hunting alloy

[frontloader]

hello folks. this alabama whitetail deer season il be hunting with a clements custom large frame vaquero 45 colt.5.5 in bbl. hey that man does great work!! my load will be accuate arms mold 340 gr fn/ gc behind lilgun powder for 1125 fps. very accurate.the boolit alloy is 20 to 1 tin to pure lead W/BHN of 8. all shots will be from a rest at less than 50 yards. more like 30 or 40 yards. my limit not the guns. sooooo the question is ,is the alloy too soft? to much expansion? what about a shoulder shot (bone) ?will the boolit shatter?or shed to much weight . what are ur thoughts or expernices . i know u guys are the best of the best when it comes to this boolit alloy stuff. i await to read your wisdom....thank u all. frontloader

[clodhopper]

Your alloy should work just fine. At 1150 fps 20-1 is not to soft for deer.
You might want a hard bullet for grizzly bears, cape buffalo and such.

[fredj338]

I would say it's likely too hard for good expansion as a solid @ an impact vel less than 1100fps. I use 25-1 in a LHP & it stays together well @ 1000fps, even to 1200fps.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-268-1K.jpg [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272-1K.jpg

[frontloader]

I would say it's likely too hard for good expansion as a solid @ an impact vel less than 1100fps. I use 25-1 in a LHP & it stays together well @ 1000fps, even to 1200fps.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-268-1K.jpg [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272-1K.jpg

sooo wut to do?less tin? i want some expansion. with out shattering on bone. with complete pass through at my distance of 50 yards or less. nice pics fred. thanks

[runfiverun]

for soft tissue shots and max expansion 30-1 is great.
25-1 is a good compromise between too soft for penetration and too hard for mush.
try some of your 20-1 in a milk jug or four at 30 yds and see how it reacts.
you are looking for a balance, the 20-1 will penetrate through the body.
will it punch a leg bone?
i bet it will punch a high shoulder shot easily enough.
a good flat point will do damage through the lungs and ribs without smushing much.
i use a ww and lead mix that is approximately the same bhn as 25-1 for my deer hunting in revolver cartridges.
no hollow point necessary.

[DanWalker]

I use gallon milk jugs and wet phone books to test the on game performance of my boolits. Soak 2 1inch thick phone books overnight. Put one in front of the gallon jug full of water, and put one behind it. This is the best simulation I've found. Shoot this setup at whatever you feel your minimum and maximum ranges will be.
Pay close attention to the size of the exit wound on the milk jug and the entrance wound on the wet phonebook behind it. They will tell you if your boolit is too hard, and just pencils through. If it is too soft and comes apart inside the jug, that will be evident as well. ANY load that exits the back of the second phone book is a lethal load, that will put game on the ground in pretty short order.
My opinion (for what it is worth) is that your load should do well. One thing that seems to really put critters down faster with cast boolits is to make sure you get at least one shoulder when you shoot them. Punching through an onside shoulder or out an offside shoulder seems to dramatically increase the shock effect on them.

[Lloyd Smale]

Elmer keith used that alloy for alot of his bullets and hunting and if it as good enough for him------

[frontloader]

mr smale#1 on that. dan walker. im going to try the phone books and water jug test first of the week . see what happens. will report back. thank you guys

[frontloader]

hello folks. and update. i done as dan walker suggested.soaked 3 phone books in water.1 in phone book (lots thicker when wet) 1 gallon milk jug full of water and 3 in of wet book and all bound together. shot from 25 yds.went through first book milk jug exploded and exited the 3in phone book behind jug. the exit hole was about 2 in across.sooooo.needed more books.no wet ones ready. so i set up the same shot again with another full one gallon jug. 1" wet boot + gallon jug + 3" of wet book + 4" of dry news print. found the 340 gr boolit in first inch of dry news print. boolit weighted 338 grains with gas check still intact. nose of boolit was sheared on one side to last lube groove.expaned to .978. WOW. I gotta figure this pic thang out....... so what do u think?..frontloader

[white eagle]

sounds like a winner

[DanWalker]

How big was the exit hole on the first phone book? I don't worry about catching boolits. I want to see an exit hole. Any decent hunting load WILL exit. A 2" exit sounds kinda small, after penetrating that much stuff. If your allow is really 8BHN, then I'm sure you'll be ok. I killed an antelope a couple weeks ago with the same alloy hardness, at nearly the same velocity. Here's a pic of the hole I punched in her lungs.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/crowshooter223/DSCF2556.jpg
The idea is to have a LARGE exit hole from the first phone book, going into the water jug. You want rapid expansion without too much fragmentation. We're attempting to duplicate a nosler partition here. They expand rapidly, then penetrate out the other side. We want as big a frontal area on that boolit as we can get, as rapidly as we can get it. You only have maybe an inch of tissue to penetrate on a broadside shot before you're into the lungs, which are mostly empty and offer very little resistance. Sorry if I sound condescending. Hunting in Alabama, I'm sure you have probably killed more deer before you were 20 than most people will in their entire lives. I'm just trying to share what I've learned through bitter experience, shooting antelope and deer and hogs, with cast boolits.

[RobS]

Depending on the meplat diameter of the boolit and considering it is a 45 caliber 340 grain solid traveling along at 1125fps there might not need to be that much expansion. Another thing to consider is too much expansion with too much velocity could be a bad thing resulting in unnecessary meat damage. A phone book test does show expansion, however it isn't even close to flesh, muscle, organs which are highly concentrated with water. A totally different shockwave results when a boolit hits tissue.

Considering the anticipated distance of 30 to 40 yards max along with the soft lead of 8 BHN I would slow it down to around 950-1000 fps to provide more dwell time and change the forward pressure/shock wave. Additionally the slower velocity will result in less recoil.

[DanWalker]

Depending on the meplat diameter of the boolit and considering it is a 45 caliber 340 grain solid traveling along at 1125fps there might not need to be that much expansion. Another thing to consider is too much expansion with too much velocity could be a bad thing resulting in un-nessary meet damage.

Considering the anticipated distance of 30 to 40 yards max along with the soft lead of 8 BHN I would slow it down to around 950-1000 fps to provide more dwell time and change the forward pressure/shock wave. Additionally the slower velocity will result in less recoil.

I have to disagree, respectfully of course sir.
8 bhn is plenty hard enough for quite a bit more velocity, provided accuracy stays acceptable.
There just isn't enough critter there (alabama whitetail) to cause boolit failure, unless he tries a texas heart shot, and even then I'd still doubt it.
I wouldn't drop below about 1000 fps either. Based on what I've seen, there's something that happens at this velocity and above. It's some sort of a performance threshold. I'm not entirely sure what's going on, but I can tell you that there is most definately a decrease in lethal effect when you go slower. The critters still die, but they can sometimes take a bit longer to do it. If he's getting accuracy at this level, I say go for it.
And, to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, here are some pics to back up what I'm saying.
First, Here's a swcHP cast at bhn 8 recovered from an antelope last year. The shot was quartering at a bit over 100 yards. MV was around 900 fps.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/crowshooter223/DSCF2253.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/crowshooter223/DSCF2254.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/crowshooter223/RUGERGOAT21010.jpg

Next is some pics I took of some testing I did a few years ago, with a boolit that I've killed quite a bit of stuff with.
It's a LEE 300 grain wfngc. It was around 9-10 bhn, but was being pushed at 1500 fps from a carbine. Distance to target was 50 yards.
The phonebook on the left shows the entrance wound. The ruptured gallon jug is laying to the side, and the entrance wound on the book on the right is after the boolit had passed through the first book and the jug of water.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/crowshooter223/STUFF4005.jpg

Next are a couple pics of a boolit recovered, after passing through that media and bouncing off of the hardpan behind it.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/crowshooter223/STUFF4007.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/crowshooter223/STUFF4008.jpg

[RobS]

DanWalker:
No, I'm not saying that his BHN isn't hard enough, I was saying that with such a large meplat (.33-.34") there really isn't much need for the expansion at the velocity he is pushing and he may end up with meat damage with so much expansion (.978"). As you stated though a deer doesn't have much to say to a 340 grain solid coming along at 1125 fps, but for those that posted up HP pics then yes a soft boolit of 8 BHN at such velocity could lead wash the meat from entrance hole to exit hole.

Personally, I would use an 18 BHN 45 cal boolit with a 72% to 80% meplat and push it out at 1200-1250 fps and let the wide meplat create the forward hydraulic like shockwave which create nice wound channels on deer without the fragmentation nor the deformation issues if hit bone; straight forward penetration.

[DanWalker]

I have witnessed the hydraulic effect you describe. At velocities above 1300 fps there is often a jet of blood from the entrance wound at impact, which I beleive is caused by this effect. I agree the load you suggest will get it done. I've fired those rock hard boolits at those velocities and beyond. They do kill, but I have often found them lacking, especially on broadside shots on smaller animals like whitetails. I don't think it's a coincidence that so many of the people that espouse hard boolits also suggest raking or quartering shots. I think wound channels are all about surface area. The more surface area your wound has, the quicker the animal will succumb(provided the wound damages vital organs sufficiently.)
You can do it either by making a long, realatively narrow hole which goes diagonally through the animal, or you can do it by making a larger diameter hole which bisects from shoulder to shoulder.
I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to talk down to anyone. I'm really enjoying this topic, and hope to learn from everyone's experiences. I think it is a subject that really needs a lot more discussion and exploration, than it has had.

[runfiverun]

i doubt his 20-1 is 8 bhn more like 12.
the velocity window you talk about there dan is approx the mach one [speed of sound] barrier and the boolit is being buffeted from minute one.
i'll still go with the 10-12 bhn at 1200-1600 fps a flat faced boolit and two holes.
that spurt you describe is caused by air being pulled into the animal behind and to the side of the boolit.

[fredj338]

Depending on the meplat diameter of the boolit and considering it is a 45 caliber 340 grain solid traveling along at 1125fps there might not need to be that much expansion. Another thing to consider is too much expansion with too much velocity could be a bad thing resulting in unnecessary meat damage. A phone book test does show expansion, however it isn't even close to flesh, muscle, organs which are highly concentrated with water. A totally different shockwave results when a boolit hits tissue.
.
While not flesh, co0mpletely soaked phone books or news print is a very acceptable choice, equal to expensive & finciky ballistic gel IME. Bullets I have pulled from game have looked amazingly like bullets pulled from properly soaked wetpack. Penetration varies, about 75% of gello, but again, acceptable for bullet comparisons. You tell me which is wetpack & which is from the animal.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSCN0551.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/210GRNP.jpg

[frank505]

Wet paper is very close to shooting into animals. Add some bone in front of the water jug and it will start to beat up a bullet. Let us all remember he is shooting a deer for crying out load. Not too much there compared to elk or buffalo.

[RobS]

While not flesh, co0mpletely soaked phone books or news print is a very acceptable choice, equal to expensive & finciky ballistic gel IME. Bullets I have pulled from game have looked amazingly like bullets pulled from properly soaked wetpack. Penetration varies, about 75% of gello, but again, acceptable for bullet comparisons. You tell me which is wetpack & which is from the animal.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSCN0551.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/210GRNP.jpg

The expansion is what it is and it's dependent on variables of course. I am simple talking about the two mediums of wet soaked newspaper/phone book etc. vs tissue and how the hydraulic shockwave is different between the two. A person shooting wet pack won't see the same destruction or lack there of depending on the situatuon on the paper as they would see with similar expansion/velocity on an animal. Great amounts of expansion diameter i.e. almost one inch in the original posters thread could very well destroy meat if in fact it expands that much on a deer at the velocities he is after.

[DanWalker]

The expansion is what it is and it's dependent on variables of course. I am simple talking about the two mediums of wet soaked newspaper/phone book etc. vs tissue and how the hydraulic shockwave is different between the two. A person shooting wet pack won't see the same destruction or lack there of depending on the situatuon on the paper as they would see with similar expansion/velocity on an animal. Great amounts of expansion diameter i.e. almost one inch in the original posters thread could very well destroy meat if in fact it expands that much on a deer at the velocities he is after.
It may destroy meat, but I'd contend that is the whole point. Yes, if he shoots the deer through a ham, he will ruin more meat. He shoots it through the lungs, and he destroys bigger portions of the lungs. I've never seen bloodshot meat from handgun cartridges shooting cast boolits. I see more meat ruined from bone shrapnel.

[RobS]

DanWalker:
We all see things in different light which is just fine and dandy. I will tell you this, if I seen the buck I was after I would want the boolit combination that would give me the most possible ways to efficiently take down the animal. I know the likelihood of a perfect broadside shot isn't always there so I shoot the boolit/velocties I do for that reason.

Should I have to take those less than perfect scenario shots, I know I can bust through bone, run through other tissue and have a better chance of my boolit traveling straight ahead and taking out vitals without making a total mess of things. I also have very good wound channels if the scenario plays out just right for a broadside shot too. It's just what I believe in, nothing more.

[DanWalker]

And THAT sir is one of the reasons this site is so great! We can have a respectful difference of opinion, without it turning nasty.
I will agree to disagree with you, and am sincerely grateful for your input on this.
It is a pleasure to have someone as knowledgeable as you to talk to about this kind of stuff. It beats the heck out of the gun range BS. "Them lead bullets aint worth a *** they just lead up your barrel!!!!"

[frontloader]

good morning gentlemen.thank you all for the informative and interresting responses. so from what ive read and understand,my .452 340 gr boolit at 1125 fps w/bhn of 8 will get the job done,if i do my job...an early post suggested my boolit might be harder. it got me thinking. so this morning i took three boolits from the same batch and retested with my lee lead hardness testing kit. these boolits were cast about 4 months ago. the indent measured .082 which is off the scale that came with the kit. .079 being bhn 8. i could be reading it wrong.either way i think this load ive worked up will get the job done. if i can get a deer within my range.... and i must say it is refreshing to have different opinions and act like gentlemen....THANK YOU

[41mag]

Hey Frontloader,

While mine is a bit lighter than yours, they are moving a bit faster as well. Here is a report of a very simple water test I did using the Lee C452-300RF from my 454 at 50yds.

Water Test... (http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=124036)

If you scroll down after the video you can see the actual boolit in the found condition. It penetrated 24'ish inches of water and two gal buckets coming to a hard enough stop against the third, to leave a perfect indention of the nose and a nice ring where it almost made it through.

while I know this isn't on particular par with your specific load, I used this same load and boolit three weeks back to roll an 80'ish pound hog rear over ears at 87yds. I know that the velocity was somewhere in the 1K range by that distance or possibly even less. I highly doubt you will have any issues with the load your using within the ranges your anticipating to use them.

Good luck with your hunt and be sure to let us know how it comes out.

[jhalcott]

Gentlemen, let ME mix this up some. I shoot a Contender in various calibers at deer with cast bullets from 135 grains (7MM) to 250 (.358JDJ). I get mushrooms like the ones pictured above 90% of the time ,IF I FIND THE SLUG!! MY idea of great bullet performance is a suddenly DEAD animal a few FEET from where I shot it. My normal alloy is ACWW and a hornady gas check. It has been several years since I used my Ruger super Blackhawk to shoot any thing live. Then I used a SWC 240 grain gas checked bullet at around 1200 fps. Ten deer fell to that gun/load and I only found one bullet from a quartering away shot about 80 to 85 yards. In near the hip and stopped outside the shoulder under the skin!