BP in a modern cartridge

[DeanWinchester]

Some of you people are truly sad.

Sorry I asked and sorry I intruded upon your holy grounds.

[garbear]

The small bore will foul quickly with black powder. Many of these cartirges were designed using the smokeless powder. The 303 orgianly used black powder then transisioned to smokless. IF I was going to do this I'd use a grease cookie just below the bullets base. A good black powder lube on teh bullet also. Make sure there isn't a gap between the black powder and the projectile. I don't know about blackhorn209. I have used black horn209 in my 357 but I used thier load data.

I read a post on another site about members loading 7.62X39 with black powder to see how long the ak would cycle. Suprisling it cycled more rounds then I thought it would. I don't rember how many rounds. I am sure someone that knows a lot more then me will answer you better. Good luck post your results things like accuracy and how dirty the rifle gets......

Garbear

[JSnover]

You're almost there. Scroll down to the "Bottleneck vs Straightwall Cases thread."

[Don McDowell]

Why screw around with the fake stuff?
You're still going to have to clean the cases, to keep them from being ate up by the residue.
It just strikes me as somewhat silly that if you aren't going to shoot blackpowder then why not just shoot the smokeless?

[DeanWinchester]

You're almost there. Scroll down to the "Bottleneck vs Straightwall Cases thread."

Thanks!

[DeanWinchester]

Why screw around with the fake stuff?
You're still going to have to clean the cases, to keep them from being ate up by the residue.
It just strikes me as somewhat silly that if you aren't going to shoot blackpowder then why not just shoot the smokeless?




There's not always a reason for some rhymes.
.


;) Already answered that.


BTW, I suppose Blackhorn needs to be informed that their information is wrong then. They are calling their product non corrosive and that it can be cleaned with any oil based solvent just like smokeless powder. That was my real direction. I don't really want the hassles of cooking up a new recipe of bullet lube, and cleaning up cases after the fact, besides just tossing them in the tumbler.
Just thought it might be fun.

[Springfield]

I shoot my Colt 45 auto with real BP all the time in Wild Bunch/Cowboy matches with no problem. Seems to me someone here from Australia was shooting their Enfields with real BP with some success. Never used any of the substitutes except Pyrodex 20 years ago, never saw a reason why. Real BP is more fun and less corrosive in most cases.

[Don McDowell]

Well just go ahead and shoot the fake stuff without cleaning your cases and when they fall apart you may have a clue as to why......

[DeanWinchester]

I've seen the aftermath of pyrodex that was not cleaned up after. Nasty business that stuff.
Have any of you that actually used Blackhorn 209, experimented with it to test their "Non corrosive" claims? I may have to try that out in something simple like a .38 special and leave the case laying around for a while and see.

[Don McDowell]

There are pictures here someplace of cases that were fired with one of the 777 or similar fake powders, you might do a search and see if you can come up with them.
There was also an article published a year or so back about the residue from Blackthorn turning to something similar to sulphuric acid when left uncleaned in humid conditions...

[DeanWinchester]

Hmm, Not very "non corrosive" then is it? :)

[Don McDowell]

No not so much if presented with the right/wrong conditions.

[Don McDowell]

One other thing that would make me a bit hesitant to load Blackthorn in a bottleneck cartridge is the pessure the stuff builds.
I haven't looked at any of the data since it first came out but they only listed one 45-70 load that was trapdoor suitable.... That's waves a warning flag to me.

[RMulhern]

I'm more convinced than ever....that some postings need no response!!

[TXGunNut]

I dunno RM, was hoping I'd find a fun way to dispose of that 777 sitting on my shelf. ;)

[Don McDowell]

Shoot that 777 up, but just be mindful of cleaning the cases extremely well. I'ld think a trip thru a thumlers with ceramic media and a good soap solution would take care of em. Buuttt then we're back to wheres the gain over black?

[TXGunNut]

No gain over black but I spent hard-earned money for it before I saw the light. I'm too busy with actual load development projects to use it in my Sharps. I think I'll save it until I get a cannon or something. Those things go thru lots of powder.:bigsmyl2:

[NickSS]

When I was a kid and just getting the shooting bug I owned a 303 No. 4 MkI and a Peruvian 30-06 mauser rifle. I shot mostly surplus ammo in them that I bought for such ridiculously low prices that I hesitate to say what it was but I could get 303s cheaper than 22 RF ammo. Anyway one winter I went shooting in the snow during Chistmas holidays and blew away several hundred rounds in my 303. The Next spring I went back to my shooting place and found several hundred 303 bullets laying on the ground. They looked perfect except for rifling marks on them. I picked them up. Later that summer my favorite gun store was temporarily out of 303 ammo so what to do?? I took some spent 303 brass that was berdan primed with large diameter primers and using an ice pick I popped a spent primer out. Eye balling it I found that it looked like a winged musket cap sans wings would fit the hole. So a few clips with side cutters and a little thumb pressure resulted in a cap fitting in the hole. I stuck the case in the chamber of my rifle and pulled the trigger with a nice loud crack resulting as the cap fired. I knew nothing of reloading and nothing of powders for same at that time but I did have black powder for a ML I owned. So I loaded up 180 rounds using BP, dewinged musket caps and spent bullets. I crimped the bullets in the cases with a pair of side cutters and used elmers glue to hold the caps in the primer pockets a little better than plain friction did. I took these rounds to the range and proceeded to shoot them all off in a day. The results were that I had to elevate my sights to 600 yards to get on at 100 but they shoot every bit as accurately as did GI surplus ammo. Every round went off and the bore was relatively clean. The jacketed bullets seamed to scrape out fouling. Oh one other thing, each fired cap had three holes in it. one for the firing pin and two for the flash holes. I did not save that brass as I had no plans to reload more unless I found more bullets. Later using a lee loader I tried the same thing for my 30-06 with much the same results accuracy wise and fouling wise but standard rifle primers did not blow through.

[bigted]

nick...was spewing coffee thru my nose as i read your account of glue n tape n Yankee thinkin. i have had similar experiences with an old long tom shotgun and black powder with some type primers that i wallowed into the shotgun cap outer then thumbed back into the old paper cases...then a gob of bp with some cardboard over powder then nails n rocks n such as shot...lol what a memories...thanks for the stroll down the lane...i lived in coos bay in the hills outside east side thru these miraculous times...i also had such fun with a muzzle loader made with my hands from a two piece stock kit and also i had an old savage lever in 300 savage that i spent many hours hammering together ammo for with a loading kit i bought on the cheap that required a hammer and some place that the tap tap tap from it to not infuriate a pregnant wife while still being able to shoot bunch's of stuff and sometimes actually bring home grouse and sometimes a small black tailed deer for the stew pot.

ahhhhhh those were the days my friend !!!

as for the black-powder and the substatutes i say just do it and see. ive done more crazy stuff that made sense to me at the time...lived thru it and learned some valuable lessons from the whole experience. so go ahead my friend and return here with your fun times as i for one will read your experiments with glee and know that the gumption that i had as a kid is still alive and well and tempting folks to do stuff that others will look at and simply shake their heads at...dumfounded that some body would actually think up such stuff let alone do it...that is where the new thoughts and ways come from...its what our country was built on....thinking outside the box and wonderin.......WHAT-IF I...

so while some will ask the regular questions about your sanity and ad-monish you to return to sound ways...i and others that have admitted to these somewhat off hand experiments will smile and mutter..."rite on"...and re-live our rather off shelf ways from long ago........er maybe some from not that long ago.

[longranger]

Why not Trail Boss ? I have been playing with it in .32 Win. Spec. with very good accuracy as well in all of my straight wall cases.IMR list the math for just about any cartridge.Has a pressure curve close to B/P is very clean with a little smoke for fun.
1. Determine bullet seating depth,mark this location on the outside of the case.

2. Fill case up to that mark and weigh,thats your max load,divide by .7,thats your starting load.

Not a top velocity powder,but adequate and is a good powder.Cheaper than most powders most places.

[Don McDowell]

Trail boss is higher than the other powders. There's only 9 ounces to a can. so by the time you buy 2 cans to get a pound and jigger more it's a touch higher than other powders.

[martinibelgian]

If I were to try that loading technique in a 577-450 case, I'd probably blow myself to kingdom come with that stuff...

[longranger]

Yes Don you are correct,there's only 9oz. I had not noticed that.I think the powder is worth it for some applications, reduced loads for about any cartridge.
M.B. you could "blow yourself to kingdom come" if you use the powder contradictory to the directions put out by IMR.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

[Cannoneer]

I have an old Ishapore rifle I'm having a ball playing with, and I was wondering if anyone ever loads 7,62 NATO with BP or a substitute? Nope, there's nothing to be gained other than the fun of doing it. I've never loaded BP or BP substitute in anything so.....I have no clue how to go about it.

I was thinking of trying out a 200g gas check boolit over maybe some 777 or Blackhorn 209. Obviously the rest of the reloading world would think this mad, so there's not much by way of info. I know the Blackhorn is expensive, but it seems to burn cleaner. I have a few jugs of triple 7 that I have bought over the years, when Wal-Mart red tags them for cheap. Also, I would think by using the Blackhorn, I wouldn't have to use a different lube specific to BP. That right?

Thanks in advance.

First off, I'm glad there is another crazy person like me out there. Second, Blackhorn 209, 777, Shockleys Gold, APP, and Pinacle can be shot with standard wax lube used in smokeless or you can use SPG, Lyman's Black Gold or any other BP compatable lube. The 777 will give you higher pressures, but that will translate into higher velocity.

The 777 will also shoot cleaner if you compress it slightly. In fact, most of them will shoot cleaner if you compress them slightly and use a MAGNUM rifle primer. You are not trying to cram a Nitrocelulose/nitro glycerin Based Smokeless powder of unknown properties in a .308 case.

When the .303 British was first loaded it used a compressed pellet of BP that was dropped in the case BEFORE the neck and shoulder were formed on the case and then the bullet was inserted. Of course, back then, those early Enfields used Metford Rifling that was great with the BP loading but wore out quickly when the Brits switched from BP to Cordite. So the name of the rifle went from Lee-Metford to Lee-Enfield to indicate the new rifling design.

So go and have yourself some fun. Just drop your spent shells in a jug of water with a squirt of dish soap and a bit of white vinegar. Shake them up and rinse them out when you get home from the range in hot clear water and let dry.:Fire:

[Muzzlehatch]

Many years ago I tried loading 20 rounds of 7.5 mm/55 Swiss ammo with 3G BP as I had a .44 Colt Army revolver that used it, and didn't have any smokeless on hand. Just poured it in and thumb pressed the bullet over the powder and fired at 200 yards. Don't remember the results except that the gun didn't blow up and I never tried the experiment again.
I understand the the .303 Mark 1 cartridge used a very highly compressed 70 grain charge and gave off a big flash and a report similar to a .300 Magnum.

[Lonegun1894]

I say go for it and find out. BP and any substitute will develop lower pressures than smokeless does, so if you're safe shooting that rifle with smokeless, this stuff should be even safer. I am not saying this to hear about you blowing yourself or your gun up, so use your usual safety precautions, but the main thing different with BP and subs is that you have to be cautious to not leave an airspace between the powder and the bullet. I have dont this successfully, although using real BP, in .38 Special, .357 Mag, .45 Colt, .45 ACP, .30-30, .308. .30-06, and .45-70. All those worked well, except the POIs were lower than normal on a few. I then went back and loaded .38 Special and .30-30 with matchheads instead of powder to see what would happen. The .30-30 had much lower velocities along with the lower POI, but the .38 was a surprize. The 38 actually printed a group the same size as my usual smokeless groups out of this snubbie except it was a couple inches higher at 15 yds, indicating a slightly lower velocity, but close. Like I said earlier, I believe you will be perfectly safe using your powder as you suggest. Just watch the airspace and fill with something if you dont want to load the way i did in the above experiments. I just filled the case to the casemouth with BP, and then compressed it with the bullet. Yes, I know this raises pressures, but it also gave good accuracy in each case, most gave a clean burn, and no pressure signs. I am also using modern weapons with modern steels. I am not sure I would load antiques this same way, so use your head. I am much more conservative in my loads for my muzzleloaders than these cartridge guns, but keep it safe either way, having had a gun blow up in my hand when I was younger and much dumber. Didnt get hurt much, but it got my attention and taught me that there's curious and adventurous, and then there's plain stupid.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Be careful. You can get enough fffg in a 30-30 case with a 31141 on top to give you significant pressure signs.

BvT

[twildman]

I dunno RM, was hoping I'd find a fun way to dispose of that 777 sitting on my shelf. ;)

You could put it in a pile, light it and watch it go Fooofff......

[TXGunNut]

You could put it in a pile, light it and watch it go Fooofff......

Hmmm-just happen to have one of those chiminea pottery outdoor fireplaces. Wonder how big a flame a couple pounds of 777 and a couple more pounds of unuseable smokeless would make? Could probably cover the open side with foil just to keep any stray sparks from coming out, too. :popcorn:

[Ed in North Texas]

Hmmm-just happen to have one of those chiminea pottery outdoor fireplaces. Wonder how big a flame a couple pounds of 777 and a couple more pounds of unuseable smokeless would make? Could probably cover the open side with foil just to keep any stray sparks from coming out, too. :popcorn:

The way this year has gone, you need to make danged sure there are no sparks coming out. We don't need any more fires. What little bit of rain we've had hasn't made a whole lot of difference. The grass still crunches when you walk on it, though there's a few green shoots in the dead brown now.

[martinibelgian]

No, when using the powder according to the directions - If you fill a 577-450 cases to the base of the bullet with BP, you're probably at about 100 grains, if not more. Trailboss is a pretty fast-burning powder, and when the case volume goes up, that will cause problems. Might work fine in a 45-70, but when you more than double the case capacity, things will turn out pretty hairy... And let's not even mention the real BP express cartridges, where the powder/bullet weight ratio is even worse.

[cajun shooter]

My question is why do persons go to the BPCR section to ask questions about the fakes? Then they even defend the use of such powders and why you should shoot them for the easy clean up and the lube's can be anything.
If you want to shoot these fakes then this is America but why not go to the owners and moderators and request a thread that is for chemical formed powders or your choice as long as it is not Black Powder Subs because this they are not. To me they are nothing more than a way to circumvent the laws of many states that have primitive hunting seasons. 777 was made for inlines and in no way shape or form are they anything close to being what was intended. It's a shame to take what was once a pure step back in time and turn it into well I got my buck at 300 yards with my BP rifle. No stalking, or worrying if the cap will fire or using a leather hood to cover the flint and powder. What is the sport of shooting a powder that only smokes? You have no loud boom, sparks and flames from the barrel. You only have smoke which you would be writing in to some forum asking what can I do to cut down on the smoke I am getting when I shoot this 777?Just as in SASS they shoot the fakes and then sign on as being frontier shooters, Give me a Break!! PS For those of you who live where there is no BP, order it in. If forbidden by law then get all shooters to have the laws changed. Educate the ones who think all the wives tales are true.

[Springfield]

Cajun: Right on! Real bp forever, even in guns not designed for it.

[nwellons]

I know of one instance where BP was used extensively in a military Revolver designed for smokeless. The 1895 Russian Nagant 7 shot gas seal revolver had a lot of use in WWI with black powder because of Russian smokeless powder shortages.

I only shoot BP in my Nagants because I like the smoke, smell, and noise. I have no leading problems with my pan lubed boolits and clean up is easy enough for me. I shoot my .44 Russian antique revolver and my .42 Berdan Russian rifle every month at the range so adding the Nagants to the clean-up is no problem.

[DeanWinchester]

My question is why do persons go to the BPCR section to ask questions about the fakes? Then they even defend the use of such powders and why you should shoot them for the easy clean up and the lube's can be anything.
If you want to shoot these fakes then this is America but why not go to the owners and moderators and request a thread that is for chemical formed powders or your choice as long as it is not Black Powder Subs because this they are not. To me they are nothing more than a way to circumvent the laws of many states that have primitive hunting seasons. 777 was made for inlines and in no way shape or form are they anything close to being what was intended. It's a shame to take what was once a pure step back in time and turn it into well I got my buck at 300 yards with my BP rifle. No stalking, or worrying if the cap will fire or using a leather hood to cover the flint and powder. What is the sport of shooting a powder that only smokes? You have no loud boom, sparks and flames from the barrel. You only have smoke which you would be writing in to some forum asking what can I do to cut down on the smoke I am getting when I shoot this 777?Just as in SASS they shoot the fakes and then sign on as being frontier shooters, Give me a Break!! PS For those of you who live where there is no BP, order it in. If forbidden by law then get all shooters to have the laws changed. Educate the ones who think all the wives tales are true.


:not listening: Good lord, what's with all the hating? I didn't realize that purists were so sensitive. I apologize.

Personally I don't own anything that uses BP, I haven't done much with BP in anything and not really interested in much of it either. I just asked the question with the thought of goofing off and playing with something different. I didn't realize it was verboten to post it here.:?

[JSnover]

No need to get upset over the "new black," it's always good to have options. I have no beef with the new black powder rifles either, though I'm not interested in trying them. If smokeless powder and cartidge ammuntion had not been invented, the firearms would still have continued to evolve. Lots of folks would be burning charcoal to launch jacketed bullets in plastic sabots in their inline, stainless-barrel, synthetic-stocked front-stuffers and sizing up targets waaaaaaay out there through a variable, battery-powered scope. And we'd all think it was the greatest thing since the minie ball.

[montana_charlie]

I didn't realize that purists were so sensitive.
Now, you do. Learn from it ...

[Rafe Covington]

Now, you do. Learn from it ...

Spoken like a real *******.

Rafe

[cajun shooter]

You are taking what I said and trying to turn it around in your favor. I said this is America and your free to do and shoot what you wish. My problem is that the title header that you posted to is Black Powder Cartridge and your question has to do with fake powders. We have people do this all the time as they are trying to drive a Corvair to Corvette Rally. You also asked about lubes for BP and you don't even own a gun or perhaps have never even shot a BP gun to understand the difference. At the top of the topics section there is a place for your question and a few others. There is not a single word of hate in my post but you again are trying to make yourself correct. Why not do some research in our forum instead of using one of the topic sections to play around as you stated.

[TXGunNut]

My only problem with subs is they don't work for me, they're expensive, and they really aren't any easier to clean up after. My only problem with folks that use them is that they can't possibly be having as much fun as I am and I'm all about having fun and helping other folks do the same. Shooting BP and lead in a cartridge and gun of the era is like stepping back in time 120 years. There's nothing like it. But hey, to each his (or her) own.

[montana_charlie]

Spoken like a real *******.

Rafe
And, you should remember that as you head down the Crossfire Trail ... 'cuz I will surely remember you.

[bigted]

srry but i couldn't let this go. what is going on here amounts to exactly the same thing that has been alluded to above.......one would not go to a corvette owner that does all his/her own work on a car that he/her is totally in love with and cares very deeply about and has devoted years getting to know the car and ALL the mechanical differences and allowances as well as the tire preasure and wheel runout allowance and what oil makes it purr the best and ask this person persistently why his chevett misses when under acceleration. not only will he/she not know....but care very little about somebody's 500 dollor car.

yer better off asking a hells -angle how to tune up a rice burner.

just go experiment with your desired powder and rifle and go under the correct heading to ask questions that pertain to your path of endeavor.....then endeavor to persevere...lol

the question IS off topic so either tuck feelings inside yer jacket or prepare to be rubbed....or take a short walk to another thread and ask the same question. there is good answers here and prolly more to come if the temperment stays cool while some spout off about the misplaced question and resultant ruffled feelers.......allow us corvette like owners to be the premadona's that we have set our selves up to be [god knows we have put up the dollors and years of experimentation to safely instal some to a height of exelence]...and get the needed info you desire or go find another group that may have some useable answers for your questions.

PLEASE

[JSnover]

I have an old Ishapore rifle I'm having a ball playing with, and I was wondering if anyone ever loads 7,62 NATO with BP or a substitute? Nope, there's nothing to be gained other than the fun of doing it. I've never loaded BP or BP substitute in anything so.....I have no clue how to go about it.

I was thinking of trying out a 200g gas check boolit over maybe some 777 or Blackhorn 209. Obviously the rest of the reloading world would think this mad, so there's not much by way of info. I know the Blackhorn is expensive, but it seems to burn cleaner. I have a few jugs of triple 7 that I have bought over the years, when Wal-Mart red tags them for cheap. Also, I would think by using the Blackhorn, I wouldn't have to use a different lube specific to BP. That right?

Thanks in advance.

Not as OT as some people think, since there's no "Substitute Powder" section. A more appropriate location would have bee "Military Rifles" but let's not have a stroke over this. Maybe the Mods can move the thread so it can get back on topic.
Or maybe some of us can click into the "Pet Peeves" thread in Humor/OT...

[waksupi]

Go with the pet peeves section. For the most part, we do not care where you put a topic. Some places just have a better chance of being seen by interested parties.

Actually, there are some condescending posts that could have drawn infractions.

[Rafe Covington]

And, you should remember that as you head down the Crossfire Trail ... 'cuz I will surely remember you.

Any time and any where.

Rafe

[Whiterabbit]

Why not Trail Boss ? I have been playing with it in .32 Win. Spec. with very good accuracy as well in all of my straight wall cases.IMR list the math for just about any cartridge.Has a pressure curve close to B/P is very clean with a little smoke for fun.
1. Determine bullet seating depth,mark this location on the outside of the case.

2. Fill case up to that mark and weigh,thats your max load,divide by .7,thats your starting load.

Not a top velocity powder,but adequate and is a good powder.Cheaper than most powders most places.


Trail boss is higher than the other powders. There's only 9 ounces to a can. so by the time you buy 2 cans to get a pound and jigger more it's a touch higher than other powders.

I respectfully suggest that trailboss is in fact cheaper, and much cheaper than most if not all other powders. Why?

A full case (most accurate) of H110 for me comes out to about 51 grains of powder, give or take. Full case of trailboss is 16 grains, and most accurate is closer to 12.

So if a full pound is the same or slightly higher than most other powders that's OK by me, because the "per cartridge" cost of the powder is a fraction of high power powders.

[Don McDowell]

What sort of friggin IDIOT would shoot 51 grs of H110 in anything???????

[DeanWinchester]

Some of you people are truly sad.

Sorry I asked and sorry I intruded upon your holy grounds.

Thanks for the legitimate replies.

[Whiterabbit]

I don't understand, Don? 52.7 grains is Hornady's rated maximum for H110 in 460 S&W using their FTX bullet. 51.0 isn't even close to max for those of us who prefer not to push pressure limits.

If you would prefer, my gun is most accurate with 320 gn cast lead bullets using 40.0 grains of H110. The math still should work out to be cheaper per cartridge's powder use when using trail boss, even at the trail boss's higher price point.

If you would like to make the math even harder, my gun prefers 20 grains of #9 with 340 grain Penn cast bullets. I'm also pretty sure the math will work out in favor of trail boss as a cheaper per-cartridge powder at 12 grains, maybe even the full 16 grains.

[Don McDowell]

What ever flips your skirts up....

[bigted]

[B]BLACK...POWDER...CARTRIDGE...,,,...REMEMBER?? ....... NOT SMOKLESS POWDER...NOR...BLACK...POWDER...REPLICA'S.

we keep this nonsense up and someone is going get their udders in a PINCH!!!...rite-fully so.

so for those that have little experience here i would suggest that you maybe use more cotton in yer mouth//fingers then in yer ears//eyes....maybe step back and take a deep breath and figure how much this tripe will buy ya? there is a bunch of value in the wisdom here and i hate to see the ruffled feathers with no cause...specially about the fake stuff that crops up from time to time.......so please breath deeply and re-figure what possible good will come of all this

original question was how would black powder would act in a modern cartridge....think its been asked....n...answered.

[omgb]

Being the tinkering type, I've used BP in a number of modern cartridges. The biggest trouble with BP era cartridges like the 32-20 and 44-40 and the 45 colt is that modern cartridges don't have enough room. The balloon head shells did but they are a thing of the past. As to bottle neck rounds...well, a number of the old BP rounds were bottle neck. 40-70 comes to mind. I tried BP in the 32 Win SP. It works but I never got more than 1500 fps out of it. I never have tried it in the 30-06 but did give it a go in the 30-40 Kraig. Velocity was pretty pedestrian and the bore fouled quickly. It's fun to play with and it would do in a pinch...better than throwing rocks anyway but it's not very efficient. Straight walled cases work best.

As to the substitutes, they work too. 777 is especially hot. I can get BP and it's cheaper and a lot easier to work with so I use it. If it's not your cup of tea..that's OK by me. I used a lot of Pyrodex back in the late 70s and early 80s. It worked but at $23 a lb. vs. $14 per lb for BP why use it unless circumstances make it a necessity? It is corrosive...they all are, even good old BP. So, you clean with soap and water. No big deal. It's all about having fun. Enjoy!;)

[TXGunNut]

I've been thinking about it in .38 special. A 158 grn SWC should reduce the case capacity enough to make it work. Seems only natural, 38spcl (and 357mag) trace their lineage back to BP cartridges. Lyman even lists a few loads. 45acp would be cool too. Some folks don't feel either is a "modern cartridge" but that's OK, I've been called lots of things but can't recall "modern" being one of them.

[MikeS]

I don't know if it's still the same, but years ago when I lived in NY on Long Island IF you could find real Black powder it was something like 20X the price of Pyrodex (the only sub back then). The reason was because of all the red tape BS of getting a truck that was carrying BP over any of the bridges or tunnels that connect LI with the rest of the world. Back then if a truck was carrying BP they had to close the bridge to all traffic, then the truck with several escorts (in front, and in back, I forget but I think it was 2 of each for a total of 5 vehicles including the truck). So, it was buy a pound of pyrodex for $15.00, or buy a pound of real BP for something like $125.00! So I bought the pyrodex. At the moment now that I live in south FL I have finally found a gun shop that sells real BP, and so I will probably be getting some soon. In the mean time I have a pound of 777, and some pyrodex pellets (the 30gr equivalent for 44 and 45 revolvers) that I need to get rid of.

I have a .54 cal White Mountain Carbine, and a Ruger Old Army, can I use one grade of BP for both of them, or should I get 2 different powders? I'm assuming (and we all know what happens when you do that! :) ) that I would need FFg for the carbine, and FFFg for the revolver, is that correct?

And I would like to add yet another view of the real vs sub disagreement. I own a carbine that while not a 100% copy of some original gun, it is made to be a traditional BP carbine. I've only ever shot lead full bore sized projectiles out of it, I used Pyrodex because that's what I had, but other than that, everything else was traditional. I never could understand the inline muzzleloaders, and not being a hunter, I hadn't thought of their being used just to get more time in hunting (which I just learned by reading this thread), but now they make sense, sort of, I would never want one, but now I understand why they exist.

I don't really think what powder you pour down your barrel makes THAT much of a difference, if it's real, or fake. It's the way either is being used that is more important (at least to me). If somebody is shooting a traditional designed ML, and is using either a patched ball, or a minnie ball, or other design lead full sized boolit, using real percussion caps (or flintlock), it shouldn't matter that they're shooting 777 rather than real BP. I mean on the other end, if somebody has the latest in-line ML, with a rangefinding scope, and is loading a saboted jacketed bullet in their 'mossy oak' camo gun, using shotgun primers, but they're shooting real BP, which one would one of you traditional guys want to deal with? If it were me, I'd want to go with the guy that has the White Mountain Carbine (or similar type ML) anytime over somebody all decked out in camo with their 21st century ML! But then I also feel the same way about people that shoot Cowboy Action shooting using super light loads, shooting a cartridge that was designed just for the sport (the 45 Cowboy Special) rather than full power 45LC loads, and has a leveraction that's setup so if they breath on the lever it's going to drop, etc.

I've never shot real BP yet, and I'm curious, I've heard BP recoil described as being more of a push than the harsh bang of smokeless, and the subs that I've shot they seem to be somewhere in the middle, a push/bang sort of thing, when I shoot the real stuff, will the recoil in a 45 revolver be much different than when shooting Pyrodex? Will the .54 carbine have less recoil using real BP that when shooting Pyro?

[JSnover]

I've never shot subs but I have shot BP and smokeless in my 45-70 at comparable pressure levels: 400 grain boolit @ 1000 fps. Recoil seemed to be about the same, just not quite as "sharp" with black. As far as cleaning goes, I couldn't bring myself to pour hot soapy water into the rifle. I know its' ok. I just can't do it. But... Traditional cleaning methods worked. For long term storage, after the last clean patch I flush the bore with carb or brake cleaner and swab the action with alcohol, then I go over it with GI bore cleaner, just like all my 'modern' guns.

[waksupi]

I've never shot subs but I have shot BP and smokeless in my 45-70 at comparable presure levels: 400 grain boolit @ 1000 fps. Recoil seemed to be about the same, just not quite as "sharp." As far as cleaning goes, I couldn't bring myself to pour hot soapy water into the rifle. I know i t' ok. I just can't do it. But... Traditional cleaning methods worked. For long term storage, after the last clean patch I flush the bore with carb or brake cleaner and swab the action with alcohol, then I go over it with GI bore cleaner, just like all my 'modern' guns.


Pouring hot soapy water in the barrel IS the traditional way of cleaning! And still is for people shooting corrosive primers.

[JSnover]

I know. I figure I have 30-45 years left to get my mind right.

[bigted]

I know. I figure I have 30-45 years left to get my mind right.

bout spewed my coffee here....mind rite indeed!!! i believe i got about that many years left as well but ..."get my mind rite"??? shoot...that aint hapenin!

as for cleaning a single shot breech loader....faster and funner then any smokeless i ever really got clean....BRASS N ALL...

unless ya dont match the boolit to the bore or shoot a short case in the chamber then you wont have to mine the barrel for lead and then the cleaning is just a snap...REALLY! three spit patch's and three clean patch's and oil to soot.......DONE!!!

[cajun shooter]

There is no need to pour soap and water down your barrel after shooting real BP. Bp products are sold at all stores that stock the powder. The product of choice is called
Ballistol. It is both in spray and liquid. It was invented by the Germans just before WW1 It was meant as a cleaner for steel, wood, leather and even could be used as a wound dressing. You may take the liquid and pour two ounces into 14 oz of water into a spray bottle. Spray the gun barrel inside and outside. Run a bore brush through and the patches until the barrel shows clean. Follow with a good bore oil and you are finished. You may use a patch soaked with the Ballistol to clean the internal parts also.
The days of spit and hot water with soap have gone the way of the horse and buggy.

[Springfield]

I disagree. Why would I want to spend good money on any BP bore cleaner when regular Murphy's Oil soap and hot water works great? And also smells much better. Maybe I'm just cheap.

[w30wcf]

..... BP and any substitute will develop lower pressures than smokeless does........

Not true of all smokeless powders. See chart below.
ALSO....Look at the high pressure that Trailboss generated!!!

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/pressurecomparisons.jpg

w30wcf