Weak .45acp loads. Advice needed!

[The Amateur]

I went shooting last weekend and had a disappointing time with my .45acp.
Here are the stats: bbl-5.25", 18lbs slide spring, 3.5gr of Hodgdon Universal Clays, Lee TL 230gr with standard OAL, Federal large magnum primers.
Symptoms: little to no recoil, minimal slide blowback, orange powder ash all over the place, variable accuracy.

I'm thinking the primer is pushing the boolit too far before the powder ignites.
I loaded my 9mm rounds with the same 3.5gr of powder and small mag. primers.
They performed flawlessly and burned unexpectedly clean!
Magnum primers is all I could find at the time so...

I have about 100-150 of the .45 rounds left; is there anything I can do to "fix" these?
I'm looking forward to y'alls posts.

[littlejack]

Amateur:
Welcome to the CastBoolits.
I use the Hodgdon Universal for some of my heavy 45 acp loads.
Now, the question is, is that the Hodgdon Universal or the Universal Clays you are using? I
do not use the Universal Clays.
I believe that the "names were changed to protect the innocent" so to speak.
Can you clarify for sure, what powder you are using.
Jack

[reload68]

Can't speak to using titeclays but my favorite lite load is 3.6 grns of bullseye under a 200 gr swc. No function problems whatsoever & single hole accuracy at 15 yds. Get a bullet puller and save the bullets. Std large pistol primers are all you need for fast powders.

[The Amateur]

It's the Hodgdon Universal Clay's. This has caused me great cornfusion when looking at load data.

[littlejack]

I looked up the starting load that is on the Hodgdon reloading site. With a 230 grain lrn, the starting load listed is 4.5 grains for a little over 700 fps. I would say that your load of 3.5 grains of Universal is too light. You need more powder to bring things up to a
"working pressure", otherwise you will get erratic ignition, unburnt powder, which you discribed as orange powder ash, probably lousy
accuracy, and ftf and or fte with your weapon.
The Hodgdon site did have the International Clays, the Universal Clays, and the Clays listed as "Clays" powders. I believe you and I are
talking about the same powder, "Universal".
Look up the Hodgdon site and check for yourself.
Do not take a strangers word for what you are looking for in a load or powder charges. Do
some research on these things for yourself.
Jack

[Mk42gunner]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I think you are going to have to pull those rounds down.

I looked on Hodgdon's website and both volumes of Lee's reloading manual and didn't any data for a 230 gr .45 with that low of a powder charge. convenience of not changing the powder measure is not a reason to use the load.

Also, I understand using what primers you have; but there is no way the .45 ACP needs a magnum primer, there are people on here that don't even use them for .44 Magnums.

Good Luck,

Robert

[runfiverun]

i don't think i even have any magnum large pistol primers.
if you got universal clays powder your load is definately too low.
airc 3.4 of the faster clays [regular] is a max load in the 357 with a 360 gr boolit.
universal is closer to unique in speed which would put your 3.4 closer to a 9mm or 38 special load.

[The Amateur]

I looked up the starting load that is on the Hodgdon reloading site. With a 230 grain lrn, the starting load listed is 4.5 grains for a little over 700 fps. I would say that your load of 3.5 grains of Universal is too light. You need more powder to bring things up to a
"working pressure", otherwise you will get erratic ignition, unburnt powder, which you discribed as orange powder ash, probably lousy
accuracy, and ftf and or fte with your weapon.
The Hodgdon site did have the International Clays, the Universal Clays, and the Clays listed as "Clays" powders. I believe you and I are
talking about the same powder, "Universal".
Look up the Hodgdon site and check for yourself.
Do not take a strangers word for what you are looking for in a load or powder charges. Do
some research on these things for yourself.
Jack
I used the Hodgdon website to find the starting load info before I loaded these rounds.
When you select "Clay's" it gives a value of 3.5gr and 716fps.
If "Universal" is selected, 4.5gr and 703fps.

Try it, you will understand the problem...

I KNOW magnum primers are not correct for this round. As I stated, this is what was available to me at the time. My quest is to more fully understand what is going on during the firing cycle. Is this is a problem with the Hodgdon site not being clear or the mechanical aspect of my theory stated in my original post?

I have the powder in front of me now. It says in bold print: UNIVERSAL and just under that: Clays Technology in white on green.

So... what data do I follow? Universal or Clays...
If its Universal, then yes it is too weak. I have associates that load this powder at 3.5gr and it works fine for them. That is how the primer theory was formulated.

[NickSS]

My guess is that you need more powder. I do not use the powder you are using but I do load 45 ACP a lot and generally use either WST or Unique. With a 200 gr bullet I use either 4.7 gr of WST or 5.5 gr of Unique. Both these loads are fairly snappy loads as I do not bulls eye shoot and go for more powerful loadings.

[littlejack]

Amateur:
You are correct, that the magnum primers are not the appropriate primers for this cartridge. I will say, that you are not the first or will you be the last person to use said magnum primers when nothing else was available. It is not a big mistake, considering the amount of powder and particular powder you are using. You are well under the place that would put you in danger. There have been many reloaders that had to use magnum primers, for what ever reason, when also wanting to approach maximum power loads that did so. Their approach was to drop one full grain of powder to make up for the magnum primer they were going to use.
As far as the loads you have left? You may choose to shoot them, being careful to make sure that the boolits clear the muzzle when each round is fired. You said that the handgun DID function but had "minimal slide blowback". You may decide to bury them. You may decide to pull the boolits. All is your choice.
From your discription of the name on the container, you do have the Universal powder. As stated, it IS very close to Unique in burn rate but just a shade faster. It is a fine (good) powder. It meters better than Unique and is cleaner burning.
Do NOT use the CLAYS reloading data. Use the data for the powder you are using. Universal.
If you think you may have a problem identifying this powder in the future, you may want to switch to a different powder. All the best.
Jack

[The Amateur]

I'll probably just run through these last rounds to get rid of them. The light recoil should help me practice my shooting fundamentals and mechanics without the recoil distraction.

My next visit to the local supplier will hopefully yield a better primer selection.
Universal it is. I will add a grain more powder and hope for the best.

Even though my accuracy with this ammo wasn't up to my standards, last weekend I was able to chase a coke can across the ground at 25-30 yards and hit it 8 out of 10 shots. I did have to rack the slide manually after each and every shot. That really didn't help my accuracy either.

Thanks for the help and happy shooting!

[randyrat]

Providing you are well under any danger with your load and you didn't crimp, just smoothed out the bell when you seated your boolits..
To get them to work a little better. Seat them a tad deeper and it will increase pressure.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

As suggested above, I recomend you pull the bullets and re-load. I would not shot them, chance of a squib sticking in barrel goes up with underpower loads. Any little problem in your original reloading could cause bad thing to happen.
That said, I was given a can of Universal Clays, had the same confusion on load data and will never use that powder again.
Clays, Unique, Red Dot and or Green Dot are my powders of choice at this time.

Remember, a 9mm load will not be a good 45 ACP load, it is a 9mm load.
Which Reloading Manual do you have? Get a 2nd and compare. Don't just beleive the internet. I cross sheck two printed manuals and then look at internet data from the powder manufacturer.
CF

Good Luck

[parisite]

45acp caliber is much more well suited for a faster burning powder. Yes Universal will work and work best at its listed max. But change powders, it'll make a world of difference.

[Moonman]

Please get REAL RELOADING info from Manuals, Bullet Manufactures, Powder Manufacturers.
Starting out you should verify your load with more than one source, and keep records of your loads and results with YOUR FIREARMS. The INTERNET loading advise of some can lead you into trouble.

[ColColt]

"Universal" clays works great with the 200 gr SWC. I use 6 grains of it and get superb groups and no problems with recycling with the standard 16# spring in the SW1911. Hodgdon makes Universal(or Universal Clays...same thing). Clays is NOT the same.

If you like it and want to use Universal as it's a good substitute for Unique, I'd try 5.0-5.2 gr of it and you'll have better results with the 230 gr LRN boolit. Check several reloading sources first.

One other thing about magnum primers in this caliber. As mentioned, it's not needed. I shoot 8.2 gr of HS-6 and they're recommended with this powder but I haven't seen the necessity of it and not all manuals will indicated it's usage.

[9.3X62AL]

Just for the record......that Hodgdon powder nomenclature is confusing as h--l to me, and I've been refilling cartridges/shells since 1971. I won't buy or use powder I can't readily identify on sight.

[Willbird]

Honestly I do not find the Hogdon powders confusing

Clays
Universal

Two different powders, International is not recommended for use in pistols by Hodgon, you CAN find data if you look hard...they DO use it(under another name) in pistols in Aussie land apparently where the powder is made.

[subsonic]

Honestly I do not find the Hogdon powders confusing

Clays
Universal

Two different powders, International is not recommended for use in pistols by Hodgon, you CAN find data if you look hard...they DO use it(under another name) in pistols in Aussie land apparently where the powder is made.

Speaking of that, I was give a pound of TiteWad and I don't really shoot much shotgun. Do you know what ADI powder is equivalent to it and whether or not it will work in any handgun rounds? Seems awfully fast...

[The Amateur]

Please get REAL RELOADING info from Manuals, Bullet Manufactures, Powder Manufacturers.
Starting out you should verify your load with more than one source, and keep records of your loads and results with YOUR FIREARMS. The INTERNET loading advise of some can lead you into trouble.

That's what I did!
I know WHAT went wrong, I want to know WHY it went wrong.

[The Amateur]

Providing you are well under any danger with your load and you didn't crimp, just smoothed out the bell when you seated your boolits..
To get them to work a little better. Seat them a tad deeper and it will increase pressure.

Sounds interesting and I have thought about doing this on my next batch.
Thanks for the advice, it gives me a little validation for a go-ahead on the existing rounds.
From the way they were performing, it doesn't seem like they would need much more to rack the slide.

[The Amateur]

Amateur:
You are correct, that the magnum primers are not the appropriate primers for this cartridge. I will say, that you are not the first or will you be the last person to use said magnum primers when nothing else was available. It is not a big mistake, considering the amount of powder and particular powder you are using. You are well under the place that would put you in danger. There have been many reloaders that had to use magnum primers, for what ever reason, when also wanting to approach maximum power loads that did so. Their approach was to drop one full grain of powder to make up for the magnum primer they were going to use.
As far as the loads you have left? You may choose to shoot them, being careful to make sure that the boolits clear the muzzle when each round is fired. You said that the handgun DID function but had "minimal slide blowback". You may decide to bury them. You may decide to pull the boolits. All is your choice.
From your discription of the name on the container, you do have the Universal powder. As stated, it IS very close to Unique in burn rate but just a shade faster. It is a fine (good) powder. It meters better than Unique and is cleaner burning.
Do NOT use the CLAYS reloading data. Use the data for the powder you are using. Universal.
If you think you may have a problem identifying this powder in the future, you may want to switch to a different powder. All the best.
Jack

THANK YOU!!!
I did enjoy what this powder had to offer in my 9mm loads.
The only "fouling" in my barrel after 50 rounds was boolit lube (45-45-10).
They did smoke quite a bit more and smelled like unscented candles.
Mild recoil, accuracy as good as factory FMJ loads and MUCH CHEAPER!

I fired about half of my .45 rounds as it was getting late and I needed to pack up.
I had NO FTF and only FTE with this ammo.
I was quite surprised that they would exceed 120yrds. in distance.

[Moondawg]

Besides your light load, you are using an excessively heavy recoil spring. The standard 1911 was designed to function properly with a 16# recoil spring, with military hardball. Military hardball loads are about as hot as you want to go with an unsupported chamber. Using an 18# spring is just adding to the battering your frame receives when the slide returns to battery. 18# recoil spring is correct if you are shooting a commander or one of the short slide 1911 models. On a regular slide version a 16# is more than adequate, If you are shooting light or midrange loads, a 14 or 15# might be even better.

[Char-Gar]

just like the others said..

1. To little powder
2. Wrong primer

3. Taper crimp please

Do the above and your problems wil go away.

[scrapcan]

Moondawg,

I am glad you mentioned the recoil spring. That would also be an option to get the arm to cycle. It will likely not help in the consistent and reliable burn department though.

[Beau Cassidy]

3.6 grains of clays is my go to load for a 200 grain bullet but it needs a much lighter spring. Mine is an 11 lb. It is a terribly accurate load in everything I shoot it in. The brass doesn't go far either. I just ran off about 3,000 rounds of that load.

[gray wolf]

Well I am glad someone finally mentioned the 18 pound spring,
and it was mentioned with the best of detail.
With a light load like that you are probly getting a short slide function.
Your slamming the round home and getting week slide movement to the rear.
( = FTE ) if your pistol will not work with a 16 pound recoil spring and ball ammo
fix whats wrong and don't over spring the pistol.
If your shooting Mouse loads spring the pistol accordingly for the load you are using. Do you have drag marks on the fired primers from the firing pin ?
The pin strike should be nice and round with no little tail going up.
If you do the pistol is not timed correctly.

[ItZaLLgooD]

Hodgdon usually has some load data right on the container. It seems like you figured out which powder you have. Your lucky you didn't get it mixed up the other way around.

Even though the closest range to me is 20 miles away, I won't load up more than 5 rounds for a test run.