Getting Back into 45-70

[Uncle Ji]

Back 30+ years ago I used to reload 45-70 using cast 405 grain cast plain base Lyman and IMR-4198 mild loads for my Dad's Trapdoor Springfields. He sold these as well as all reloading dies YEARS ago. Recently I acquired a Gibbs Arms Summit rifle in 45-70. I have already have some plain base 405 bullets as well as IMR-4064, and IMR-3031. I'm just looking at medium loads at most anywhere from 1400 to 1700 fps. Anyone here load plain bases with these powders? I'd like a starting load using these powders and bullets. THANKS!

[Uncle Ji]

Here's some pictures of my new rifle:

http://www.e-gunparts.com/images/ebay/gunbroker/SMLE_navyarms4570_08.jpg

http://nas4.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/064594000/64594551/pix848615174.jpg

http://nas4.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/064594000/64594551/pix848615315.jpg

[Phil]

Kind of a neat looking little rig! So many toys, so little money. Sigh.......

Cheers,

Phil

[dromia]

An Enfield in 45-70 WOW!

What barrel is on it, twist, no of grooves etc?

What's the throat like, have you taken a chamber cast?

Hope those Gibbs people didn't carve up a nice original rifle to make it though.

[Guido4198]

I've had great success with a 400 gn. cast in front of 45.0 gn. IMR 3031. Mv= 1517 ( ave.) Shoots about an inch @ 100 yds. out of my Guide Gun. The first ones I made up were hard cast....hit a Whitetail in the brisket from 30 yds. face-on... the slug went diagonally all the way through the body...exiting the hind leg on the opposite side.
Hope this helps...
cheers,
Don

[PPpastordon]

Uncle Ji;
Welcome in your return to a great cartridge. And also, I really like your choice for a .45-70! Mine are all single shots. I have a Siamese Mauser action, but can no longer afford to convert it. Such is life. A Gibbs conversion is the least expensive way to a bolt action for me - unless they have greatly increased their prices!
You should get a lot of good information from this board. Sorry, but a recent move has left me with no reloading data available at the moment. But I usually use the Lee 340 grain and 405 grain plain base boolits and 4198.

[Buckshot]

....................Dromia, I'm afraid they did do the alteration naturally to original rifles. How nice they were beforehand I don't know. Since the Commonwealth used the various mks of the Lee Enfield until the late 50's, there was a very pleantiful supply of the more common models around. I think sales were slowing down so they had to do something with them.

If you'll recall, the "Gnomes" at Century were creating MkVII Jungle carbines and another alteration with no previous real life model to base them on. They were just different and it helped to move some inventory. Ditto Swedish Mausers in the mid 90's. Kimber did wholesale slaughter on'em via plastic or wood stocks and high scope mounts to clear the bolt handles.

At the time they were turning $79 (M38's) and $59 (M96)'s into $300 entry level sporters. But as we all know now, a M38 in good shape will fetch $375+ and a M93 is rapidly approching $300. I have 2 articles from 'Rifle' magazine having to do with altering the SMLE. One is a conversion to .444 Marlin and the other was a conversion to 45-90. So the idea at least has been around for some time.

It looks as if they did a very clean and tidy alteration. The work seems to fit and it looks nicely done. I sure wouldn'tbe afraid to load the 45-70 to 40K pressure levels in that configuration.

Uncle Ji. one of the best things about the 45-70 is how forgiving a cartridge it is, and how even a bit of care in loading is usually rewarded with some fine shooting. Of those 2 powders you mentioned, IMR3031 would be the best for a reduced load, but I'm with PPpastordon and his recommending 4198. Use 28.0grs of that and a 405 and have a ball. IMR3031 is THE powder for the 45-70 for the upper end of things and a lighter charge of 4198 will accomplish the same, and cheaper to boot.

With that 4064 you can fill up the case and cork it with a 405 and then let your favorite son in law try it out. Should be entertaining :-)

...................Buckshot

[Larry Gibson]

I've a Siamese Mauser 450-400-70 (ok, a 45-70 but please allow me my hallucinations...) I normally use GC bullets of 400 gr weight or higher but a few months ago I picked up some commercial cast 413 gr ones from Midway. I load them over 43 gr of 4895 with a 1 gr dacron filler. Velocity is 1572 fps (that is a max load for the bullet as accuracy goes south with any heavier load). ES for the 10 shots (photo below) was 42 fps and the SD was 12 fps. Group is right at 2" which is good for the 2.5X scope with coarse crosshairs. You may find that load a little punishing with the military stock and buttplate. If so then I'd suggest 36 gr 4895 with the dacron filler. It runds 1369 fps and is comfortable to shoot in my H&R Officers Model Trapdoor. Similar loads with 4064 or 3031 should work fine but you'll have to tweak them a gr or two in either direction for best accuracy, all part of the fun.

Larry Gibson

[arkypete]

A question
Every SMLE/Enfield I've ever shot, delivered a kiss on the cheek akin to Joe Frazier letting fly. Does this configuration have a different shaped butt stock.
A 303 Brit is a sweet, kind, gentle cartridge compared to some of the enthusiastic 45-70 loads
Jim

[Uncle Ji]

A question
Every SMLE/Enfield I've ever shot, delivered a kiss on the cheek akin to Joe Frazier letting fly. Does this configuration have a different shaped butt stock.
A 303 Brit is a sweet, kind, gentle cartridge compared to some of the enthusiastic 45-70 loads
Jim

It has the cool original brass butt plate with trapdoor which i'll keep and just add a slip-on recoil pad. I'm starting mild and working my way up until body says ENOUGH, don't want to undo 2 recent back surgeries. :-D
http://www.e-gunparts.com/images/ebay/gunbroker/SMLE_navyarms4570_06.jpg

[arkypete]

Uncle Ji
For what it's worth, after looking at you rear sight Lyman, Williams or Marples makes an insert that makes their rear sight like yours into a peep sight. Seems like a great idea for having a peep sight with the headache of drilling and tapping for a reciever sight. All you need to do is remove the buckhorn blade and install the peep blade.
Jim

[45nut]

http://home.earthlink.net/~chevyken/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/websmle45-70.jpg

There is my No1Mk3 45-70. Several years ago I dropped off a 50.00 rifle and 3 + years later after almost giving up I finally got my rifle back from the 'smith. He rebarreled it to match the original contours as best he could but could not make it any more than a single shot,,,feeding from the magazine was a no-go. Fast forward a couple years and Gibbs Rifle FINALLY offered replacement magazines,,i ordered one and my rifle then proceeded to the repeating class. I had a jeweler friend silver solder a 1/2 of a key blank to make a simple peep.
The brass buttplate does let you know something happened............

[Uncle Ji]

http://home.earthlink.net/~chevyken/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/websmle45-70.jpg



Extremely cool, what load you shoot?

[Uncle Ji]

Back 30+ years ago I used to reload 45-70 using cast 405 grain cast plain base Lyman and IMR-4198 mild loads for my Dad's Trapdoor Springfields. He sold these as well as all reloading dies YEARS ago. Recently I acquired a Gibbs Arms Summit rifle in 45-70. I have already have some plain base 405 bullets as well as IMR-4064, and IMR-3031. I'm just looking at medium loads at most anywhere from 1400 to 1700 fps. Anyone here load plain bases with these powders? I'd like a starting load using these powders and bullets. THANKS!

I am really pissed. It's been over a week since vendor NUMRICH ARMS received my payment but no gun, no emails until today I finally get an email stating that this gun is on BACKORDER. This was a gunbroker auction win. How can a discontinued gun from a out-of-business company (Gibbs Arms) be on backorder? Was it sold to someone else? Did this gun even exist before this auction was put up for bid? I'm awaiting their email reply as they were already closed by the time I opened the email. I assumed Numrich Arms was reputable vendor but am now hearing horror stories in other forums. Numrich arms has the honor of being my first negative online gun purchase of over a dozen.

[Buckshot]

................I'd call personally and find out what's up. If they said they'd have to ship Tuesday (say) and it's agreeable to you, fine. If they had no definate answer I'd demand my money back for misrepresentating that they were selling 'On Hand' merchandise, and then make a complaint report to Gunbroker.

There are people on E-Bay who do this type thing. They'll post an auction for stuff they don't have, but that is available to them (hopefully). Not ethical.

.................Buckshot

[NickSS]

A really accurate 45-70 load I have used for years is 42 gr of 3031 and a Lyman 457124 400 gr boolit. In my #3 and my Marlin 95 it shoots three shot cloverleafs at 100 yards when I do my part.

[Uncle Ji]

I may see imy rifle yet though my confidence is not high at the moment, here's Numrich Arm's reply in today's email:
"We apologize for the confusion, our order system moved your order to a Backorder status for no reason. It appears to be a glitch in the server and is being addressed by our IT staff. Your order is here and is planned to be shipped out today, the rifle has not been lost or sold or misplaced, it is packed and ready to be shipped to you. Again we apologize for the confusion, but your order is slated to be shipped out and you will be emailed once this happens."

It supposedly shipped today though the tracking number they gave does not work. Hopefully it gets here by next Friday.

Nick, thanks for the 3031 load recipe, is that bullet plain base or gas check?

[MtGun44]

I can recommend my favorite load in .45-70, used in my Marlin to take
a wildebeeste and zebra with one shot each so far, plus lots of dead
targets!

RCBS 405 GC, 57.0 W748, Fed 215M primer in RP brass.
50/50 lead/linotype, no heat treat, sized .459", annealed
gas check. Works exactly the same with a Rem 405 or
Speer 405 jacketed bullet, too.

Chrono shows about 1750 in Guide Gun, recoil is "authoratative", but
not punishing. But would agree on the slip on buttpad. I use a
thick 'Kick EEZE' pad.

Typical groups are 1-2" at 100 yds.

Plink with 10-12gr Unique and cast 405, can leave of the GC if you
want. Very mild and accurate.

Bill

[SharpsShooter]

One of my pet loads with the Lyman 457193 (420gr ) is 43gr of 4064. I get 1400fps from my Marlin 1895 and fine accuracy too. That load generates 1753 ft-lbs of energy and if zeroed at 100yds, it is 23" low at 200. Recoil is not bad at all and while it is not the hottest load in the books, it will work for most anything here in the states at reasonable ranges.


SS

[Nardoo]

Accuracy loads in my Ruger are 40 gns of IMR 3031 with the Lyman 457124 for 1320 fps and 50 gns of IMR 3031 behind the RCBS 405 gn GC for 1680 fps.
My Marlin loved 45 gns of H4895 with the Lyman 457122 at 1430 fps.
Nardoo

[Uncle Ji]

Bill, thank you very much for your 748 load info, I have quite a bit of 748 for my 30/30 and 223 loads. Am I to assume that due to 748 being ball powder I have to use large magnum rifle primers for reliable ignition? All I have is large rifle primer so I guess I better buy some magnum primers.

SS Your 4064 load sounds very promising, I have quite a bit of 4064 on hand for mt 30-06 and 270 loads so I'll deffinately give it a try, thanks!

Nardoo thanks for the 3031 info. Do you know what the velocity threshold is when gas checks become necessary? I'm planning on keeping my velocity below 1600 fps. Thanks.

[MtGun44]

Uncle Ji,

I just used the mag primer because it is a lot of ball powder. You may
have good luck with the F210 primer. As a matter of fact, if you have
WW LG rifle primers, I'd give it a try as the WW primers are all pretty
hot primers in my experience - as a matter of fact, I remember that the
pistol primers are marked 'for magnum or regular loads'. Maybe the
rifle primers, too. If you have access to a chrono, look at the velocity
variation, or otherwise, look for vertical stringing if you think you
may have poor ignition. I've had ignition problems in the .45-70 with
F210 primers and Reloader 7, like squib loads with half the powder
fused and blackened but not ignited! VERY weird and I gave up on
Reloader 7 as I was down to the last ounce or so anyway. It would
probably work OK with a mag primer, but the W748 is so good I
quit looking.

Don't overlook 10-12 gr Unique as a great plinking load. No need for fillers or
anything silly like that and great accy in my gun with nearly zero recoil.

Have fun.

Bill

[hunter64]

I was thinking of getting back into 45-70 myself and I would like to get a Sharps or something like that but I don't have the money right now. Any one have one of the Buffalo Classic 32" by NEF? I have read good things about them and they are strong, the trigger housing looks goofy and will have to be changed or modified but for a few hundered bucks it will at least get me shooting the old cartridge again.

[45nut]

getting back into 45-70's myself a lil bit...kinda feels nice to carry 4000grs of boolit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/100_0584w.jpg

[Nardoo]

Uncle Ji,
With my alloy of w.w. plus 2% Sn and plain base boolits I find my accuracy goes to hell at about 1500 fps.
Having said that I have shot the Saeco 645 480 gn PB made of Lyman No 2 alloy to 1690 fps with great accuracy and no leading. That load is 50 gns of IMR 3031 and is a real treat off the bench. A friend put that same boolit at 1900 fps out of his custom SMLE straight through a sambar hind and when he dug it out of the hillside behind was so unmarked it could have been lubed and loaded again.
Bullet hardness is something to take into account.

[SharpsShooter]

I was thinking of getting back into 45-70 myself and I would like to get a Sharps or something like that but I don't have the money right now. Any one have one of the Buffalo Classic 32" by NEF? I have read good things about them and they are strong, the trigger housing looks goofy and will have to be changed or modified but for a few hundered bucks it will at least get me shooting the old cartridge again.

One of my shooting friends bought one recently and He just about cleaned me out for loaded ammo to test. What we discovered was that it shot every load I had into less than 2" at 100yds and several loads into under an inch. The loads it liked the best were 350-450gr boolits at velocities right up to 1600fps with both black and smokeless. Nothing wrong with the BC at all.

SS

[hunter64]

Sharpshooter: I jumped over to the Marlin forum and did a bit of reading yesterday and they love them also. The only real draw back to the looks of the rifle is the goofy plastic trigger guard. I have a friend that runs a foundry and I am going to make a mark up of a 1885 High Wall trigger guard and fit it to the Buffalo Classic to make it look better to me. Who knows, I am sure with enough advertising I could keep myself busy on the side because everyone I talk to hates the trigger guard and wishes it was at least steel if not make it look like a Sharp's or a High Wall.

[Uncle Ji]

Though not listed on their website or catalog from what I gather the older steel trigger guards are still available from NEF/H&R if you give them a call. I have read somewhere of people replacing the plastic trigger guard with a brass one from a muzzleloader though I don't recall which particular trigger guards was used. I think a brass trigger guard wouls add some additional class to the BC.

[Uncle Ji]

The saga of Smelly (SMLE) Nelly I think is finally over, she has finally arrived! [:D] Nice dark walnut stock, nickel plated bolt & trigger, 100% blue on barrel with cosmoline still in action parts like the safety so i'm guessing never fired since leaving Navy Arms. She comes up to the shoulder nicely with sights lining up naturally. Working the bolt is very smooth even from the shoulder thanks to the cock on closing bolt. Also very easy to uncock, just open bolt again and hold trigger while closing. Trigger pull alittle stiff but i'll be stone it soon enough. She is in fine shape the grand daughter of the 1879 Remington-Lee Navy. My dies & brass are on it's way already having 50 405 grain cast plain base bullets on hand. Can't wait to shoot her. Not bad at all for $300 INCLUDING SHIPPING. [:D][:D][:D] Range report will follow.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/Ahnkochee/mini-P1010002-3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/Ahnkochee/mini-P1010003-3.jpg

[No_1]

She is right fine looking. How many rounds will she hold?

Robert

[QUOTE=Uncle Ji;149932]The saga of Smelly (SMLE) Nelly I think is finally over, she has finally arrived! [:D] Nice dark walnut stock, nickel plated bolt & trigger, 100% blue on barrel with cosmoline still in action parts like the safety so i'm guessing never fired since leaving Navy Arms. She comes up to the shoulder nicely with sights lining up naturally. Working the bolt is very smooth even from the shoulder thanks to the cock on closing bolt. Also very easy to uncock, just open bolt again and hold trigger while closing. Trigger pull alittle stiff but i'll be stone it soon enough. She is in fine shape the grand daughter of the 1879 Remington-Lee Navy. My dies & brass are on it's way already having 50 405 grain cast plain base bullets on hand. Can't wait to shoot her. Not bad at all for $300 INCLUDING SHIPPING. [:D][:D][:D] Range report will follow.
QUOTE]

[Uncle Ji]

Was advertised to hold 3 but another forum member who has an identical rifle states he can get 5 rounds into the magazine of his gun. I'll have to verify after I get brass here to reload.

[MtGun44]

Looks like a close relative of my ragdoll cat Sam in your pic.

Bill

[MtGun44]

:-D Sam, the ragdoll.

Bill

[Uncle Ji]

Hi Bill, thanks for the picture of Sam he's a handsome devil. My Siamese Misha I found in my garage one morning 10 years ago abandoned by her momma, Misha was a runt but now she's obese at almost 15 pounds. She has a strange interst in firearms always coming around when I have one out.