generous remarks.

Ben
___________________________

Randy:

I wish you well, make all of them you want.
I'd like to ask you to share your results here, if you would ?
I'd be very interesting in seeing some of your work.

Ben

[SSGOldfart]

nice job to both of you

[94Doug]

Nice Ben, you've gone ahead and found other ways to spend my money. I may have a new hp mould that you don't, by the way.....I'll send you a photo soon.


Doug

[SSGOldfart]

Hummmmmmmmmmmmm which HP mould??

[Ben]

Can't wait to see it Doug.

Ben

[riceone]

Ben, you and Buckshot have made a remarkable tool. Good idea and good machining. riceone

[SSGOldfart]

Ben any ideal what this tool is going to run when finished,would tapering the inside provide a cramp instead of using another die in the press?? kinda like a roll cramp used for pistol ammo?? show us a close up of the punch please.

[Ben]

No Bob, I have no idea what Buckshot will be charging for the tool. Mine was a " proto-type " and may not be a reflection of what he will charge to do others ?

No, the tool isn't designed to crimp the g/c into place. I did not want that. It is designed to do one thing , .....that is..... seat a gas check perfectly square each and every time. That it does, and does well. The tool has met and exceeded my expectations.

[WHITETAIL]

Congrats! to both of you.
This is another example of
how great the people on this forum are.
My hat is off to the two of yous.:holysheep

[MikeS]

I have one of NOE's gas check seating dies, and your setup looks like it would have more precision than the NOE tool! So far I've only used Lyman checks, so I don't know how they compare to the Hornady ones, but they work find in the NOE tool, and would probably work even better in a BCST (Ben's Check Seating Tool)! <-- There, it even has a name now! :)

[Ben]

MikeS:

What I like about my current version, the BCST as you have justly named it, is the fact that there is no chance for the bullet to enter the check out of perfect alignment.

I used my tool to load some 06' ammo for my Tikka. It is a little slower than other methods of putting a g/c on the base of the bullet , but it is far more precise.

I shot the group below with bullets g/c'd with my tool.

Ben

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Photo0034.jpg

[gandydancer]

how do I get one GD

[Ben]

gandydancer

Well, you'll need to contact Buckshot, the tool was made with my plans and by my specs that I wrote up and provided Buckshot.

I have no interest in making a single penny from any aspect of this endeavor.

If you want one, you need to contact Buckshot via. PM. No one here on this forum will owe me anything for the use of the plans ( which Rick has now ) and / or their ability to obtain a tool from Rick.

[gandydancer]

I have one of NOE's gas check seating dies, and your setup looks like it would have more precision than the NOE tool! So far I've only used Lyman checks, so I don't know how they compare to the Hornady ones, but they work find in the NOE tool, and would probably work even better in a BCST (Ben's Check Seating Tool)! <-- There, it even has a name now! :)
I may be wrong but I think Lyman GC's are made by Hornady. GD

[Ben]

The new Lyman crimp on style are made by Hornady. The old brass ( non - crimp ) Lymans were not.

[Whiterabbit]

how much force do you use to tap on the GC? Using a light hammer, or are you using a light mallet? It doesn't look like there are any issues with nose deformation.

[adrians]

Great work fella's,, i could use one of those nice tools , great design and a awesome machine work.
if it ever goes into limited production i want to be limited . ;)

:awesome:

[Ben]

Whiterabbit

There is zero nose deformation.

I use a small " tack hammer ".
___________________________

If Buckshot has any interest at all in producing these in volume,
he had never indicated that to me.

If you are serious about getting one, you need to PM
Buckshot to get the ball rolling.

Ben

[RayinNH]

Ben very clever idea. Could that units base be set on top of a Lyman/RCBS sizer die nut and the top punch be in the ram as usual, or is the assembly to tall?

[Ben]

Most likely too tall. You can process them fairly quickly without the Lyman 45.

I have one in .30 cal. and another one in 35 cal.

If I had these two tools 35 years ago, I could have been shooting some fine groups through out all those years. I only wish I'd got access to the tools earlier.

[Crosbyman]

Wish to subscribe to thread

[Whiterabbit]

Click "thread tools" at the top and select "subscribe to this thread"

Now that you've posted, there's no reason to do it because you will only unsubscribe.

[HDS]

I was looking at this thing just now with gas checks and found this thread. I was looking at the top punch I got with my mihec mold. I never use these things because I got a star sizer, but I had issues seating gas checks of aluminum (gators) on my 223 bullets so I got to thinking that what if you put this top punch on one end of a pair of pliers, then a base for the gas check on the other end and lined them up?

1. put gas check in indentation.
2. put bullet nose into the top punch.
3. squeeze!

That's my idea anyway, if I had a gas check base I think I could modify a pair of vise grip pliers or something. Not really a machinist though.

Another variation idea would be to put a tube over the top punch that would cover up all of the bullet, then you'd just orient the pliers with that part facing downwards, drop in a bullet nose first, then a gas check on top, then squeeze it all together. Thanks to the tube you couldn't press the bullet too hard either.

[Whiterabbit]

just be careful or else step three is not "squeeze", it's "swage"

:)

[MT Chambers]

While I different set-up, the NOE tool works very well for me, of course only some bullets need this help, some bullets allow the GC to just snap on and are square, but for those that don't, the NOE tool works.

[TCFAN]

I also have the NOE gas check seating tool. When needed it works good............Terry

[HDS]

just be careful or else step three is not "squeeze", it's "swage"

:)

True that's why I considered adding a metal tube that will fit over the top punch precisely, this would just leave the shank sticking out, so you could not press to hard and defom the bullet.


I was also looking at my lee sizing dies and I noticed the punch for a bigger caliber and it struck me, you could machine a cup into this for the gas check. Then make a die that just holds a lubrisizer top punch, you can screw the die in and out of the press to adjust it to your liking, then just pull the lever. This way you could make any press into a gas check seater. I think it would be a nice use for my little c-frame.


I don't know if it would be better to turn the whole operation upside down though, so you have the top punch on the bottom, then you just place the bullet nose down into the cup, put the gas check on and pull the lever down.

The gas check seating cup would then be in the die instead. The upside of doing it this way is that the cup of the top punch would help hold the bullet up. A potential issue with the earlier setup is that if you can't get the gas check on hard enough to make the bullet stand up on it's own, then you are a bit hosed as it'll e fiddly to get this working fast. By up-ending the setup like this, it shouldn't matter if you just lightly place the check on the shank, you let the cup press it down instead.

[HDS]

Did some more experimenting now. Found this old .44mag/spl die, took out some parts, put them back in a bit differently:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8506/8541711554_8d1e702a03_c.jpg

That's a die with a nose top punch in it, just put it into a press along with a flat base (like the lee sizer punch). This is an example of the first concept I just mentioned in my earlier post, here's the parts:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8382/8540610631_eda95254b6_c.jpg

Now that was the first concept, here's the 2nd and to my mind better idea, the punch is on top:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8228/8540611139_ab04a0b317_c.jpg

Again I use the 44spl die, it's a lee powder through die:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8514/8541713170_ef41165259_c.jpg

Here it is on the press:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8094/8540612021_d3c462e1a6_c.jpg

Pressing a gas check onto the bullet:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8385/8541714218_a0bdf09ed3_c.jpg

It worked real well for something I rigged together in 5 minutes. Obvious improvements would be to mill a GC cup into the punch as well as make it shorter, or remove the expander I got inside the die which will allow the punch to move up & down. This way the die is not long enough to adjust the setup so you can ram the lever all the way down, which would be my preference for consistent pressure.

The top punch could also be modified a bit I think with a lathe, cut off the thicker base portion and size down the circular bit, it should then fit snugly into a number 4 lee shell holder.

[Ben]

Did some more experimenting now. Found this old .44mag/spl die, took out some parts, put them back in a bit differently:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8506/8541711554_8d1e702a03_c.jpg

That's a die with a nose top punch in it, just put it into a press along with a flat base (like the lee sizer punch). This is an example of the first concept I just mentioned in my earlier post, here's the parts:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8382/8540610631_eda95254b6_c.jpg

Now that was the first concept, here's the 2nd and to my mind better idea, the punch is on top:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8228/8540611139_ab04a0b317_c.jpg

Again I use the 44spl die, it's a lee powder through die:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8514/8541713170_ef41165259_c.jpg

Here it is on the press:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8094/8540612021_d3c462e1a6_c.jpg

Pressing a gas check onto the bullet:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8385/8541714218_a0bdf09ed3_c.jpg

It worked real well for something I rigged together in 5 minutes. Obvious improvements would be to mill a GC cup into the punch as well as make it shorter, or remove the expander I got inside the die which will allow the punch to move up & down. This way the die is not long enough to adjust the setup so you can ram the lever all the way down, which would be my preference for consistent pressure.

The top punch could also be modified a bit I think with a lathe, cut off the thicker base portion and size down the circular bit, it should then fit snugly into a number 4 lee shell holder.

One question, what guarantees the bullet is seated into the gas check perfectly square ?

I have no doubt it can seat a gas check, but will it be square ?

I've used every technique known, the problem has always been that some of the checks are always on slightly mis-aligned. Wreaks havoc on your groups.

Notice in the photo below the bullet is such a tight fit in the cylinder as it enters the gas check, there is no room for error.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/014.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/2%20Dollar%20Coffee%20Pot/015.jpg

[HDS]

The solution to that I believe is to make a hole in the upper punch, the diameter of the bullet that'll go into it. It would more or less be the system you use there, upside down and mounted to a press.

[Ben]

The solution to that I believe is to make a hole in the upper punch, the diameter of the bullet that'll go into it. It would more or less be the system you use there, upside down and mounted to a press.

Ok, I'd like to see your " Final Product ", you may be onto something.

Ben

[VHoward]

My idea is to use ben's tool in an arbor press. The arbor press I have has a hole drilled in the ram that could have the nose punch mounted in it. Then you seat the gas check in the way Ben showed except you don't need a hammer.

[Ben]

My idea is to use ben's tool in an arbor press. The arbor press I have has a hole drilled in the ram that could have the nose punch mounted in it. Then you seat the gas check in the way Ben showed except you don't need a hammer.

I like your idea ! !

[HDS]

Ok, I'd like to see your " Final Product ", you may be onto something.

Ben

Hello, I've been experimenting a bit with this since last time and this is more functional than the last time. This is what the die looks like now, the appropriated punch has been drilled and then another smaller hole has been drilled from the top, this smaller hole houses an ejector punch as you can see, it's spring driven so when raising the lever again the bullet is pushed back out:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8507/8599624607_fc064c87b7_c.jpg

Put a gas check on crooked (wouldn't go all the way):
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8109/8599625487_2d1e132b5e_c.jpg

Pushed into the die and back out, it's on straight now:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8106/8600725764_8fae4f78d5_c.jpg

So it seats copper checks real fine, downside, it hangs up on aluminum checks and I have to take it apart and hammer it out, the aluminum check always sticks while the the bullet comes out first. I think it needs to be bigger so it doesn't hang. Ofcourse I could have made it smaller from the start, small enough that it would've sized and crimped the alu-gas check on, but too late for that now.

Work in progress so far really, I want to put a flat base on the ejector punch to make the ejection more straight and avoid a slight mark on the center of the gas check base. Might also help pushing the alu checks out better.

[Whiterabbit]

My idea is to use ben's tool in an arbor press. The arbor press I have has a hole drilled in the ram that could have the nose punch mounted in it. Then you seat the gas check in the way Ben showed except you don't need a hammer.


I like your idea ! !

I actually do not. I tend to cast soft lead. 1:20, 1:10, even "dirty lead" (pure lead that is contaminated thus cheap). A brief rap to a punch with a tiny brass hammer is no harm no foul. But with a press of ANY kind it is very easy to swage such a soft bullet up in diameter. And if you have the bullet in an alignment tool, it can even swell up to fill the aligner. About 1/4" down from the nose is the worst for swelling.

Sure changes a bore riding bullet to an engraved riding bullet!

My hammer is a .75 or 7/8 diameter brass rod cut about 1" long and side drilled for a 3/8" aluminum rod handle 4-5" long. It's cute, it looks like a baby toy. That hammer gets more use in my shop than a framing hammer!



------------


I've even swage-damaged such bullets in a lyman 45 (by mistake) which people tell me is far too weak to do such duty. The hammer seems far less sensitive to damaging bullets, unless I'm REALLY wailing on them.

[winchester 71]

great ideas and inovation!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Good thread with a lot of info and food for thought....Jim