45-70 round ball

[PB234]

Thinking of 10 to 13 grains of Unique, ball pushed down till level with the mouth of the case. Do I apply lube over the ball when in case?

[frnkeore]

Yes and let me suggest this...... get a cheap .490 round ball mold or buy them at the store, then run them through a sizing die thats about the ID of your fired case mouth. They will shoot very well and not trip the rifling like a round ball will.

Frank

[725]

I use 9 gr of Unique with a .457 RB out of a very long barrel. (BC Classic) You are in the right load range.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Where does that "strip the rifling" baloney come from?

BvT

[Jim]

Baron, at the risk of speaking on his behalf, I believe he's referring to the circumference of the ball being stripped off as it engages the riflings. If the ball is introduced into the riflings at a higher than acceptable velocity, it can and will happen. With very little bearing surface to loose, it doesn't take much for that to happen.

With all due respect, Sir, it's not baloney, it's fact.

[frnkeore]

Yes, thank you, Jim.

Your velocity is very limited with exact groove fitting balls. If you use pure or very soft lead, the ball will bump up a little but, if you use hard lead, you will only have about .001 - .003 lenght bearing surface in the groove and a bit more in the land. Try pushing a groove size ball through your barrel with a cleaning rod and look at it. there will be little ingraving on it.

Frank

[longbow]

Different cartridge but same idea. I use 0.440" balls sized to 0.434" in my .44 mag Marlin with good results.

The sizing forms a nice "belt" around the equator for a little more rifling engagement per frnkeore and Jim's comments.

These shoot quite well for me over up to about 10 grs. Unique or other fast(ish) pistol powder. The .45-70 is a much larger volume so you might have to increase powder charge a bit but 10 to 13 grs. Unique should git 'er done.

Cheap and fun to shoot.

The collar button is another option and should give better accuracy.

Also, another option is Accurate Molds makes the 45-165C which should be a nice boolit for .45-70. I asked Tom to scale it down to .434" and bought one (43-165-B). It shoots very well out of my Marlin. These seem to tolerate significantly higher velocities than the RB and give very good accuracy to 50 yards anyway. I have to set up and try them at longer range yet. Good little plinkers or lightweight screamers.

Longbow

[PB234]

Thank you for all of the helpful information. I have some collar boolits to try and figure the round ball might be an inexpensive way to enjoy the rifle at short range and gentle recoil. The balls I ould use would be lead and there is some concern about leading. Probably OK if I drive them gentle and spread lots of lube over the boolit?

Also thanks for the mold suggestion as something a little heavier than the collar might be better.

[94Doug]

Holt Bodinson used 9 grains of unique over a round ball with 45-70, also .458 Lott. I have a pdf of the article if you want it. Liquid alox, ball pressed into the case.

Doug

[Ben]

Doug,

Send me that article.

Ben

[94Doug]

...on the way.

Doug

[PB234]

I would also be grateful if you sent a copy of the article to me. I shoot at Racine and Bristol. These in your neck of the woods?

[94Doug]

I am in the west central part of the State. I'll see if I can get that to you, I had Ben's email addy.

Doug

[Ben]

Got mine .....Many thanks Doug

Ben

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I've shot quite a lot of groove diameter RB in centerfire rifles at reasonable speeds without the alleged stripping. The Bodington reference above bears this kind of thing out. 9/10 grains of unique under a groove diameter RB in 45-70, alox coated, won't strip. I'm speaking of ACTUAL groove diameter, not NOMINAL. Now a BORE or very slightly over diameter, RB is a different creature. IT usually doesn't engage the rifling well. You can't drive it very fast at all. For the same reason that we like .358/.359 bullets for a .357 groove barrel. Alloy your RB to change diameters, as what is stamped on the box is rarely the truth of size.

Stripping suggests less than proper engagement and that's where the BALONEY comes in. Set up a situation of less than proper engagement, then caution about "stripping". Baloney. Properly fit RB do not strip at reasonable velocities, whether round or swaged to form a cylindrical belt. . I use lots of RB for bore measurement purposes and slightly larger than groove diameter RB carefully driven down a lubed bore come out as slick as the barrel finish permits. That is not stripping any more than if resonable velocity is used in firing.

The poster was asking if he should LUBE the ball after it was seated in the case. NO, that is too late for good results.

BvT

[PB234]

Thanks for the additional information. Alox it will be.

[Larry Gibson]

PB234

I also use a light coat of LLA on the RBs. Older Lyman manuals suggest 5 gr of #6 Pistol powder and I've found 5 gr of Bullseye to work as well. So I use 5 gr Bullseye with a single RB and found it was better for my than any Unique or other powder load. I seat the RBs so the circumferend of the RB is just below the case mouth then a very light roll crimp (if I even bother to crimp) is used to close the case mouth over the RB.

Larry Gibson

[Tallinar]

I'm intrigued by this round ball idea, and I intend to give it a try this winter after researching a bit.

I have quite a few .457 pure lead balls sitting around right now. By the sounds of it, I gather than it would be more ideal to take a .490 mold and size the ball down to .460 later. I've read that several folks testify that they use .457 for light loads with acceptible levels of success, though.

If I were to use these .457 balls with a few grains of Trail Boss (not quite sure how much - if anyone could suggest a starting load for this, that would be great), would it really be necessary to even lube them? When/where would one apply the lube, and what would be the consequence of not lubing them?

I'm really just looking at this for a light plinking round that could hit a 6 inch steel plate at 25 yards. My only concern is barrel leading, firing a .457 ball in a rifle that I traditionally stick to .458 with (I haven't slugged this gun yet). Should the soft lead obturate to a sufficient degree to seal the grooves?

Thanks for the conversation.

[frnkeore]

Tallinar,
It all depends on the velocity your looking for. If the load is to light, I doubt if it will bump up even pure lead. If your groove is .458, it's kinda hard to know what you need to do. If you cast with harder lead, the ball might be as large as .4585 but, you'll only know by casting. In any case I would keep the velocity below 1000 fps. Use a fast powder for pure lead like B'eye to try to bump it up and a slower powder for the harder lead, to try not to accelerate it as fast.

For lube, try a 50/50 mix of Vaseline/parrafine, push the ball even with the case mouth and fill the area around the ball.

Frank

[tacklebury]

I've had good luck using 10 gr. Unique under a .457 RB and in slightly faster 13 gr. loads I add a layer of thermal recept paper as a wad to protect the bottom of the ball and such. Set in place using a Lee expander die as a bullet seater for consistent depth and a kiss from the factory crimp die only. No deformation. ;) W/ 10 grains I get a 6" group at 100 and have killed several ground hogs with it. ;)

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/tacklebury/4570roundball.jpg

[nanuk]

has anyone tried a 3 ball load?

I'm thinking about a whitetail deer load here

[tacklebury]

Tried 3 ball and didn't like them. Without using some kind of wad or filler, you cannot keep the bottom balls in line. The .45-70 is actually a slightly tapered case. You'd have to use some kind of fiber wad etc. to keep the bottom ones off the powder. I tried 3 or 4 and had poor accuracy even at 25 yards. I had considered trying some .410 wads or something but haven't gotten there as of yet. ;)

[1Shirt]

I have shot 3 ball loads in both 45-70 and 444 with a degree of sucess at 25 yds. Can't recall the charges, but believe it was unique in both cases, and I did use a thin heavy paper wad over the powder. Balls were oversized for bore, run thru sizer for a little bit of a band, lubed all over with LLA, top ball seated half way out as shown in some of the pics on this thread. All loads stayed on paper at 25, and most were about 3-5" groups for the three balls. Don't know what good they would be other than maybe for fox/yote in the hen house routine. However, they were fun to load and shoot at the time.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[mroliver77]

I have shot RB in 45-70, 30-30 and .223. For 1000fps loads very little lube is needed. Alox, JPW even a little vasaline or other slippery stuff dobbed on the loaded ball work. Balls are very light for caliber and if fitted well give plenty of traction to spin the ball.
Shooting the .313 ball in 30-30 it penetrated 6" of sears catalog at 700ish fps. At 1400ish it only made 2" and went splat!. This is from a micro groove Marlin.
The .223 or Hornet will shoot rb with only a primer for propellent but a couple gr of Bulls Eye or "Titewad" work well.
J

[scattershot]

Those light Bullseye loads must look like dust in the bottom of a manhole. Do you use any kind of filler against the powder/

[frnkeore]

I made this up about 3 weeks ago. It's not 45/70 but you can scale it up. The rifle is a 8.15 x 46R. The groove of the rifle is .316 and the ball is .330, 00 buck shot. The primer in this case is 209 shot gun so, I can just push it out with a pencil. The rim around the primer seals between the breech block and case head, it's a tight seal and doesn't leak. The powder charge is 1.0 gr B'eye and it runs 705 fps with a 29" barrel. A friend did the same with his 32/40 and 00 buck and standard primers with success, also.

Frank
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524eb093ddf4110.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2568)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524eb094016c018.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2569)

[mroliver77]

I made this up about 3 weeks ago. It's not 45/70 but you can scale it up. The rifle is a 8.15 x 46R. The groove of the rifle is .316 and the ball is .330, 00 buck shot. The primer in this case is 209 shot gun so, I can just push it out with a pencil. The rim around the primer seals between the breech block and case head, it's a tight seal and doesn't leak. The powder charge is 1.0 gr B'eye and it runs 705 fps with a 29" barrel. A friend did the same with his 32/40 and 00 buck and standard primers with success, also.

Frank
[/URL][URL="http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2569"] (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2568)
That is neat Frank! What's cool is a range can be set up in the basement, garage or even the house if'n your single ;)

With 29" barrel there is prolly very little noise?

I use a tuft of dacron, tp or sometimes a wafer cut from a foam plate to keep tiny charges of powder against the primer.
J

[tacklebury]

Those light Bullseye loads must look like dust in the bottom of a manhole. Do you use any kind of filler against the powder/

Unique is not position sensitive and I've used as low as 2 gr. in .45 Colt cases and 6 gr. in .45-70 with zero so far ftf with regular primers. Some use Magnums, but I just haven't seen any issue with std. CCI Large Rifles.

[frnkeore]

Yes, very little noise and the balls will not go through a piece of 1" plywood at 50' so, you don't need much of a back stop.

Frank

[nanuk]

Frank, that is a light load.

I have shot 50cal RB using my old sling shot and it penetrated 3/4 in plywood....

Your round would work well for a rodent in the garden

[frnkeore]

It was ment for a 50 ft indoor target load, simualar to a Zimmerstutzen but, with a CF rifle. I didn't chrono a 2.5 gr B'eye (a full .3 cc dipper full) load but, it goes much faster. I down loaded my load untill I lost the sonic crack. What I first wanted to do was shoot it with just the shotgun primer but, it wouldn't exit the barrel. My guess is that the 2.5 gr load would be in the 1350 fps range with it's 54 gr ball (more powerful than a 22rf), as 1.6 gr still had a sonic crack.

Frank

[Jetwrench]

thermal paper has been mentioned but what do you fellers think about a lubed patch,like a muzeloader? Jetwrench

[Janoosh]

I'm using 10 grns Trailboss, or 10 grns Unique for a single 457 tumble lubed round ball. Just plinking and getting some trigger time with a H+R Trapdoor carbine. But, is a patched ball do-able? What is thermal paper? I know a ball seated on the most holy black is safe but won't a ball seated on smokeless raise pressure? A lesson is learned every day, and I've learned a lot here. Thanks to all.

[tacklebury]

Thermal Receipts are the type you get that have a shiney finish and are heat sensitive. Note that they discolor with heat but tend to avoid burning. I simply cut receipts into squares big enough to surround the ball and leave a tail. I put the tail into the case and press the ball down and squeeze like normal. I've done some like cups, but they don't seem to help with the leading much at higher velocities. ;) Here's a pic of some .22 balls with the wads on them. ;)

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/tacklebury/gamowithwads.jpg

[Jetwrench]

Janoosh, thermal recpt paper is mentioned in post #20 by tackelbury. I take it that he is refering to thermal reactive paper like comes out of gas pumps and from stores and such, anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong. As for is a patched ball do-able, I would think it would be, but I have never tried it, so I really cant say. I THINK a ball over any powder would have a lower pressure than a conical bullet due to the smaller bearing surface. I THINK a lubed patch would solve leading or striping problems if they were present, due to an ill fitted ball or any other reason. Key word there is think as I am a learner more than a teacher, so anyone feel free to corect me if I am wrong.:popcorn: Jetwrench

[Jetwrench]

tacklebury types faster than me. so there is your answer great pic btw. He He He they look like little swimers

[tacklebury]

Hehe thanks. 8) THese are the RB's for my .22 Muzzle loader converted Marlin Papoose. ;)

[Jetwrench]

oh really, now that sounds very intersting. Not to hijack the thread but I would really like to know more about the conversion, Jetwrench

[tacklebury]

Hehe here's the link to a little post on the process of testing it. ;)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=129107

[Janoosh]

Thanks, the pictures were worth the explanation. I have thermal receipts and will give it a try. They do look like swimmers, though. I read somewhere that in the 1700's to 1800's they tied a leather patch to the ball. Probably works the same as the swimmers. Now.... Pressure! I found the ball needs a crimp for proper ignition with Trail Boss. Tight bore in H+R trapdoor and I'm not getting any leading with lee snot. When I'm camera literate (another learning experience) I'll post some pictures.

[Jetwrench]

really cool I have wanted to try a 22 muzeloader Jetwrench

[tacklebury]

It's been a lotta fun. Can be done easily to most semi-auto .22's 8) Nice thing is this method doesn't remove it's ability to shoot regular too. ;)