Glocks

[Marlin Junky]

I'm thinking about getting my 5'1" wife a compact 45 auto in either .45GAP or .45ACP. Are these things good/fun cast boolit guns and what would be the best model for a small hand?

MJ

[handyrandyrc]

A GLOCK uses octagonal rifling in their .45 ACP and GAP series. I don't know how well they work with cast. I have shot cast thru a 9mm GLOCK with polygonal barrel, and had severe leading after only 30 rounds.

The GAP might certainly fit her hand better than ACP. The ACP grip on GLOCK models is a bit wider and may not feel "right". Only she can tell you which one is "right" and most comfortable.

I love shooting 45 ACP cast bullets from my XD. Really fun, and works well with cast as it has conventional rifling.

[9.3X62AL]

The 45 ACP Glocks have octagonal/polygonal rifling form--dunno about the 45 GAP. The form in 9mm, 40, and 10mm is hexagonal/polygonal.

I recently finished a 450-shot series of cast boolits in the Glock 21 (full size 45 ACP) with 3 different boolits (BD 45, Lymans #452374 and #452460) sized at the barrel's widest dimension and throat diameter--.453"--just like the recommended practice in conventional groove/land barrels. There was ZERO-ZIP-NADA leading. Alloy was Taracorp (92/6/2). Lube was Javelina. Load intensities varied, from target to +P (BD's @ 925 FPS). I did my best to encourage that tube to lead up--and couldn't make it happen with boolits that fit. There is always the option of aftermarket barrels, but I like to push the envelope once in a while. The Three Rules Of Cast Boolit Hobbycraft--1) Never say NEVER. 2) Never say ALWAYS. 3) SIZE MATTERS.

The Glock 21 grip is good-sized, but Marie thinks it is pretty comfortable. The Glock is without doubt the most controllable 45 ACP I've ever fired, the SIG-Sauer P-220 being "close but not quite". Ditto to having the lady give the grip a test drive at a shop......or, ideally a range sequence with a rental or borrowed example. Sub-compact 45's and I don't get along--the Commander/SIG 220/Glock 21 platform size works lots better for me--but I'm 6'2" and 220#.

[versifier]

She won't have any problem controlling it, if she can get her hand around it. If possible, take her to a show or to a bigger dealer where she can heft a good assortment of Glocks and other pistols to see for herself what feels best in her hand. She'll know right away, and it may or may not be a Glock she likes best. I assume she shoots already and won't go for a pocket pistol or snubbie because it's CUTE. :-? (If she's new to shooting handguns, IMO you would be smarter to look for a .22 like a Ruger MKII or a .38 revolver you can load down - Ruger SecuritySix's have about the smallest grips.)

[lastmanout]

After many years of shooting wheelguns and a few 1911's-- NOT-- wanting to like Glocks, I traded into a used 45 GAP (model 37-not a compact) saleman's demo. The price was under $400. I promptly loaded it with H&G #130 cast SWC 190 grain sized .452" made of WW alloy. That was 2000 rounds ago. No problems with it or the 9mm that I got later. Accuracy can be very respectable, and when "going fast" it is the easiest pistol I have ever shot. It takes a really bad handload to make it jam. The rifling of the 45 acp amd 45 Gap is the same-probably made with the same tooling. It is a very smooth (if odd) bore and cleans up easily. I NEVER shoot more than 100 rounds without checking/cleaning the barrel for build-up. None so far. The GAP is kinda a mutant mut- the barrel and slide are same width as a 45acp/10mm and the frame is a 9mm/40. The smaller frame fits my medium size hands much better. The larger slide is used to enhance longevity over the 40s&w. The 40 equals the 45's in upper-end loads using velocity and more pressure. I have owned a few 40's and they all went down the road. The factory twist is not the best for cast lead IMO, and the 40's have a bad reputation with handloads. Glock themselves FORBID use of handloads. Oh well. :castmine: I really like the GAP idea. It is a small, reliable package shooting a respectable weight 45 diameter slug with less muzzle blast and flip than a 40 in 9mm size. I CAN shoot the 9mm faster,but, for close up defense ,I like the bigger hole better.Doesn't take much powder either. Other pistols to consider are the Springfeild XD and the new Smith and Wesson M&P auto. The Glock is by far the most popular. They ain't pretty, but they sure do work:Fire: More info is over at GlockTalk.com. Hope this helps-Tim

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks for the input. I'm also considering a smaller Kimber. Even though a wheel gun would probably be a better choice to teach her handgun marksmanship, I want to get her something that will be easy to pack about town and have plenty of fire-power without horrendous muzzle blast; i.e., no 5-shot .357 stubbies. Naturally, the piece needs to handle cast boolits very well... and probably needs to be a .45.

MJ

[Dale53]

We used to have a little girl in our club (17 or so and about 4' 11" tall) that shot a 1911 extremely well. She shot herself into "B" Class in IPSC when IPSC was a martial art.

I am a 1911 man and if that little girl could shoot one so well, I don't see how any grown woman would have a problem with it if she worked at it.

Kimber makes FINE .45's, in my opinion. My current carry gun is a 3" Kimber .45 ACP (I don't necessarily recommend a 3" for someone who is recoil conscious). The commander or full size would probably be a better choice.

The new Taurus 1911 is one heck of a value right now. It has most of the bells and whistles and actually sells for less than some basic 1911's.

Good luck with whatever direction you go.

Dale53

[mtngunr]

Personally, I think every Glock owner should go to the below listed site, and especially all potential reloaders of Glocks should read through it, including all linked addendums, also the second page of pictures which also has a photostat of a flash from a PD, and the history of these problems and how Glock did or didn't address them...... http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I've been to that site mtngunr, and there is a lot of "scare tactics" there. I'm not saying that these things haven't happened somewhere, but not in my experiences with my Glock. The writer of these things is a known "glockophobe", so take the words for what they are worth.

Don't just stick with the full sized Glocks either. My 36 was the nicest packing pistol I've ever owned, PERIOD. 7 rounds of 45ACP is nothing to sneeze at either. 8 if you get one of the mag extensions from Pearce... And mine was as reliable as my revolvers...couldn't get it to misfire/FTF/FTE unless I severly limpwristed the pistol. And then it was about to the point where it wanted to jump out of my hand. And fed anything and everything I could stick into it. No leading probs.


Just plain stupidity why I don't have that one any more...

[mtngunr]

I've been to that site mtngunr, and there is a lot of "scare tactics" there. I'm not saying that these things haven't happened somewhere, but not in my experiences with my Glock. The writer of these things is a known "glockophobe", so take the words for what they are worth.


I also note many other worthy quotes or data sent in by knowledgeable folk like Hackathorn, Farnam, Rauch, James and LaRocca, etc......the "upgrade" page tells a lot all by itself.....even Hodgdon singles out Glock in their manual....as does MagSafe ammo.....clearly, more than just Speir thinks Glocks might have a few problems, especially for the reloader, which is the point of this post.....

[45r]

I bought the cheapest kimber I could get to have an auto to go with my revolvers and totally amazed myself and another revolver shooter when I shot a 2 and a half inch group at 50 yards with it.the first 3 looked like a 3 leaf clover.We both were very impressed with that kimber 45 acp.Kimbers was recommended by a gunsmith and I'm glad I got the one I got.I thought only custom 45s shot that good.Maybe I got lucky but I sure like autos a lot more than I use to.If I get another auto it will be a Kimber for sure.

[Larry Gibson]

AAAAAAhhhhhhhhh....the Kimber, I feel better now. How sveldt with smooth classic lines, just feels good to look at them.......The Glock - it's so like, butt ugly!

Larry Gibson

[9.3X62AL]

Butt ugly is as butt ugly does.......mine works fine with both real and faux boolits, just like SIGs, Berettas, S&Ws, Colts, and CZs. Load good ammo, use boolits that fit, and all will be well. SIZE MATTERS.

[KCSO]

Glocks are used by PD's more than any other gun for the same reason that DA revolvers hung on so long... Simplicity. No buttons to push no bell no whistles, just point and pull the trigger. I shoot and carry either a High Power or a 1911 and have done so for more than 30 years, but for a new shooter, or a shooter that doesn't like to train you can't beat a Glock style gun. In a stress moment the only thing you will remember is what you have taught your muscles with countless reps. The less there is to remember the better your chances, so IF you are willinng to train and practice and keep it up over time get a 1911. If you are going to go out twice a year and shoot a box of shells go with the Glock stlye OR a good double action revolver. I still think that 99% of what a home defence gun needs to do can be done quite well with a d/a revolver. For a new shooter or a non dedicated shooter first find what fits and then make it as simple as can be, you can always get fancy later when the bug bites and the shooter is ready and willing to put in the hours.

[9.3X62AL]

Lottsa wisdom one post above this one.

[mtngunr]

I think the main reasons the Glock became the latest craze is due to shrewd marketing, and not any inherent superiority.....there is nothing new in the Glock design....it works on standard Browning principles.
Glock knew if they could get a large share of the police market, the public market was sure to follow, again, nothing new, and the public market was where they'd be able to make serious money on a gun that was MUCH cheaper to produce as the gullible public would pay machined-steel prices and more (and did)....to that end, they promised department administrators in large cities greatly reduced wrongful death lawsuits, along with supplying the guns at unheard of low contract prices combined with what amounted to free replacement for the duration of the contract. Administrators are not shooters, they are budget conscious upper management, and they flocked to Glock in droves, whether the gun was truly superior or not a secondary issue, if it even entered their minds at all.
Combine the above with a blizzard of advertising supported and driven gun magazines where almost every writer received one for evaluation, and where poor evaluation resulted in pulled advertising dollars (this happened to American Handgunner back when they were more objective), and you have enough hype to sell coal to Newcastle.
Surely, the Glock was a novel design for its time, and established quite a reputation for itself with the 9mm's, and perhaps deservedly so, but it's hard to seperate the hype from the facts....I surely like the feel of the little sucker, almost toy-like....I buy guns to last a lifetime and more, so I never got around to buying one, though, thinking that like disposable cars, if we all start buying stamped metal and plastic guns, pretty soon, that's all we'll have available, and at prices we used to pay for machined steel forgings (which seems to be happening).......I haven't changed my mind on this.....I think plastic guns are the best form of gun control out there, because earlier gun styles can be nearly immortal fired for a lifetime or two or three and still be out there working long after some law has made them illegal, but if anyone believes any plastic will last like that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.
AND, I still urge EXTREME caution to those of you who reload for Glocks, due to the large unsupported case head reveal, and most especially to those of you accustomed to getting lots of reloads out of a case......you might want to rethink that practice....

[9.3X62AL]

Duly noted, MtnGunr. I'll watch this one closely, and your impressions are much like my own concerning plastic vs. forged steel. "We'll see", in other words. I do like how the pistol has performed to date, and how several hundred of them at my old agency have held up (16 years and counting). In conversations with our armory staff, the Glocks suffer about the same percentage of downtime for the same reasons as S&W, SIG, Beretta, H&K, and Walther pistols. That might fly in the face of Internet Ninja Soldier diatribe, but there it is there.

[KCSO]

The hardest thing for any gunnie to do is not let personal prejudice intrude when you are giving advice to others. What is right for me may not be right for you. I'll come right out and say it,"For me Glocks SUCK'. But if that is the gun that makes my partner happy, fits his hand or that HE BELIEVES will save his life than that is what he should carry. I work with two combat vets and one thinks the M16 was the best thing since sliced bread and the other threw his away and picked up an AK. Both lived through combat tours in the same theater, who is right? Here's a guy who wants to buy his wife a gun, with no information on how often and how well she shoots and how she is built all we can do is offer options. Since the Glock is being looked at it seems that there might be some reason. I know that for some smaller individuals the Glock fits and for some not. If this person were in my area and asked I would do what I did for our support personell. I would take her to the range with a box full of guns and let her shoot them all and then look at and analyze targets and see what gun she would need based on ability and ergonomics. The vast majority of folks I have had to the range in recent years prefered a Glock like gun for the high firepower and the simplicity. My last session had 14 Glocks on the line against 5 of everythinng else. All qualified with over 85% ratings and all went home confident in their abilities and thea CONFIDENT is all that counts. The BEST shot in our region still uses his M19 and outscored EVERYONE else including me shooting my custom 1911. Who am I to say he would be better off with a... And who cares if 50 years from now the gun breaks or he can't get parts. I only put in my 2 cents as I thought the thread was going a little towards what I carry vrs. what this gal might need.

[mtngunr]

Back to the topic, then, of the compact gun, I'd worry a compact .45ACP might not be fun for some shooters, especially a half-plastic one.....I also generally advise a full-sized auto for best reliability (more slide mass/lighter springs), and for cheaper spring R&R (compacts often have fancy/expensive dual-captive springs), and generally easier takedown.....I've never seen much use for the GAP round, and predict brass will be harder to find as time goes on......and I am in no way Anti-Glock-pistol.....I disagree with the company's way it did what I think should have been a recall, and some of the chamberings quite frankly scare me what with the casehead exposure, but I actually like the gun in many ways.....if I ever come across a beater 9mm at a good price, I'll probably jump on it hard, and then use it hard.....

[9.3X62AL]

There's nothing like a range time test drive, for sure.

[Larry Gibson]

Butt ugly is as butt ugly does.......mine works fine with both real and faux boolits, just like SIGs, Berettas, S&Ws, Colts, and CZs. Load good ammo, use boolits that fit, and all will be well. SIZE MATTERS.

Now Deputy Al, did I say Glocks didn't shoot fine or aren't good guns....no I didn't. I'll admit to shooting several, even with cast bullets. All I said is they are butt ugly, they really are! Got ya...he, he....

Larry Gibson

[ELFEGO BACA]

I've had a few Glocks - 22, 21, and 23. I have shot cast bullets in all of them without a problem due to cast bullets. Their was little or no leading, in fact the barrels cleaned up easier than the typical rifled barrel. I did have functioning problems with my 21 but that was due to some faulty Clinton era magazines that came with the Glock. After Glock replaced them with a 'newer' version of the Clinton magazines no problems occurred.